Conception and Birth of Believers

[Gregg]

God conceives faith in the heart of a man, and He gives birth to the one believing in Him. Those 2 things are the work of God.

In between conception of faith [noun] and our believing [participle], a man must believe [verb] in the Person of God and in His testimony of Christ; he does not believe as contractual work requiring payment but because it is an expectation and command of God, an act of obedience according to God's will. That act of obedience is his work made possible by God.

"who were born not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God" (John 1:13 LITV).

"For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;" (Eph 2:8 LITV).

"for we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God before prepared that we should walk in them" (Eph 2:10 LITV).

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God. And everyone who loves Him who begets also loves the one who has been born of Him" (1Jn 5:1 LITV).

​

 

[childeye]

God conceives faith in the heart of a man, and He gives birth to the one believing in Him. Those 2 things are the work of God.

In between conception of faith [noun] and our believing [participle], a man must believe [verb] in the Person of God and in His testimony of Christ; he does not believe as contractual work requiring payment but because it is an expectation and command of God, an act of obedience according to God's will. That act of obedience is his work made possible by God.

"who were born not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God" (John 1:13 LITV).

"For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;" (Eph 2:8 LITV).

"for we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God before prepared that we should walk in them" (Eph 2:10 LITV).

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God. And everyone who loves Him who begets also loves the one who has been born of Him" (1Jn 5:1 LITV).

​

Great scriptures Gregg. Some people have a problem with such a concept because it eliminates what the dictionary describes as free will. And without free will and free choice, then God becomes the author of sin. This brings forth in believers of free will, a passion to defend God. They reject such interpretation of scripture and resign to taking the responsibility for sin upon themselves rather than believe God would make people sin. So through this line of reasoning either man is to blame for sin via a free will or God is blamed for predestining man to be a sinner.

Since Satan plays both ends against the middle, he wins either way. For Satan ends up being able to place doubt on the Character of God through that image that is in man, or that Image of Creator that is in heaven.

But the Christ destroys such doubt since in him is the true Image of God both in heaven and in mankind. In other words there is a scenario where neither God nor man is to blame for sin which only the pure of heart will see and believe.

Therefore, the truth is that there is a scenario where neither man nor God are to blame. And this is a mystery revealed and contained in the Gospel of Christ. Where God remains Holy and mankind is delivered Holy and blameless, while the works of Satan are defeated.

 

[4afaithfulone]

The will of God is His Word, that is His last will and testament that we should live by. We have free will to choose to do God's will or to reject The Christ of God to walk in the darkness as a wonderer in this life which dictates the next life as well apart from God where the devil rules like Cain was sent.
God uses men for His purposes, according to their heart, if they have a heart to kill, then God turns them over to their reprobate mind as they have thought in their heart. He touches no one! For He is not a murderer, nor a liar. God also uses willing hearts to do good to others whom He wants to bless. God would never make a wicked one good to set him up for blessing, nor a righteous one do evil against their will to be cursed. God does allow the devil to test and tempt man as we seen in the story of Job, but God is always able to restore us for faithfulness during our trials.
Our life is created by our own actions. When we obey God's will/Word in a situation, He blesses us in His own way. When we walk contrary to Christ throwing The Word to the ground or turn to the left or right to go around it in our choices, we will reap the consequence of those actions and eat the fruit that it produces. We can not have saved ourselves because we had unclean spirits that want nothing to do with the Word, why do you think that the ungodly HATE when you bring up the name JESUS? He is the Word whom became flesh and is torment for those who have unclean spirits indwelling them. See, these two never even seen Jesus before, but the unclean spirits in them knew who he was:
Matt 8:28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? KJV

The error in the church is that they do not understand that Saved to live again, and Chosen/Elected to rule and reign with Christ inheriting the kingdom of God are two different things. You can not be saved outside of receiving Christ as your Savior and Lord, but Saved just means you will live again, but in what condition of living will you have earned from your rewards?
1 Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV
Clearly we can see from this, that those of continued sinful lifestyles will not see the kingdom of heaven, nor inherit
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
KJV
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
KJV
To be saved does not mean made holy, nor to excuse us from all disasters in our life for those come from our consequences of our actions to keep us walking straight instead of crooked. We were scheduled for total destruction at the end of this age in the GWThrone judgment, but Christ died to purchase us back from our sin debt, and gave us time/Grace to be redeemed as we are allowing the Spirit to renew our thinking and doing in line with Christ.. the living Word that indwells our heart.

 

[Karl]

FREE WILL, I hear a lot about that?????

Hummmm, I don't believe I had free will before I was born again, ...I realized drugs would kill me so I stopped, but I found my high through alcohol, after years of seducing married women I made a pledge to stop committing adultery, but I just turned to fornication, I personally believe the last person that had a free will was Adam, all of his descends have been born in his image and resemblance with our wills in bondage to sin, we can't stop sinning even when we WILL not to, ...I don't see how that can be called a free will.




Good post Gregg,

May I add a little to it?

At the moment of conception our Father is the Holy Spirit and the ovum is the Word of God.

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible (Father), by the word of God (ovum), which liveth and abideth for ever. 1Pe 1:23

So then, just like we know who are earthly parents are, when born again we will know who our heavenly parents are, ...our Father is the Holy Spirit and our Mother is a particular verse from the Word, ...just like Peter gave what verse (s) were used when he was born again.

For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 1 Pet 1:24, Is 40:6-8

And just like we know what day we were born physically, we will also know what day we were born again.

 

[FreeGrace]

God conceives faith in the heart of a man, and He gives birth to the one believing in Him. Those 2 things are the work of God.

Could you cite the verse that says that God "conceives faith in the heart of a man", please? The action of believing God's promise of eternal life doesn't require conception.

In between conception of faith [noun] and our believing [participle], a man must believe [verb] in the Person of God and in His testimony of Christ; he does not believe as contractual work requiring payment but because it is an expectation and command of God, an act of obedience according to God's will. That act of obedience is his work made possible by God.

"who were born not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God" (John 1:13 LITV).

"For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;" (Eph 2:8 LITV).

"for we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God before prepared that we should walk in them" (Eph 2:10 LITV).

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God. And everyone who loves Him who begets also loves the one who has been born of Him" (1Jn 5:1 LITV).​

​

I don't find any mention of faith being conceived in the heart of man in these verses.

 

[FreeGrace]

Great scriptures Gregg. Some people have a problem with such a concept because it eliminates what the dictionary describes as free will. And without free will and free choice, then God becomes the author of sin. This brings forth in believers of free will, a passion to defend God. They reject such interpretation of scripture and resign to taking the responsibility for sin upon themselves rather than believe God would make people sin. So through this line of reasoning either man is to blame for sin via a free will or God is blamed for predestining man to be a sinner.

Which is why this concept cannot be true.

Since Satan plays both ends against the middle, he wins either way.

Actually, he is the great loser.

For Satan ends up being able to place doubt on the Character of God through that image that is in man, or that Image of Creator that is in heaven.

Nothing he does makes him a winner. He's so self deceived it's amazing.

But the Christ destroys such doubt since in him is the true Image of God both in heaven and in mankind. In other words there is a scenario where neither God nor man is to blame for sin which only the pure of heart will see and believe.

Therefore, the truth is that there is a scenario where neither man nor God are to blame.

Actually, man IS to blame for his sin. Rom 1:20 says that no one has any excuse. If man isn't accountable, why did Jesus Christ die for man's sins? If no one is to blame, then there would be no need for Christ's payment of sin. Someone surely is responsible for sin. And since Christ died for the sins of the whole world (1 Jn 2:2), it is clear that man is responsible and accountable for his sins.

 

[FreeGrace]

The will of God is His Word, that is His last will and testament that we should live by. We have free will to choose to do God's will or to reject The Christ of God to walk in the darkness as a wonderer in this life which dictates the next life as well apart from God where the devil rules like Cain was sent.
God uses men for His purposes, according to their heart, if they have a heart to kill, then God turns them over to their reprobate mind as they have thought in their heart. He touches no one! For He is not a murderer, nor a liar. God also uses willing hearts to do good to others whom He wants to bless. God would never make a wicked one good to set him up for blessing, nor a righteous one do evil against their will to be cursed. God does allow the devil to test and tempt man as we seen in the story of Job, but God is always able to restore us for faithfulness during our trials.
Our life is created by our own actions. When we obey God's will/Word in a situation, He blesses us in His own way. When we walk contrary to Christ throwing The Word to the ground or turn to the left or right to go around it in our choices, we will reap the consequence of those actions and eat the fruit that it produces. We can not have saved ourselves because we had unclean spirits that want nothing to do with the Word, why do you think that the ungodly HATE when you bring up the name JESUS? He is the Word whom became flesh and is torment for those who have unclean spirits indwelling them. See, these two never even seen Jesus before, but the unclean spirits in them knew who he was:
Matt 8:28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? KJV

The error in the church is that they do not understand that Saved to live again, and Chosen/Elected to rule and reign with Christ inheriting the kingdom of God are two different things. You can not be saved outside of receiving Christ as your Savior and Lord, but Saved just means you will live again, but in what condition of living will you have earned from your rewards?
1 Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV
Clearly we can see from this, that those of continued sinful lifestyles will not see the kingdom of heaven, nor inherit
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
KJV
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
KJV
To be saved does not mean made holy, nor to excuse us from all disasters in our life for those come from our consequences of our actions to keep us walking straight instead of crooked. We were scheduled for total destruction at the end of this age in the GWThrone judgment, but Christ died to purchase us back from our sin debt, and gave us time/Grace to be redeemed as we are allowing the Spirit to renew our thinking and doing in line with Christ.. the living Word that indwells our heart.

 

[4afaithfulone]

FREE WILL, I hear a lot about that?????


May I add a little to it?

At the moment of conception our Father is the Holy Spirit and the ovum is the Word of God.

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible (Father), by the word of God (ovum), which liveth and abideth for ever. 1Pe 1:23

So then, just like we know who are earthly parents are, when born again we will know who our heavenly parents are, ...our Father is the Holy Spirit and our Mother is a particular verse from the Word, ...just like Peter gave what verse (s) were used when he was born again.

For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 1 Pet 1:24, Is 40:6-8

And just like we know what day we were born physically, we will also know what day we were born again.

I like this last comment, our spiritual rebirth is far greater than our carnal one. Our old man is dead, I don't believe Jesus' carnal birth is to be celebrated either, His death is what he told us to remember for that is what he came to do, lower himself to our level to pay our debt in a flesh body which is the only legal payment.
As for the Holy Spirit being the Father, that is not so, she is a dove(Peace) and the mothering side of God and the bride and wife. Jesus the Word is the SEED of God that is implanted into our circumcised hearts where it can grow us into the image of Christ(attributes) not looks.
If one rejects the Word of God, they have rejected God for the Father and His Word and Holy Spirit are one God. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is our sign of adoption and the Spirit is as our mother who teaches us of the Fathers Word.
Luke 8:11
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
KJV
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
KJV
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
KJV
Go uses His Word to create everything, And God said... And God said... The Word is On the Right hand of God LITERALLY His right hand!

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
KJV
Notice The Word was being baptized, the Holy Spirit as a dove was descending on him and the Father in heaven spoke.
Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
KJV
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. KJV
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
KJV
Our mother is heavenly Jerusalem, the bride and wife of the Lamb and the Spirit and the Bride are one in the same.
God is a full family unit, yet considered a He for the Father is the Head of His household.

 

[Karl]

I like this last comment, our spiritual rebirth is far greater than our carnal one. Our old man is dead, I don't believe Jesus' carnal birth is to be celebrated either, His death is what he told us to remember for that is what he came to do, lower himself to our level to pay our debt in a flesh body which is the only legal payment.
As for the Holy Spirit being the Father, that is not so, she is a dove(Peace) and the mothering side of God and the bride and wife. Jesus the Word is the SEED of God that is implanted into our circumcised hearts where it can grow us into the image of Christ(attributes) not looks.
If one rejects the Word of God, they have rejected God for the Father and His Word and Holy Spirit are one God. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is our sign of adoption and the Spirit is as our mother who teaches us of the Fathers Word.
Luke 8:11
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
KJV
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
KJV
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
KJV
Go uses His Word to create everything, And God said... And God said... The Word is On the Right hand of God LITERALLY His right hand!

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
KJV
Notice The Word was being baptized, the Holy Spirit as a dove was descending on him and the Father in heaven spoke.
Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
KJV
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. KJV
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
KJV
Our mother is heavenly Jerusalem, the bride and wife of the Lamb and the Spirit and the Bride are one in the same.
God is a full family unit, yet considered a He for the Father is the Head of His household.

As for the Holy Spirit being the Father, that is not so, she is a dove(Peace) and the mothering side of God and the bride and wife.


Could you please give us Scriptural verification (book, chapter and verse) for what you have said?

Blessings

 

[Gregg]

FREE WILL, I hear a lot about that?????

Hummmm, I don't believe I had free will before I was born again, ...I realized drugs would kill me so I stopped, but I found my high through alcohol, after years of seducing married women I made a pledge to stop committing adultery, but I just turned to fornication, I personally believe the last person that had a free will was Adam, all of his descends have been born in his image and resemblance with our wills in bondage to sin, we can't stop sinning even when we WILL not to, ...I don't see how that can be called a free will.

I do believe we have free will to choose between life and death (Deu 30:15,19), a sentient living free will to either be obedient to God's will or to not believe His testimony of Christ (1Jn 3:23, 1Jn 5:11-12).

Good post Gregg,

May I add a little to it?

At the moment of conception our Father is the Holy Spirit and the ovum is the Word of God.

The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are each involved in our salvation as explained in Ephesians 1:

1. The Father has chosen that the one believing would be saved in and through His Son Jesus Christ (Eph 1:4,9,11).
2. The Son shed His blood for our redemption and eternal salvation (Eph 1:7).
3 The Holy Spirit seals the believer by indwelling him (Eph 1:13).​

 

[Karl]

I do believe we have free will to choose between life and death (Deu 30:15,19), a sentient living free will to either be obedient to God's will or to not believe His testimony of Christ (1Jn 3:23, 1Jn 5:11-12).



The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are each involved in our salvation as explained in Ephesians 1:

1. The Father has chosen that the one believing would be saved in and through His Son Jesus Christ (Eph 1:4,9,11).
2. The Son shed His blood for our redemption and eternal salvation (Eph 1:7).
3 The Holy Spirit seals the believer by indwelling him (Eph 1:13).​

Yep! That is when the strong man is bound in our lives by the Holy Spirit so that we can make an unbiased decision from what the Father has told us about His Son Jesus Christ and His Gospel.

Yep, I concur with that too, I just shed a little light from 1 Peter about how we are conceived.

Blessings

 

[4afaithfulone]

As for the Holy Spirit being the Father, that is not so, she is a dove(Peace) and the mothering side of God and the bride and wife.


Could you please give us Scriptural verification (book, chapter and verse) for what you have said?

Blessings

I thought I had done that already when I showed you that the Spirit and Bride say come! And I showed the dove coming down on Jesus who is the Holy Spirit, and the Father speaking from above all three of them together. Do you believe that the Holy Spirit teaches us the wisdom of God? I will show you SHE does.
Prov 8:1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.
7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.
10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.
KJV

 

[Karl]

I thought I had done that already when I showed you that the Spirit and Bride say come! And I showed the dove coming down on Jesus who is the Holy Spirit, and the Father speaking from above all three of them together. Do you believe that the Holy Spirit teaches us the wisdom of God? I will show you SHE does.
Prov 8:1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.
7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.
10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.
KJV

I will try and say this as gently as possible,

The Spirit and the Bride are two different beings, people, persons, the Holy Spirit and the Church which is called the Bride of Christ.

There are male and female doves, Scripture does not say what sex the dove was, also the dove is symbol of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not a dove, the dove represents peace.

The Word say wisdom is a she, not the Holy Spirit and beside that it is allegorical because we know Wisdom is the Lord Jesus Christ, ...I Am the Truth and Jesus is a Man and not a woman.

Blessings

 

[Gregg]

Could you cite the verse that says that God "conceives faith in the heart of a man", please? The action of believing God's promise of eternal life doesn't require conception.

​

I don't find any mention of faith being conceived in the heart of man in these verses.

I want to reiterate that I acknowledge man's free will.

'Conceive/conception' is a word of my choosing to describe God's work in our hearts, His preparation of our heart that we may believe in Him. Our believing into Christ is an exercise of our free will, but the faith required to believe comes from God:

"For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;" (Eph 2:8 LITV). The word 'gift' is neuter gender; where 'grace' is feminine, 'saved' is masculine, and 'faith' is feminine - indicating that the "gift" applies to all three - His grace, our being saved, and our faith. His grace, our being saved, and our faith are all three a gift of God.
​

The action of a man believing comes about after God has begun to work in the heart of a potential believer; "But the one doing the truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they exist, having been worked in God" (John 3:21 LITV), and "faith is of hearing, and hearing through the Word of God" (Rom 10:17 LITV). Hearing the Word of God comes because God gives spiritual ears to hear (Eph 1:18, Mat 13:15, Lk 24:25, Act 26:18). These things are initiated by God. He is the beginning of them, the beginning of our faith, the One who conceives it and brings it to birth.

He opens our heart to have spiritual understanding so that we may exercise obedience to His will, so that we might place our faith and trust in Him for eternal life. This is what I am referring to when I speak of God conceiving faith in the heart of a man, that it is God who is at work in the heart of man; both to bring about his faith from nothing [within someone who was once without faith and spiritually dead] and to perfect his faith so that it placed in God's completed work in and through Jesus Christ.

- - -

FreeGrace,
By the way, I appreciate your challenge to my use of words and towards my statements. Many here resist addressing semantics or mincing words, but it is often the finer details that define [or unveil] true doctrine. I also appreciate your fervor for the Scriptures.

Gregg

 

[Butch5]

Here is what Justin said of Christians in his first apology.

Chapter 7. — The world preserved for the sake of Christians. Man’s responsibility.
Wherefore God delays causing the confusion and destruction of the whole world, by which the wicked angels and demons and men shall cease to exist, because of the seed of the Christians, who know that they are the cause of preservation in nature. Since, if it were not so, it would not have been possible for you to do these things, and to be impelled by evil spirits; but the fire of judgment would descend and utterly dissolve all things, even as formerly the flood left no one but him only with his family who is by us called Noah, and by you Deucalion, from whom again such vast numbers have sprung, some of them evil and others good. For so we say that there will be the conflagration, but not as the Stoics, according to their doctrine of all things being changed into one another, which seems most degrading. But neither do we affirm that it is by fate that men do what they do, or suffer what they suffer, but that each man by free choice acts rightly or sins; and that it is by the influence of the wicked demons that earnest men, such as Socrates and the like, suffer persecution and are in bonds, while Sardanapalus, Epicurus, and the like, seem to be blessed in abundance and glory. The Stoics, not observing this, maintained that all things take place according to the necessity of fate. But since God in the beginning made the race of angels and men with free-will, they will justly suffer in eternal fire the punishment of whatever sins they have committed. And this is the nature of all that is made, to be capable of vice and virtue. For neither would any of them be praiseworthy unless there were power to turn to both [virtue and vice]. And this also is shown by those men everywhere who have made laws and philosophized according to right reason, by their prescribing to do some things and refrain from others. Even the Stoic philosophers, in their doctrine of morals, steadily honour the same things, so that it is evident that they are not very felicitous in what they say about principles and incorporeal things. For if they say that human actions come to pass by fate, they will maintain either that God is nothing else than the things which are ever turning, and altering, and dissolving into the same things, and will appear to have had a comprehension only of things that are destructible, and to have looked on God Himself as emerging both in part and in whole in every wickedness; or that neither vice nor virtue is anything; which is contrary to every sound idea, reason, and sense.

This is what Christians believe in the beginning. This writing of Justin's was written only about 50 or 60 years after John died. It's clear that they believed in free will. In this passage Justin mentions the Stoics. John Calvin, who we get determinism from was also a Stoic. When we look at history i think it's pretty clear where this idea came from.

Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

 

[Gregg]

In other words there is a scenario where neither God nor man is to blame for sin which only the pure of heart will see and believe.

I disagree.
"So then each one of us will give account concerning himself to God" (Rom 14:12 LITV).

Actually, man IS to blame for his sin. Rom 1:20 says that no one has any excuse. If man isn't accountable, why did Jesus Christ die for man's sins? If no one is to blame, then there would be no need for Christ's payment of sin. Someone surely is responsible for sin. And since Christ died for the sins of the whole world (1 Jn 2:2), it is clear that man is responsible and accountable for his sins.

I agree.
"If I had not come and had not spoken to them, they had no sin. But now they do not have excuse as to their sin" (John 15:22 LITV).

 

[childeye]

The will of God is His Word, that is His last will and testament that we should live by. We have free will to choose to do God's will or to reject The Christ of God

Unless we come to terms we will be arguing semantics. We therefore should not conflate the term "will", with "free" will. So let's look at the terms. The term "will" generally carries two different meanings. 1) the ability to choose. 2) The desire within a man. Merriam Webster:
Definition of WILL
transitive verb
: desire, wish <call it what you will>
verbal auxiliary
1
—used to express desire, choice, willingness, consent, or in negative constructions refusal <no one would take the job> <if we will all do our best> <will you please stop that racket>.

Now I would like to say a few things about the term "free will' and what it means. It is not the ability to choose which is what the term "will" means as shown above. It is the ability to choose freely without any compulsion or restraint and without any predetermined events that may alter our choices, nor are any choices controlled by anyone including God Himself. From Merriam Webster:
Free will
noun
: the ability to choose how to act
: the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God.

So what are some of the implications of believing in the free will defined above?

1. There is no such thing as the will of the flesh, opposing God in our members, nor any lust therein compelling us to sin. There is no slavery to sin. It is therefore our free choice to sin. We therefore would not need the Truth to set us free from sin because we already choose to sin freely and can freely choose not to. Sin is hurting others. A free will therefore can freely desire to willfully hurt others. And the Eternal Spirit, that is Love and empathy, is out of sight and mind as it becomes the product of a persons own free will, to turn it off and on at will.
2. There is no such thing as the Holy Spirit. There is no Truth necessary to free a person from sin. The Holy Spirit is He Who testifies to God and the son. Scripture says no one can even call Jesus Lord without the Holy Spirit, 1 Corinthians 12:3. There is no fruit of the Holy Spirit. For all good virtues are the product of a person's free will, and not from the Character of God living inside the person.
3. It separates God from the man, making God an outsider trying to get the man to do His will. That is in direct opposition to scripture which says that to become like God, we must be born again in the Spirit which is the Light of man. John 1:4. John 1:14.
4. Free will is a misleading concept that blinds a person to the war between the lust of the flesh and the Word of God within a man. By conflating the term choice/available option, with the term Choice/ the decision, it presumes in the mind that this conflict within us is autonomy under the guise of free will. It is therefore an equivocation.
5. Under the guise of a free decision, it justifies blame and shame for those who sin, and pride and congratulations for those who don't ,inspiring envy and hypocrisy while stealing all glory from God, Who's Spirit is what makes a man righteous and causes a man to walk in righteous works.
6. There are no spiritual kingdoms of Light and darkness that hold power over any persons choices or actions. Ephesians 6:12.

When we were created, we had complete trust and faith in our Maker. We could not conceive of disobeying Him since we would never question His integrity nor his intentions towards us. But then, the devil proposed a subtle lie. He proposed that we had a choice to disobey God, and that we would not die as God had said we would. He proposed that god was a liar who held control over us by keeping us from the very thing that would make us god's equal. God never gave us the option to disobey Him and describe it as a form of freedom. For to disobey God is the path to death. Free will is a foundational lie complete with a corrupt image of god at it's core. We are servants to whomever we obey, and the only true free will, is the one that has an undying faith in God and therefore desires only to serve Him. John 8:32. 1 John 3: 10. Romans 6:16.

 

[childeye]

I disagree.
"So then each one of us will give account concerning himself to God" (Rom 14:12 LITV).

Respectfully it is not fair for me to comment on this until you read post #17. With that in mind I will tell you that I totally agree that all men will give an account for what they did and why they did it. However this does not affect my belief in a no fault scenario nor can it. Here is only one reason why. Matthew 7:1. And since being reborn quickens a man, I believe it happens by God's grace through faith and not by a free will. John 1:12-13. There is no good thing in man apart from God that would cause him to desire to do good to others, for God is Love. 1 John 4:8.

 

[Gregg]

Respectfully it is not fair for me to comment on this until you read post #17. With that in mind I will tell you that I totally agree that all men will give an account for what they did and why they did it. However this does not affect my belief in a no fault scenario nor can it. Here is only one reason why. Matthew 7:1. And since being reborn quickens a man, I believe it happens by God's grace through faith and not by a free will. John 1:12-13. There is no good thing in man apart from God that would cause him to desire to do good to others, for God is Love. 1 John 4:8.

Regarding your post #17, our will is not controlled by God but influenced by God.

Regarding your post #18 above, we are save by grace through faith (Eph 2:8). Interesting that you quote Jn 1:12-13 as it begins by stating "as many as received Him . . .", a conscious decision to believe in the LORD, an act of obedience to the will of God. God makes the decision and obedience possible while allowing man the choice to believe or not, to be obedient or rebellious, to receive Him or reject Him.

- - -

In my thinking, a 'free will' can be exercised in the presence of necessity [as by default it is God's command to believe in Him]; and that God actively influences our discretion as we consider, contemplate, weigh the alternative, and decide upon believing in Him for salvation. God does not make the decision to believe for us, but He helps us in every way according to His character and nature.

I 'will' not be a Calvinist!

 

[FreeGrace]

I want to reiterate that I acknowledge man's free will.

'Conceive/conception' is a word of my choosing to describe God's work in our hearts, His preparation of our heart that we may believe in Him. Our believing into Christ is an exercise of our free will, but the faith required to believe comes from God:

"For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;" (Eph 2:8 LITV). The word 'gift' is neuter gender; where 'grace' is feminine, 'saved' is masculine, and 'faith' is feminine - indicating that the "gift" applies to all three - His grace, our being saved, and our faith. His grace, our being saved, and our faith are all three a gift of God.​

​

Faith and believer are 2 sides of a coin; one being a verb (action) and the other being a noun (substance). When you say "the faith required to believe", do you mean that the action of believing requires an object (substance) to believe in or on? That would make sense.

FreeGrace,
By the way, I appreciate your challenge to my use of words and towards my statements. Many here resist addressing semantics or mincing words, but it is often the finer details that define [or unveil] true doctrine. I also appreciate your fervor for the Scriptures.

Gregg

Thank you. My goal is to be true to what the Scripture says. Some arguments are about semantics, while others are about the message itself.

My theology is derived by what I believe Scriptures plainly say, as well as what they do not plainly say. Which is why I often ask for verses that say what others claim.
[edited to a more respectful tone. See ToS 2.4. WIP]

The best example is all for whom Christ died. There are a number that plainly say that He died for all, and none that say that He died "only/just" for some/elect/etc.