Conditional Election... what is it, and is it biblical...?

[Eventide]

Mine Elect, in Whom My soul Delighteth !

Ephesians 1 is a great statement of election.

There are many Scriptures which could be quoted to illustrate both divine sovereignty and human responsibility.

Absolutely.. and to know that all things shall be gathered together in one, in Christ.. imo it says it all.

 

[Gordon]

Perhaps you're focusing a little too much upon us rather than upon the limitless glory of the Lord Jesus Christ, who is absolutely able to save every last one of us to the uttermost.. and there's no question in my mind that He loves us beyond what we can possibly understand.. because imo, we can't even begin to understand the depths of Calvary, where He alone bore our sins in His own body.. on that forsaken tree.

Thanks for the reminder. I am trying to understand my responsibility to current non believers. Like to me Jesus doesn't want North Korea to worship the "great leader" or whatever. I think conditional and unconditional election mean different things here. If it's conditional then can't I work hard save my money and sponser a missionary? Wouldn't I then be helping to bring someone to Jesus? If it's unconditional if I do nothing that just means other people are sponsering that missionary and he really did nothing other than turn on a light switch that God hadn't gotten around to yet? I'm not saying I am Jesus or saving anyone of myself but do I have an active role or a passive role? Like Jesus says whoever causes a child to lose faith in him is in big trouble. How could you cause someone to lose faith if it's unconditional? Is this what conditional election believes or is it still between the person and God alone?

 

[rrowell]

I'm not saying I am Jesus or saving anyone of myself but do I have an active role or a passive role?

Both passive and active in faith and obedience, the same thing that perpetually made the Apostles elect. you or I cannot save anyone, we can only (as the bible teaches) plant the seed, spread the Gospel to everyone so they can hear, for they (like you or I) must hear before they can believe, then when they believe they (like you) will be have to be faithful and obedient to the commandments of our Lord and the Lord will add them to His Church (the elect).

 

[reba]

Perhaps you're focusing a little too much upon us rather than upon the limitless glory of the Lord Jesus Christ, who is absolutely able to save every last one of us to the uttermost.. and there's no question in my mind that He loves us beyond what we can possibly understand.. because imo, we can't even begin to understand the depths of Calvary, where He alone bore our sins in His own body.. on that forsaken tree.

 

[reba]

Thats a pretty harsh teaching. I guess I can't tell if it means they have made the wrong choice or they can't make the right choice. So then the implication being either God favors a white woman in Ohio over a North Korean for a mysterious reason or the white women in Ohio happens to be more likely to repent for no special reason as everything is fair? Kind of confusing.

WOW i sure dont get that from the scriptures.... I get that God sees to it that we know there is God.
Maybe the Korean lady dosn't know "the sinners prayer" no matter God sees the heart.

 

[Gordon]

WOW i sure dont get that from the scriptures.... I get that God sees to it that we know there is God.
Maybe the Korean lady dosn't know "the sinners prayer" no matter God sees the heart.

Well for instance my grandmother was abused by catholic nuns. They put heavy burdens on her and treated her horrible. Would you tell her simply well that's no excuse? Or the atheists kids whose parents drive evolution into his head and laugh at Christianity? Your statement just doesn't seem to have a lot of compassion for the Korean to me. What would motivate you to preach to her with this attitude that God sees her heart and it's simply not Christian? I'm still not sure maybe God did make some of us just to die or smash us like pots. It just seems harsh teaching to me.

 

[Eventide]

Thanks for the reminder. I am trying to understand my responsibility to current non believers. Like to me Jesus doesn't want North Korea to worship the "great leader" or whatever. I think conditional and unconditional election mean different things here. If it's conditional then can't I work hard save my money and sponser a missionary? Wouldn't I then be helping to bring someone to Jesus? If it's unconditional if I do nothing that just means other people are sponsering that missionary and he really did nothing other than turn on a light switch that God hadn't gotten around to yet? I'm not saying I am Jesus or saving anyone of myself but do I have an active role or a passive role? Like Jesus says whoever causes a child to lose faith in him is in big trouble. How could you cause someone to lose faith if it's unconditional? Is this what conditional election believes or is it still between the person and God alone?

IMO your simple reasoning here is correct... what's the point in ANYTHING if everything is already determined and there's not a single thing that any person can do about it..

How in the world does that GLORIFY our Lord Jesus Christ ?

 

[reba]

Well for instance my grandmother was abused by catholic nuns. They put heavy burdens on her and treated her horrible. Would you tell her simply well that's no excuse? Or the atheists kids whose parents drive evolution into his head and laugh at Christianity? Your statement just doesn't seem to have a lot of compassion for the Korean to me. What would motivate you to preach to her with this attitude that God sees her heart and it's simply not Christian? I'm still not sure maybe God did make some of us just to die or smash us like pots. It just seems harsh teaching to me.

Trying one more time .....

What would motivate you to preach to her with this attitude that God sees her heart and it's simply not Christian?

I never said the Korean lady was not christian. I was impling the oppisit.. SHe may not use the words i/we might use....She may not know the name Jesus, even in her own language, that in no way implies she does not know Him . Her relationship with Him is what is important. Not how it may look/sound to you/me.
The lady may not know in her head what we might say are 'christian words'. God looks beyond the head beyond our failed words to our hearts/ spirits.
He looks through the cultures/ the hurts.. and sees our hearts.... We have so little grasp of His Grace of His mercy...

 

[Gordon]

Trying one more time .....

I never said the Korean lady was not christian. I was impling the oppisit.. SHe may not use the words i/we might use....She may not know the name Jesus, even in her own language, that in no way implies she does not know Him . Her relationship with Him is what is important. Not how it may look/sound to you/me.
The lady may not know in her head what we might say are 'christian words'. God looks beyond the head beyond our failed words to our hearts/ spirits.
He looks through the cultures/ the hurts.. and sees our hearts.... We have so little grasp of His Grace of His mercy...

Sorry for misunderstanding you. I am not familiar with the belief you can be a Christian without professing faith in Christ. So if the Korean lady was practicing some other religion like worshiping the "Great Leader" would she still be a Christian having not heard of Christ?

 

[reba]

Sorry for misunderstanding you. I am not familiar with the belief you can be a Christian without professing faith in Christ. So if the Korean lady was practicing some other religion like worshiping the "Great Leader" would she still be a Christian having not heard of Christ?

A persons salvation is not up to me it is up to Him... The traditions folks around the world grow up with are not necessarily what is in their hearts . ..How would i/we know anothers heart? HE does....

What does professing Christ mean...
Would i live in Iran and get on the roof top and shout Jesus is God....or would i keep my mouth shut and live in a quiet way to spread the gospel... Which is professing Christ?...
Is professing Christ the words we use? Satan can and does quote scripture.... I tend to believe it is someting in our hearts He sees along with our suroundings.

I have been blessed with living in the USA .... I tried to find the scripture that talks about those of us who are more blessed more is expected....

These thoughts often get me into hot water with some of my strict reformed friends...



As a moderator i should nudge this back to topic...

 

[Gordon]

A persons salvation is not up to me it is up to Him... The traditions folks around the world grow up with are not necessarily what is in their hearts . ..How would i/we know anothers heart? HE does....

What does professing Christ mean...
Would i live in Iran and get on the roof top and shout Jesus is God....or would i keep my mouth shut and live in a quiet way to spread the gospel... Which is professing Christ?...
Is professing Christ the words we use? Satan can and does quote scripture.... I tend to believe it is someting in our hearts He sees along with our suroundings.

I have been blessed with living in the USA .... I tried to find the scripture that talks about those of us who are more blessed more is expected....

These thoughts often get me into hot water with some of my strict reformed friends...



As a moderator i should nudge this back to topic...

I meant saying a sinners prayer to God. I think this is the point you become saved. I think somone going to Korea preaching the Gospel and people saying a sinners prayer is the point they got saved unless I'm wrong. Not sure what you meant about Satan quoting scripture and me using the term professing faith in Christ. I mean affirming your faith to God. I strongly question the idea my North Korean friend is saved never hearing the Good News. I guess that's off topic.

 

[Eventide]

I meant saying a sinners prayer to God. I think this is the point you become saved.

Gordon this is incorrect according to the scriptures.

God ALONE knows the heart and HE alone saves us by SEALING us with the Holy Spirit of God, AFTER hearing the truth, and AFTER we believe..

See Eph 1:13-14 for the portion I'm speaking of here.

It's vital to understand that saying a sinners prayer does NOT necessarily mean that a person gets saved.. because again, God alone knows true repentance toward God and what believing the truth actually is..

The very first post here also speaks more generally and it's from 2 Thessalonians Ch 2... there it says plainly that God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation THROUGH sanctification of the SPIRIT and BELIEF of the TRUTH..

 

[savedbygrace57]

Conditional Election... what is it, and is it biblical...?

Its not biblical, and it is a false gospel ! Election is of Grace Rom 11:5-6

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works or conditions:otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[Tri Unity]

Conditional Election... what is it, and is it biblical...?

Conditional Election is biblical, and it is the only gospel! Election is based on God's foreknowledge.

"those whom he foreknew he also predestined." (Romans 8:29)

The "election of grace" was based on God's foreknowledge. Foreknowledge of what? It was not of grace, because grace was the gift that came later to those whom He foreknew. It was also not based on works. God "foreknew" all of those who would "believe"; and these ones were consequently 'elected of grace'.

Misunderstanding this has led to all sorts of perversions of logic. It is really very simple, so simple a babe could understand... but those who misunderstand have distorted both the scriptures and logic. Calvin misunderstood, and he is now the "guide" who has taught many others his own distortions.

Tri

 

[savedbygrace57]

Conditional Election is biblical

Yes sure, in your mind it is !

 

[Tri Unity]

Yes sure, in your mind it is !

Please demonstrate why predestination, election and grace were only AFTER God's foreknowledge. Grace did not come first, it came later. Election did not come first, it came later. The first process of predestination was God's foreknowledge.

"those whom he foreknew he also predestined." (Romans 8:29)

You have confused the order and placed GRACE on a pedestal, whereas Grace was simply God's gift to those who He foreknew. This is the reason why "grace-teachers" have confused the gospel to be one of liberalism without the need of any works.

"Faith without works is dead." (James 2:20, 26)

This is why also "grace-teachers" try to deny James' teaching on works. They have the order mixed up, and they have insisted that we cannot do anything of ourselves to receive grace. This is just a distortion of the gospel. Even babes were intended to understand the gospel of election. The "grace-teaching" is one of the misguided offspring of Calvinism.

 

[Eventide]

Election is of Grace Rom 11:5-6

Absolutely, because we are saved by grace through faith, and even that is not of ourselves, it is the free gift of God.. Unto all and upon all that believe.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works or conditions:otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Couldn't agree more SBG

 

[Eventide]

Mine Elect

Would you like to know the absolute bottom line with respect to why election is conditional...

Because the Lord Jesus Christ IS God's elect, My Chosen, in whom My soul Delighteth..

Let's tally up the score here...

Election of the 1st Adam according to the flesh........... 0 %

Election in the Last Adam according to the Spirit......... 100 %

So do the math... If youre not in Him, then you're not the elect.

Simple as that.. And of course this is with respect to election unto salvation... As there is salvation in NO OTHER name.

 

[Eventide]

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob...

You know what it just as mind blowing IMO... That the nation of Israel is also His chosen.. Because even though they are enemies as concerning the gospel, they are beloved according to God's election..

And the goodness of God is going to lead that nation to repentance, and they will be saved in precisely the same way as His church is saved.. By grace through faith.

Can you see that Day approaching.. The Day of the Lord.. The Day of Jesus Christ.. It's coming.. And it shall come as a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child..

For the Deliverer shall come from Sion, and turn ungodliness from JACOB.. And all Israel shall be saved..

And in the end all things shall be gathered together in one, in Him... Things on earth, and things in heaven..

The Father Loveth the Son and hath given all things into His hand..

 

[Tri Unity]

Re: The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob...

You know what it just as mind blowing IMO... That the nation of Israel is also His chosen.. Because even though they are enemies as concerning the gospel, they are beloved according to God's election...

Although I am against the whole Jewish Restoration thing (as a doctrine); I do accept that a mighty work will come from a small number of Jews in the end-times. They will probably be on the same par as the apostles. I expect God will give them "power to do miracles" so that the churches will be divided on whether or not it is a true work of God. Many who are closed off to God's revelation will not accept their testimony, because it does not accord to what our "beliefs" are. Either way, it will be exciting times.