Conditional Election... what is it, and is it biblical...?

[n2thelight]

The Apostle Paul writes in 2 Thess 2;

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

There it is, and it really doesn't get much simpler than this.. end of story...

NOW if simple questions like "What must I do to be saved ?" can't be answered correctly by many, what in the world would make anything think that this truth matters.

Regardless of the simple truth of scripture written right here.. many will completely ignore it and continue to believe that the 'so called scholars' of the day teach them instead.. that they're chosen by God without a single condition.

Sad isn't it ?

You missing the point of the verse,it's much deeper than that........

The previous verses before the one you posted,is Paul telling them not to be deceived

II Thessalonians 2:13 "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"

Paul does not think the Thessalonians will fall for this deceiving lie of the "any moment doctrine", after they have the truth. They were chosen from before the foundations of this earth age [the elect], and because they are, they will see, and believe the truth of God's holy Word. Romans 8 identifies these elect.

All are not of the elect....

God has certain children that were chosen before the foundation of this earth age, and they were predestinated and preordained, and even judged in that first earth age.

Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

What does it mean to be "chosen"?


It means that there are certain people that God chosen in the first earth age, to do a task for Him in this flesh earth age. This is not reincarnation, for it is appointed for each of us to go through this earth age, the flesh earth age, once and only once. We read; "...It is appointed unto men once to die [in the flesh], but after this the judgment." Hebrews 9:27 This appointing and choosing took place before the foundation of this earth age; the second earth age [cosmos] that we now live in.

"Without blame" refers to the fact that God intercedes in certain peoples lives. Certain people have free will, while certain others are of God's election, however, God doesn't play favorites. Christ died for the sins of all who will repent; the chosen, and the free-will. All must repent for sins they commit, and love the Lord Jesus Christ, to have the hope of His glory.

Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"

"Predestined" means "from a prior time", or "required to do a certain thing" in the Greek text. You have a choice of loving God, or loving Satan. God will not interfere with your free will choice to chose Him or Satan. However, that person that proved himself during the overthrow of Satan, were "justified", or earned the right to be called "saints", from that first earth age.

Each soul comes from God, and enters an embryo at conception. This is why Jeremiah was a chosen one. "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou comest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet of nations." Jeremiah 1:5

"Sanctified" thee, is to "set aside, or apart for a purpose". Sins still have to be repented, and the price to pay for them still had to be made. To the predestined, and fore chosen, God can make life so miserable to those out of His will that they will repent. God has a perfect will, and God is always fair.
"And we know that all things work together for good, to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose." Romans 8:28 This verse is directed to a certain people, with a condition attached. This applies to "them who are called according to His purpose." "His purpose" is called God's plan, and God's overall plan is the offering of Salvation to all. That plan includes the teaching of God's Word; to plant seeds to convict; to live our life for Him; and to go and speak where God leads you. God will use you as it pleases Him.

"For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." Romans 8:29 God knew you, and what you were in that first earth age; and then [in that first earth age] God prearranged our destiny for this age. That destiny is to make us conform, or be like His Son, Jesus Christ. Though Jesus is the first fruits to overcome death, there are many that have that victory over death, through Christ's death and resurrection.

"Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called: He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified." Romans 8:30 "Justified" means "judged" in the Greek text; God judged them there in that first earth age, and that is why God can and does intercede in the chosen's ones lives. The justified are the priests of the Zadok in the millennium age of Ezekiel 40, for the word Zadok comes from the Hebrew word meaning "the just".

http://www.theseason.org/ephesians/ephesians1.htm

 

[Eventide]

For now we see through a glass, darkly...

Very good comments, Eventide. Reformed theology is a difficult subject to discuss. I love it that God has given us so many theological hurdles to jump. This is a fascinating game Christ delivered when He promised the sword and division. False teachings are everywhere, but people do not always intend to teach what is false. The worst and grossest of falseness comes from those who do intend to spread their own conceit. Danus is clearly not in that camp. Ironically, I think Calvin was in that camp. Again, God has given us these hurdles. Deceivers were "elected"... Judas was.

Every one of us struggles with some error and some deceit. I had thought I was right on several things I now know are wrong. It is a condition we struggle with, not any one deceit. We need to be aware of this condition and aware of our own vulnerability to being wrong. This is not taught to us, unfortunately. We are still in the dark about many things.

Peace
Tri

Tri,

And I must say the same to you.. very nice commentary here. It reminded me of one of the most important things that I ever heard after becoming a Christian.. and it was basically that the Christian life is a CONTINUOUS, NON ENDING, life of CORRECTION..

It's just another way of being conformed to the glorious image of our Lord Jesus Christ.. it's as if God is allowing us to see the wretched state of who we are in glaring contrast to who He is..

So in that light, we ALL have a long way to go..

 

[Eventide]

In defense of RC's series called Chosen by God, first of all it's a book. the few videos I've shared deal with very specific subject matter designed to help people understand the doctrine of election, but he touches on many other aspects. It would take years to go through everything he's written.

RC talks about sin and the Christian life and what it means to deny ones self in light of grace. Don't sell the man short. He's brilliant, but he's also just a man. That does not mean he does not have something to good to teach. Get to know him and I think you'll see a better picture of what he has to say. The choice is yours....or is it?

All to the end that God had to choose ME, because I could not TRUST in Him... regardless of the convicting evidence of the Holy Spirit, that TRUE LIGHT which lighteth every man that comes into the world..?

Isn't that the bottom line here ?

As I've mentioned before, I can't think of a belief which is more shallow than this.. the rich young ruler could ONLY have walked away because God didn't choose HIM.

Although more importantly.. it strips the infinitely glorious doctrine of election from the Lord Jesus Christ and centers it upon condemned men.

I'm thinking you're not seeing what is meant by unconditional. When we say unconditional, what we mean is that God does not choose to save anyone based on how worthy they are for salvation.

And I'm thinking that you're changing the definition in light of how OBVIOUS it is that there are ARE conditions for salvation... things like repentance toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ..

What direction is that in your opinion..? Is it God repenting for me and having faith for me.. because I couldn't ? And for those whom He doesn't repent and believe for.. oh well, He will condemn them for their rejecting the love of the truth..

For the life in me I can't imagine that mind set within the Christian.

 

[Danus]

And I'm thinking that you're changing the definition in light of how OBVIOUS it is that there are ARE conditions for salvation... things like repentance toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ..

What direction is that in your opinion..? Is it God repenting for me and having faith for me.. because I couldn't ? And for those whom He doesn't repent and believe for.. oh well, He will condemn them for their rejecting the love of the truth..

For the life in me I can't imagine that mind set within the Christian.

This has already been addressed within the doctrine of election. Faith is a gift from God given unconditionally, and is what allows one to repent. repentance is evidence of faith. Nothing has been changed in the definition given so far. We've already written a small book in theses last two threads.

Why God chooses some and not others he says he has his reasons. I'm not questioning why God choose some and not others. He already says he does, and he says he has his reasons, that's good enough for me, but I also believe that those not chosen are not wondering if they are chosen or not. They don't care.

 

[Adullam]

Don't stop there. Go ahead and list the conditions one must meet to receive Gods grace, mercy, & Forgiveness. What must anyone do by their own power first to be accepted by God as worthy to be saved.

Election is not about salvation but being conformed to Christ as His bride. The standard of salvation is far lower than the standard of glorification and rulership with Christ.

 

[Eventide]

This has already been addressed within the doctrine of election. Faith is a gift from God given unconditionally, and is what allows one to repent. repentance is evidence of faith. Nothing has been changed in the definition given so far. We've already written a small book in theses last two threads.

Your telling me that I'm not seeing what is 'meant' by unconditional election and then you said that it's not about being worthy enough etc.. which of course is true in your pov.. because there ARE NO conditions.. repenting, believing, all of the above taken care of by GOD because He chose YOU..

I'll say it again, unconditional election is very simple to understand..

Why God chooses some and not others he says he has his reasons. I'm not questioning why God choose some and not others. He already says he does, and he says he has his reasons, that's good enough for me, but I also believe that those not chosen are not wondering if they are chosen or not. They don't care.

Of course He has HIS REASONS.. and they're told to us in plain english.. that God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

That IS why.. and obviously the vast difference between views here stems from not understanding that the Lord Jesus Christ (alone) is the elect of God and that we are chosen IN HIM.. when we're baptized into that one body by the same Spirit..

And again, we're told precisely WHY..

Because you first TRUSTED in Christ, after hearing the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation.. in whom, AFTER ye believed, ye were SEALED (by God) with that Holy Spirit..

 

[reba]

Is there a different way to understand these scriptures?

Acts 2:38 "Peter said to them, Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Repenting for the forgiveness of your sins - forgiveness is synonymous with the blood of the lamb - to receive the blood you must repent.

Ok, you understand that differently... I thought it was pretty clear.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Do we repent so we can be drawn or do we repent because we were drawn?

 

[Eventide]

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Do we repent so we can be drawn or do we repent because we were drawn?

Now this is an excellent question imo and the answer should (also imo) be perfectly clear..

We repent because we have been drawn and convicted by the truth..

Now I understand that you've probably been taught over and over again that we all saved ourselves without any help at all.. and I can't do anything about that.. although it's time to stop thinking that this is how most Christians think.

 

[reba]

Now this is an excellent question imo and the answer should (also imo) be perfectly clear..

We repent because we have been drawn and convicted by the truth..

Now I understand that you've probably been taught over and over again that we all saved ourselves without any help at all.. and I can't do anything about that.. although it's time to stop thinking that this is how most Christians think.

Please Eventide you totally lost me.... in your Now i understand......paragraph

 

[Eventide]

Please Eventide you totally lost me.... in your Now i understand......paragraph

It's not important Reba, and I'm sure you'll catch up..

 

[Gordon]

I have some questions for you too as I try to figure this out hope you don't mind. If God sees what choice we make and chooses us for that what are the conditions of this decision? Like does God run us through some kind of simulation where we all had an equal chance to believe? Like the girl who grows up in North Korea or the guy who never heard the gospel did these people at some point have a chance and fail? Is it just luck I grew up in North America with Christian parents or did God decide this because of seeing the choice I would have made. Basically is this really different than saying God made some people to die if some people seem to have almost no chance?

I think the 3 Earth age theory is interesting though it seems radical as no one really teaches it and there is barely any scripture.

 

[reba]

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Amplified Bible (AMP)
20 For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],

 

[reba]

Thanks? eventide

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

No where in the Bible does it say that the "elect" are so chosen for salvation, and it never, ever refers to the "elect" except in a collective. It is obvious from Romans 8-11 that Paul's discussion of the "elect" is in reference to Israel as God's chosen nation, and comparing them to the "nation" of those who are saved. The only "election" in that latter "nation" is to be conformed to the image of Christ and to be given the blessings God promised in the Old Testament to "His people." We are His people by virtue of His drawing us to Him, His calling us to hear the gospel and His opening of our hearts to receive Him.

Our only part in this cannot escape the input of God, and that part is making a true and faithful confession of being a sinner in need of a Savior, and only by His power can we make that confession. It is then the Holy Spirit indwells, because the confession is recognized by God as a heartfelt desire to be changed by the power of God, a change we believe can take place because we have been drawn, called and have had faith enabled in us to believe.

 

[Gordon]

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Amplified Bible (AMP)
20 For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],

Thats a pretty harsh teaching. I guess I can't tell if it means they have made the wrong choice or they can't make the right choice. So then the implication being either God favors a white woman in Ohio over a North Korean for a mysterious reason or the white women in Ohio happens to be more likely to repent for no special reason as everything is fair? Kind of confusing.

 

[Tri Unity]

Thats a pretty harsh teaching. I guess I can't tell if it means they have made the wrong choice or they can't make the right choice. So then the implication being either God favors a white woman in Ohio over a North Korean for a mysterious reason or the white women in Ohio happens to be more likely to repent for no special reason as everything is fair? Kind of confusing.

Your questions are excellent. They are the meat with the bone; the jaw-breaker. This question has been asked ever since the 2nd century, and it has perplexed Christians the whole time. On what grounds election? Not just for salvation; but for abortion, or famine, or sickness, or poverty? On what grounds does God give one person ‘everything’ and the next person ‘nothing’. Origen was the chief theologian to tackle this question; but no one liked his answer. He suggested the idea that we all pre-existed as angels, and we have come to earth as a consequence of the rebellion which took place in germ form before Adam and Eve.

This debate spilled over into another question… “When does the soul enter the body?” Jerome and Augustine debated this question ferociously; as they believed that the answer had implications for the first question.

Personally, whether Origen, Jerome or Augustine are right or wrong; I think God has positioned people in the substructure of societies based on their faith, which God is able to see. Faith is like a light, and even when it is not known by us, it is still known to God.

According to Romans 8:9; before we are elected or predestined, we are “known” to God. “For those whom he foreknew he also predestined.” What did God “know” that caused us to be elected and predestined? (see also Romans 11:2) I suggest it was our faith. “Now without faith it is impossible to please him”. (Heb 11:6) “But as many as received him (with faith), to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.” (John 1:12) “All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.” (Matt 19:11)

Our election, predestination, sonship and grace were given only to those who were “foreknown” to “receive Him”. Faith is the connector of all of these points. “For all men have not faith”. (2 Thess 3:2) We alone have “the mystery of the faith”. (1 Tim 3:9)

Our present circumstance, whether we are rich or poor, Roman or Korean, are incidental to the “mystery of the faith”. It is in our hearts and souls that the battle takes place; and our race and riches have absolutely no bearing on that, other than that God chooses our bodies as “props” that we live in, and by props I also mean our skin colour, our nation, our economic status, etc. God chooses these things in order to draw our faith. Those who have no faith become props for those who do. We are chosen for our unique place within time and space; we are grafted into our bodies through Ensoulment. This is how 12 Apostles just happened to be at the right place at the right time, and why Judas just so happened to magically appear right on queue. This is why you are born and talk on this forum, why priests and ministers guide the hearts of us; they are tested in their role as you are tested in yours; for God has given each his place in time and the role he/she performs. God gives us our challenges, whether it be riches or dyslexia. God alone knows that He has tailored the best life of props for our own unique spirit and faith.

So, there is a fine line between “all things” being predestined, as the Calvinists see it, and free-will, as others see it. Both are true simultaneously - but neither is complete on its own. One is the marrow, the other is the bone.

Tri

 

[Eventide]

I have some questions for you too as I try to figure this out hope you don't mind.

Certainly I do not mind, it's good discussion imo.

If God sees what choice we make and chooses us for that what are the conditions of this decision? Like does God run us through some kind of simulation where we all had an equal chance to believe? Like the girl who grows up in North Korea or the guy who never heard the gospel did these people at some point have a chance and fail? Is it just luck I grew up in North America with Christian parents or did God decide this because of seeing the choice I would have made. Basically is this really different than saying God made some people to die if some people seem to have almost no chance?

IMO one of the most important things to remember is that our Lord Jesus Christ is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world... and that the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment... and to be perfectly frank.. I couldn't even begin to understand all that THAT entails.. although I accept it by faith... just as I accept the truth that to whom much is given, much is required, and to whom little is given, little is required.. etc etc.. He HAS set the boundaries of our habiation so that we WOULD seek Him and find Him, as He is not far from any one of us.

And imo God is not choosing us.. He commands all men everywhere to repent and to have faith in His beloved and infinitely glorious Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.

I think the 3 Earth age theory is interesting though it seems radical as no one really teaches it and there is barely any scripture.

I don't know what that is, but I can google it to find out I suppose.

 

[Gordon]

Thats really interesting. So if you were a North Korean (not christian) reading this what conclusion would you come to? That God had seen no faith in you or an amazing faith in you to put you in North Korea. It just doesn't seem likely that a North Korean Christian would have a "fair" amount of faith. Or am I wrong here? Can you draw no conclusions? After all North Koreans aren't often Christians. Is the fact that I am living a comfortable life during peace in a Christian Super Power a sign that I couldn't have made it as a Christian being fed to lions? If I had a greater faith would God have put me in a third world country or is this some kind of reward? I guess that's a rhetorical. Really interesting stuff thanks.

 

[farouk]

Ephesians 1 is a great statement of election.

There are many Scriptures which could be quoted to illustrate both divine sovereignty and human responsibility.

 

[Eventide]

Thats really interesting. So if you were a North Korean (not christian) reading this what conclusion would you come to? That God had seen no faith in you or an amazing faith in you to put you in North Korea. It just doesn't seem likely that a North Korean Christian would have a "fair" amount of faith. Or am I wrong here? Can you draw no conclusions. After all North Koreans aren't often Christians. Is the fact that I am living a comfortable life during peace in a Christian Super Power a sign that I couldn't have made it as a Christian being fed to lions? If I had a greater faith would God have put me in a third world country or is this some kind of reward? I guess that's a rhetorical. Really interesting stuff thanks.

Perhaps you're focusing a little too much upon us rather than upon the limitless glory of the Lord Jesus Christ, who is absolutely able to save every last one of us to the uttermost.. and there's no question in my mind that He loves us beyond what we can possibly understand.. because imo, we can't even begin to understand the depths of Calvary, where He alone bore our sins in His own body.. on that forsaken tree.