Conditional Election... what is it, and is it biblical...?

[Butch5]

Ya know.. it wouldn't be so bad if the 'Reformed' camp just told everyone their beliefs.. but no... their teachers also have to hypnotize them into thinking that everyone who doesn's think like them are saving themselves... they're doing it all on their own... as if the Holy Spirit didn't even exist.. as if conviction didn't exist.. as if nothing but my own efforts were responsible for salvation..

Again, pretty sad when this is all you hear day after day.. just because others don't buy into the nonsense that they were unconditionally CHOSEN BY GOD..

That's a fallacious argument used to direct attention away from the fact that the doctrines cannot be supported from Scripture properly exegeted.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Please demonstrate why predestination, election and grace were only AFTER
God's foreknowledge.

I have done that already, look up my threads and read them !

 

[Tri Unity]

I have done that already, look up my threads and read them !

You miss the point: you may have demonstrated that they were after; not why they were after.

Grace comes after God's foreknowledge. It is the consequence of foreknowledge, not the cause it. So to is predestination and election the consequence, not the cause.

"those whom he foreknew he also predestined." (Romans 8:29)

As grace and election came after foreknowledge, they are therefore secondary. Secondary in sequence and in importance.

• Grace did not cause foreknowledge; but foreknowlede did cause grace.
• Election did not cause foreknowledge; but foreknowlede did cause election.
• Predestination did not cause foreknowledge; but foreknowlede did cause predestination.

God's foreknowledge preceded His grace and election, because grace and election were given because of God's foreknowledge. What did God foreknow so as to give election and grace? It could not have been election and grace, because election and grace came after foreknowledge. That which came after cannot precede that which came before. This is how complex your argument is. You make what came after precede that which came before... a distinct problem in physics. The problem of math only exists in your head because you are reading the scriptures back to front. You are stating an impossible argument. No babe could understand that which cannot be understood. You have turned the election of grace by foreknowledge into a riddle that cannot be solved - except by some clevor wordage to make something appear what it is not.

The modern "grace-teaching" has infected the minds of people and tickled their ears. It gives them licence to sin because "God's grace is sufficient". It stands on the foundations of Calvinism, and yet strict Calvinists reject this child they have spawned as indecent. The modern "grace teaching" is a child whose very parent (Calvin) denies birthing. Even the parent is embarrassed of the by-product. The teaching has birthed sin and liberation throughout all of the churches; and now the children are drunk on the wine of her fornication.

But seriously now... it's not biblical.

 

[Eventide]

Re: The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob...

Although I am against the whole Jewish Restoration thing (as a doctrine); I do accept that a mighty work will come from a small number of Jews in the end-times. They will probably be on the same par as the apostles. I expect God will give them "power to do miracles" so that the churches will be divided on whether or not it is a true work of God. Many who are closed off to God's revelation will not accept their testimony, because it does not accord to what our "beliefs" are. Either way, it will be exciting times.

IMO it's a serious issue to ignore that which the Apostle to the GENTILES warns us to not be ignorant of.. lest we become wise in our conceits..

How that they (Israel) are blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in..

How that they (Israel) are our enemies as concerning the gospel and yet beloved according to ELECTION.

This is perhaps outside the context of this thread so rather than bog this thread down with that.. we could start another thread to discuss these things if anyone would like to.

 

[Eventide]

That's a fallacious argument used to direct attention away from the fact that the doctrines cannot be supported from Scripture properly exegeted.

I get that impression at times..

 

[Tri Unity]

Re: The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob...

How that they (Israel) are blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in... How that they (Israel) are our enemies as concerning the gospel and yet beloved according to ELECTION.

I think you confuse the reference to "Israel" as being EVERYONE who is called an Israelite. That is a bit off. It was always a remnant who would be saved. When God saved the Gentiles - he didn't mean every single non-jew - he meant a remnant of the gentiles. It's not necessary to think of anyone with a different view to be "conceited".

 

[Eventide]

Re: The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob...

I think you confuse the reference to "Israel" as being EVERYONE who is called an Israelite. That is a bit off. It was always a remnant who would be saved.

Not at all.. I understand that not all Israel is the Israel of God, just as not all professing Christians are actually IN CHRIST.

When God saved the Gentiles - he didn't mean every single non-jew - he meant a remnant of the gentiles. It's not necessary to think of anyone with a different view to be "conceited".

Again, I agree.. although ignoring the mystery pertaining to Israel will result in us becoming wise in our own conceits.

What are your thoughts on this portion of scripture from Matt 19..?

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Now, we know exactly when the Lord Jesus Christ will sit upon His throne of glory because Matt 25 tells us.. and that is when He COMES in His glory..

 

[savedbygrace57]

triu

You miss the point

I have not missed anything, conditional election is false, you have not proved it, and I have many threads here proving that it is false, for Election is unconditional and its by Grace !

 

[Eventide]

IMO SBG is another perfect example of a 'reformed' person who can't even begin to fathom that he could be wrong..

That too is pretty sad imo..

 

[Eventide]

Review Quiz...

1. What must I do to be saved ?

a) Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved..

b) Nothing... I'm chosen by God..

2. Our hope of glory is..

a) Christ in you.

b) Christ and you..

3. Which of these is chosen by God ?

a) Flesh

b) Spirit

4. All in 1st Adam are condemned...

a) True

b) False... I'm chosen by God and there's nothing that can change that.

5. The Lord Jesus Christ alone is the Father's chosen in whom He delights ?

a) True

b) False, I am also chosen by God in addition to the Lord Jesus Christ..

 

[Eventide]

The FLESH wars against the SPIRIT..

Here's another simple proof why Our Lord Jesus Christ IS the elect and we are not..

Going back to the dual nature of the Christian life... Look at the two entities living within the same lump of clay...

1. There is me who was born naturally according to the FLESH..

2. There is Christ who was born in me miraculously by the power of the SPIRIT.

Which one is the elect, the chosen of God..?

See how really simple this is... Who in their right mind would tell us that their flesh is chosen by God?

Regardless, many would rather stick with election being Christ AND me rather than Christ in me.. after all... that's what all the big name scholars are teaching these days right.. that I am CHOSEN BY GOD.. and come on, how could they possibly be wrong about anything ?

 

[Tri Unity]

Re: The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob...

What are your thoughts on this portion of scripture from Matt 19..? And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Sorry if I misunderstood your previous comment.

Israel is often used in reference to the "Olive Tree". The Olive Tree represents "all Israel" - who are circumcised in the flesh and in the heart (Jews and Christians). That is why "all Israel will be saved". Israel "represents" the collective of God's people, whether it be Jew or Greek. The Church is represented by this depiction in these end times (since Christ), for there is no other name in which one can be saved. Israelites can only be saved through Christ (now); so there is no seperate destiny for Jewish Christians. The Jewish Nation will be judged though, and they have been gathered for this judgment. This will be during the tribulation, but they are gathered back already for this judgment. Matthew 19:28 is not speaking of the Nation of Israel; it is speaking of the "Olive Tree" which consists of Jews and Greeks (OT Jews and Christians). They also are being prepared to be judged. Peter says that "judgment must begin at the house of God." (1 Peter 4:17)

Also, when the scriptures say: "to the twelve tribes dispersed abroad. Greetings!" James was not speaking to the Jews who despise Christ, he was speaking to Christians. When Paul speaks of the "Israel of God", he speaks of Christians. (Gal 6:16). The "heavenly Jerusalem" also speaks to Christians. (Heb 12:22). In truth, these fully represent the Olive Tree, which is "all Israel" - from "Abel to Zacharias", as well as Christians. The Jews will be grafted back into this Olive Tree as Christians (not as a nation of Jews who reject Christ). I hope this helps.

 

[Eventide]

If I have told you earthly things and ye believe not...

Israel "represents" the collective of God's people, whether it be Jew or Greek.

No, actually, and according to the scriptures, Israel is JACOB and his twelve sons and their descendants. This could not be more clear in scripture.

GENTILES means all other nations except Israel.

The Church is represented by this depiction in these end times (since Christ), for there is no other name in which one can be saved. Israelites can only be saved through Christ (now); so there is no seperate destiny for Jewish Christians.

Once again (no doubt) this is the product of listening to the teaching of men in my opinion... who argue over and over again that because a person believes that Israel will be saved.. that they must believe that Israel gets some special deal or something.. clearly not the case.

The nation of Israel will be saved in the end in the exact same way in which the church of God is saved.. by grace through faith.

The Jewish Nation will be judged though, and they have been gathered for this judgment. This will be during the tribulation, but they are gathered back already for this judgment.

According to the scriptures, it's not going to be pretty... we're told plainly that two thirds of them will be cut off and die and the rest will be delivered through the tribulation.. in the time of Jacob's trouble.. or as what many refer to as the tribulation.. and it's also within the confines of the DAY of the LORD, the Day of Jesus Christ..

The DELIVERER shall come from Sion and shall turn ungodliness from JACOB.. remember Jacob.. the one who wrestled with God all night and prevailed.. and in the morning of that DAY the Sun rose upon him.. ?

Paul tells us that the night is far spent and that the DAY is at hand..

Matthew 19:28 is not speaking of the Nation of Israel; it is speaking of the "Olive Tree" which consists of Jews and Greeks (OT Jews and Christians). They also are being prepared to be judged. Peter says that "judgment must begin at the house of God." (1 Peter 4:17)

My bible says that His Apostles will be sitting upon thrones along with the Lord Jesus Christ and that they shall judge the twelve tribes of Israel.. nothing to do whatsoever with the church of God.. in fact the church of God was not yet in existence when this was stated to His Apostles.

Also, when the scriptures say: "to the twelve tribes dispersed abroad. Greetings!" James was not speaking to the Jews who despise Christ, he was speaking to Christians. When Paul speaks of the "Israel of God", he speaks of Christians. (Gal 6:16). The "heavenly Jerusalem" also speaks to Christians. (Heb 12:22). In truth, these fully represent the Olive Tree, which is "all Israel" - from "Abel to Zacharias", as well as Christians. The Jews will be grafted back into this Olive Tree as Christians (not as a nation of Jews who reject Christ). I hope this helps.

Did you know that there's not a single scripture in the NT which teaches us that the church of God is the Israel of God.. show me one if you can.. and imo it's by far one of the most serious issues in Christendom today, ignoring what the Apostle (to the Gentiles) Paul warns us to not be ignorant of lest we become wise in our own conceits..

How that they (Israel) are blinded in part UNTIL the fulness of the GENTILES be come in..

How that they (Israel) are OUR ENEMIES (Paul is writing to the church of God), as concerning the gospel and yet beloved according to God's election.. on account of the fathers.. the seemingly countless patriarchs of the OT which were justified by faith...

Doesn't make a lot of sense that they're the same thing.. does it.. and again, I challenge you to show one scripture which teaches that the church of God and the Israel of God are the same thing... because they're not.. Israel is an earthly entity with earthly ordinances and the church of God is a heavenly entity with our citizenship being in heaven.. not on earth...

Two completely different things.. things on earth and things in heaven..

 

[Tri Unity]

No, actually, and according to the scriptures, Israel is JACOB and his twelve sons and their descendants. This could not be more clear in scripture.

So when Paul said: "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and on the Israel of God;" are you saying that Paul meant JACOB and his twelve sons? After Paul just said that the mark of an Israelite, circumcision, does not avail any thing? What does not "avail any thing" mean to you?

You are confused about the metaphors of scripture. "For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a female slave, the other by a free woman. ...Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants. ...Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." (Galatians 4:22-26) Are you saying that the promise of the seed, to Jacob, was not an allegory?

I would be happy to discuss this in another thread, as this topic is on a different subject.

 

[Eventide]

So when Paul said: "For in Christ Jesus..

Allow me to stop you right there..

The nation of Israel is NOT in Christ Jesus.., they're blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in.. right now they're CUT OFF from the root and their house is left DESOLATE...

They will be grafted back in though, in the end, in that Day, the Day of the Lord, the Day of Jesus Christ... which shall come as a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child...

 

[Eventide]

Jesus of Nazareth.. the King of the Jews

IMO it's absolutely mind boggling and it glorifies our Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ beyond what we can even imagine..

All Israel shall be saved in the end.. DELIVERED, not destroyed... even though the dragon himself.. Satan and all the world comes against them... they shall be DELIVERED ! fascinating to say the least..

Can you see that Day approaching..

 

[Eventide]

News ?

I was just listening to a report today how that Israel wants the U.S. to make up its mind by September with respect to stopping Iran from developing a nuclear weapon.. and that they're going to take matters into their own hands regardless..

I can clearly see that Day approaching..

 

[reba]

All Israel? Who is all Israel.... Those who murdered Jesus. What of those who have a small amount of Jewish blood?


The blood in the veins of man is salvation?

Maybe if i keep asking i will get an answer been over a year and i keep asking....

 

[Tri Unity]

All Israel? Who is all Israel....

"All Israel" are the small number of faithful Israelites who were part of the earthly Nation of Israel up until Christ. After the passion "All Israel" meant those who are "the elect" of the gentiles and Jews combined who have faith in Christ. It also includes those of faith, such as Abel, Enoch, Noah and Abraham, who were not Israelites. They are also included in "All Israel". When the full number have come (into the Kingdom), then "all Israel" will be saved.

 

[Eventide]

All Israel? Who is all Israel...

The Israel of God Reba... Any Israelite justified by faith... Ya know, like all the ones listed in the OT, Jacob's descendants..

Those who murdered Jesus.

I doubt those who murdered Christ are the Israel of God... Certainly Israelites although not the Israel of God... For not all Israel is Israel...

What of those who have a small amount of Jewish blood?

What about them Reba... I don't know who they are... Although the Lord does..

The blood in the veins of man is salvation?

This is why it's pointless IMO to respond to you Reba, because you could care less about anything that I HAVE written here, I just said that Israel will be saved exactly as the church is saved, by grace through faith... But that doesnt matter one bit does it Reba..

Maybe if i keep asking i will get an answer been over a year and i keep asking....

Maybe if you'd actually listen once in a while... But seriously... I will not waste any more time with your nonsense.