Conditional Election... what is it, and is it biblical...?

[Danus]

The other side of this simple truth to the scriptures is told us as well.. That people will be damned because they RECEIVED NOT the love of the truth that they might be saved..

Imagine that.. Damned for not receiving the truth..

And so many are led to believe that God regenerated them so that they did believe..

No matter how you slice it.. That's special.

Yes. I agree. I think you are right about that. I can totally relate.

 

[Eventide]

I see you don't like RC. I will not mention him in your thread. I think he is brilliant and has a great way of explaining things that I agree with and I like to share what he has to offer. I quote him quite a bit, but I quote others also.

I don't like false teaching, period.. and imo it doesn't get much more serious than this.. taking a wonderful doctrine such as election and centering it on condemned men rather than on Christ alone..

Chosen By God doesn't even acknowledge the one who is the elect of God, but rather speaks of how God chose YOU in light of some of the most foundational aspects of the Christian faith, repentance, denying self, taking up my cross, following Christ..

You asked how do I relate "sanctification of the SPIRIT and BELIEF of the TRUTH" as unconditional? well, if you are saying that those things, "belief" or "sanctification" are from you to God then I guess those are conditions you are saying the believer must meet?

For ONE simple reason Danus.. because that's what the scriptures teach in simplicity and truth..

WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED... how can you possibly read that as What must GOD do to be saved ?

Obviously GOD IS doing the saving, although it's because He pricked your heart with the TRUTH about our sin and who HE IS and how He has perfectly finished the entire situation... if you simply BELIEVE IT..

And I'll agree with this.. most people DO NOT believe the simple truth from what I've seen...

Here is what I find from some, not so much from you; but some believe, and have clearly expressed on this forum time and time again, that they are sinless by their own choice, and that they have chosen to be saved because they are good to be saved. God approves of them, and their righteous behavior and thoughts and so they are saved. They will go on to indicate that they can at any time not be saved when they do "bad things" and then in order to be saved again they simply straighten their act up and meet all the conditions for salvation again. No dirty thoughts, or actions and ask for God's forgivness again and get their salvation card back.

IF that true light was in these people, then He would be convicting them of sin.. even after you're saved.. in fact it's after you're saved that you actually CAN SEE how wretched we are.. so it's just another gross error imo.

There are varying degrees of this type of notion, and everyone of them can find one liner verses to back up what they say. In the end people hold to what they know, and nothing more than that generally.

It's as if the word of God doesn't matter one iota..

I have taken the time to spend with you on this because I find you're views unique. Many who I've sen help back you up have said we are born sinless, but you have said we are born sin. That's the kicker right there.

You have indicated that man is sinful, as the bible says, where as many others holding similar view disagree. That is probably the key to understanding salvation. Knowing you are a sinner, but to what degree one knows thins varies.

That's one of the main reasons people hate Calvin. he starts off saying man kind is totally depraved. I like to say we are utterly sinful. People don;t like that. They want to be good. the bible tells us only God is good. people don;t like that. They want to be good also, and by Golly they will be. Many set out to show God just how good they are.

I think God chooses those who understand first just how sinful they are. This is purely my opinion, but I think that's one of his highest "conditions" for choosing anyone. However, I think he chooses those who don't know they are sinful as well, but do not think they are sinless either. I think he also works with those who think they are sinless to try and use their sin to call to them and show them just how sinful they are. Some never turn from their sin in thinking they are without sin, and others don't even care embracing their sin, but I think those two sinners are the same.

Anyway, that's my honest opinion.

Correct me if I'm wrong.. although are you still saying that regardless of what 2 Thess 2 says concerning why God has chosen us from the beginning, you'll continue to think and believe that God chose YOU unconditionally ?

 

[reba]

Eventide, i am wondering when/where/how was it you found yourself in good enough condition for salvation?

 

[Eventide]

Eventide, i am wondering when/where/how was it you found yourself in good enough condition for salvation?

Reba, imo this isn't even worth responding to.. because if that's all you can ask of me then you're certainly not listening to me.

 

[rrowell]

I have taken the time to spend with you on this because I find you're views unique. Many who I've sen help back you up have said we are born sinless, but you have said we are born sin. That's the kicker right there.

I take this directed at me, and that is fine, I don't even know what denomination (if its a denomination) that Eventide holds to, in fact I find many other denomination (or faiths if that is a better word) hold to many things that I believe are true, I am CoC, non denominational, and find all truth in the Bible and the Bible only, no man made doctrine, if what he says is biblical I am with him, if I find no truth in it I will say so...

If it were "born with sin" we were talking about, and he believes that to be taught in the bible, we would be in opposite corners, however when I think what he says is of a truth I will support him or anyone else on this forum, from what I read of his posts on this subject he like I are interested in the truth and there is no biblical proof in predestination.

In reference to your point I quoted of you it appears your trying to pit him and I against each other to skirt the points we have both made...

Calvinistic views and the injection of it in our modern bibles is an abomination to the Lord, there is no truth in it, and I will stand against it...

 

[Tri Unity]

I don't like false teaching, period..

Very good comments, Eventide. Reformed theology is a difficult subject to discuss. I love it that God has given us so many theological hurdles to jump. This is a fascinating game Christ delivered when He promised the sword and division. False teachings are everywhere, but people do not always intend to teach what is false. The worst and grossest of falseness comes from those who do intend to spread their own conceit. Danus is clearly not in that camp. Ironically, I think Calvin was in that camp. Again, God has given us these hurdles. Deceivers were "elected"... Judas was.

Every one of us struggles with some error and some deceit. I had thought I was right on several things I now know are wrong. It is a condition we struggle with, not any one deceit. We need to be aware of this condition and aware of our own vulnerability to being wrong. This is not taught to us, unfortunately. We are still in the dark about many things.

Peace
Tri

 

[rrowell]

Every one of us struggles with some error and some deceit. I had thought I was right on several things I now know are wrong.

AMEN - I have too been wrong and will be wrong again, thank God for the Holy Spirit

 

[reba]

Reba, imo this isn't even worth responding to.. because if that's all you can ask of me then you're certainly not listening to me.

Maybe your not clear.

I am a sinner saved by Grace, i believe so are you... We had zero conditions to meet when we were saved. He pulled us out of the clay etc....He put our feet on solid Rock.

 

[Tri Unity]

We had zero conditions to meet when we were saved.

Isn't repentance a condition?

Acts 2:38 "Peter said to them, Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Acts 3:19 "Therefore repent and turn back so that your sins may be wiped out."

Acts 8:22 "Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that he may perhaps forgive you for the intent of your heart."

(Along with many other scriptures)

 

[reba]

Tri did you one day just up and decide all on your own you needed to repent?....
Jesus says something about being drawn....

As for quoting Scripture all sides of an issue can post passages is such a way as to have them comply with which ever theory is being pushed.

I do not have a good comand of language. You will be able
to out word me so i wont battle... I will leave that to brighter minds....

 

[Tri Unity]

Tri did you one day just up and decide all on your own you needed to repent?....
Jesus says something about being drawn....

As for quoting Scripture all sides of an issue can post passages is such a way as to have them comply with which ever theory is being pushed.

I do not have a good comand of language. You will be able
to out word me so i wont battle... I will leave that to brighter minds....

Bless you.

The goal is to understand; not win a contest. Is repentance used in the scriptures in the sense that it is conditional? I think that it is clear that it is. A person cannot be wrong to use the words that the bible advocates using. The bible advocates using the word "conditional" in the sense that salvation follows after repentance. Repentance is the "condition" of salvation.

 

[farouk]

Tri did you one day just up and decide all on your own you needed to repent?....
Jesus says something about being drawn....

As for quoting Scripture all sides of an issue can post passages is such a way as to have them comply with which ever theory is being pushed.

I do not have a good comand of language. You will be able
to out word me so i wont battle... I will leave that to brighter minds....

reba:

Well, exactly; John 6 is very searching and humbling in this regard.

Blessings.

 

[Danus]

I don't like false teaching, period.. and imo it doesn't get much more serious than this.. taking a wonderful doctrine such as election and centering it on condemned men rather than on Christ alone..

Chosen By God doesn't even acknowledge the one who is the elect of God, but rather speaks of how God chose YOU in light of some of the most foundational aspects of the Christian faith, repentance, denying self, taking up my cross, following Christ..

In defense of RC's series called Chosen by God, first of all it's a book. the few videos I've shared deal with very specific subject matter designed to help people understand the doctrine of election, but he touches on many other aspects. It would take years to go through everything he's written.

RC talks about sin and the Christian life and what it means to deny ones self in light of grace. Don't sell the man short. He's brilliant, but he's also just a man. That does not mean he does not have something to good to teach. Get to know him and I think you'll see a better picture of what he has to say. The choice is yours....or is it?

Correct me if I'm wrong.. although are you still saying that regardless of what 2 Thess 2 says concerning why God has chosen us from the beginning, you'll continue to think and believe that God chose YOU unconditionally ?

I'm thinking you're not seeing what is meant by unconditional. When we say unconditional, what we mean is that God does not choose to save anyone based on how worthy they are for salvation. Do you have to come to Christ to be saved? Sure! But, we also say that man in his fallen nature does not come to Christ on his own, rather Christ comes to us where we are and draws us to him.
This is not a popular view, and many people who say they believe it, struggle with it. Why? well, I think there are a variety of reasons. One might be that someone was raised in the church and felt pressured to walk down fount and come to Jesus. Maybe they did not want to upset their parents, or be talked about in the small town they lived in and they have just being going to church out of tradition. Just a guess, but one I've heard before.

I don't have a problem with the verses you've quoted. There is nothing in the bible I have a problem with. It all fits into my theology. I'm sure others can say the same. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 fits in to what I see as unconditional election. "Loved by the Lord....God Chose....though the sanctifying work OF THE SPIRIT. this fits in with Col 3:12, Eph 1:4, 1Th 3:13; 4:3 this is unconditional on the part of the believer. It is from God to the believer, through the holy spirit at God's choosing on whom he chooses. What is not liked here is the idea that some are not chosen. Well, that's another matter for another topic. Theology is systematic. One aspect relying on the other, like a perfectly fit puzzle.

I think a good question might be, what are some chosen and some not? How and why does God choose who he chooses? That's a deep discussion, but I don't know that it's for this thread.

 

[Danus]

Isn't repentance a condition?

Acts 2:38 "Peter said to them, Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Acts 3:19 "Therefore repent and turn back so that your sins may be wiped out."

Acts 8:22 "Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that he may perhaps forgive you for the intent of your heart."

(Along with many other scriptures)

Another good question. I'd say that depends on how one views repentance. I would say that we are not able to repent until we are convicted. This is to say that no one apologizes for something they don't feel they did.

Because of the nature of sin; the depth of man's sin, he is unable to feel that he is a sinner, unless he is convicted of his sin, this is to say convinced that he is a sinner first, and this is an aspect of salvation in and of itself through spirit of God onto the one to be saved that causes them to repent.

The verses you have seems to suggest on the surface that we are ordered to repent in our fallen state.

Acts 8:22 is Peter talking to Simion who felt like he could buy some of that Holly spirit, so that told him to get lost basically, advising him to reach a state of repentance and maybe he'll be forgiven. They could have ministered to him, but they where kind of jerks if you think about it. Notice peter says in 20 before he mentioned repentance he says to Simion; "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the GIFT of God. Gift, what conditions you you give someone a Gift?

We can dig into the other scriptures about repentance as well, but notice what's present before repentance...the spirit of God, often also in the word of God. It takes faith first then we are able to repent, and we will.

 

[reba]

Bless you.

The goal is to understand; not win a contest. Is repentance used in the scriptures in the sense that it is conditional? I think that it is clear that it is. A person cannot be wrong to use the words that the bible advocates using. The bible advocates using the word "conditional" in the sense that salvation follows after repentance. Repentance is the "condition" of salvation.

I have no idea what you are saying....

 

[Tri Unity]

I have no idea what you are saying....

Your right, I phased that wrong... I meant Is salvation used in the scriptures in the sense that it is conditional? Oh, well... sorry.

 

[reba]

What condition? Do we become good enough for salvation some where anlong the line? Where we not dead in sin? The condition of a dead man is stinky..

 

[Tri Unity]

What condition? Do we become good enough for salvation some where anlong the line? Where we not dead in sin? The condition of a dead man is stinky..

I agree with you. I am just pointing out that the scriptures announce that salvation requires repentance; therefore it cannot be called "unconditional". I agree that I am stinky; but that doesn't alter what the scriptures say.

 

[reba]

I agree with you. I am just pointing out that the scriptures announce that salvation requires repentance; therefore it cannot be called "unconditional". I agree that I am stinky; but that doesn't alter what the scriptures say.

That is how you understand the Scriptures. The requirement for salvation was/is the Blood of the Lamb of God....and that is how i understand the Scriptures

 

[Tri Unity]

That is how you understand the Scriptures. The requirement for salvation was/is the Blood of the Lamb of God....and that is how i understand the Scriptures

Is there a different way to understand these scriptures?

Acts 2:38 "Peter said to them, Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Repenting for the forgiveness of your sins - forgiveness is synonymous with the blood of the lamb - to receive the blood you must repent.

Ok, you understand that differently... I thought it was pretty clear.