Anyone can indeed claim they are crucified with Christ.
Do you believe your body was born again when you were baptized in water?
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Was Paul Heretical in Teaching Sinless Perfection?
- Thread starter Hopeful 2
- Start date
Anyone can indeed claim they are crucified with Christ.
Do you believe your body was born again when you were baptized in water?
Corinth77777
Member
Are you saying that the resurrection scripture is talking about is now?
please explain what you mean- below in green....I think I know..but the wording a little confusing.
"Only by denying the death of the old you, and the resurrection with Christ of a new body, can you keep on denying the new body."
What does that mean- "not in the flesh"? Is that speaking of the body as meat? Or is it speaking about what man do in their natural ability?
What do you think the "old things" are based on the context?
Im in trouble now...lol
Well I asked that because you quoted this passage:
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10
Correct me if I'm wrong Hopeful 2
But you believe you are sinless, which means?
1. You don't sin anymore, right?
Do you believe you already have a new body?
I only heard of sinless perfection in passing. But I always thought perfect meant mature, fully grown.
I know there is a scripture that says something like be perfect as I am perfect. But I thought that meant perfect in Love.
I think God wants us to depend upon Him...
So back to JLB. What were you trying to point out by quoting that passage.
Because even if there is a such thing as sinless perfection is that scripture addressing who you are before you received the Spirit, or who you are after you received the Spirit and continue to remain in Christ? Would one need to confess sins if they're walking in the light.
And if there is no sin in Christ and the person is in Christ walking after the Spirit how do you compensate for that?
Some have only the claim, but not the corresponding lifestyle.
Yes.
Rom 6:3-4..."Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
The old "me" was killed and buried with Jesus.
The new "me" was raised with Jesus to walk a new life.
Rom 8:11..."But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."
The new "me" was made alive by the Spirit that dwells in the new "me".
Col 2:11-13..."In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Having "put off" the old "me", and buried "it" with Christ, the new "me" was then quickened with Christ.
Reborn.
Rom 6:4's "raised with Christ" and Rom 6:5:'s "likeness of His resurrection", are not the final resurrection.
Rom 6 speaks of our immersion into Christ's death, so if we are part of His death (and burial) so too will we be part of that resurrection He experienced after his death.
Buried with Him, and resurrected with Him, so we can walk in newness of life.
This was my response to someone who opined that there is still sin in them that have killed the old man and been raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
They can't see that the new man is a new, sinless, creature.
The only way for the new man to be sinful, is if it wasn't killed, buried, and raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
It is speaking about the worldly-fleshly oriented mind.
As opposed to the Christ-love centered mind.
Everything in totality.
Every aspect of the old, pre-repented, bereft of the Holy Ghost, self-centered, lust driven, servant of sin, old you.
Verses 6, 8, and 10, of 1 John 1, are addressing those who walk in darkness, which Proverbs 4:9 says is the "way of the wicked".
That walk is juxtaposed with verses 5, 7, and 9 which address those walking in, or about to start walking in, the light: which verse 5 says is God.
Walking in God is juxtaposed against walking in sin.
Correct.
I have a new body, but only in the context of having been reborn of God's seed.
I still await my glorified body, as did Paul in Phil. 3.
Instead of thinking about it as "sinless perfection", think of it as "righteousness".
You will find a lot more scriptures concerning that.
That is Jesus' command from Matt 5:48, and He doesn't command the impossible.
And isn't "perfect on love" the same as "perfect even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" ?
Sure He does, but don't you think He wants to depend on us too ?
As you buried your correspondence to JLB in your post to me, I don't know if she will see it.
You might need to copy your letter to her and paste it into a reply to her post.
In her writings to me, it doesn't seem like she can differentiate between walking in darkness-sin and walking in the light-God.
She only sees the verses that address those walking in the light as if they are still in darkness, and the verses addressing those walking in the darkness as if they are addressed to those walking in God.
If it as a lie to say one has no sin, (v8), it is because they still commit sin !
They are not walking in the light !
Corinth77777
Member
.
YES !
IF PEOPLE HERE KNEW THAT'S WHAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT Idoubt the 'd be against what you're speaking.
YES !
IF PEOPLE HERE KNEW THAT'S WHAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT Idoubt the 'd be against what you're speaking.
Corinth77777
Member
Roman 6 says it all
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Notes to self:
They were baptized into Moses, how?
also "Jesus Christ " in stead of " Christ Jesus"
The representation of Christ on earth.
So- teachings of Christ on earth.
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
... so basically no one should look to sin as their master. And what Hopeful 2 Is saying is if we believe we are sinners then
won't we sin. I had that conversation with my dad years ago.
Never really understood it, unless He is talking about positional Justification. What God has called. So He would say there are "sinner sinners" , then there are "Saints who sin."
Another words there are those who are called to live Holy but fail (fail on their way but get back up) And those who never stop sinning because they have yet to receive the Holy Spirit.
....if you were a sinner and now looked to Christ do you remain a sinner when God has called you righteous.
Does a righteous person remain in sin? Maybe, the key point is when we look to God we are now back in alignment. We stop dying. The wages for sin is death. Which if there is no death (seperation from God) are you sinning.
It's all in relationship to depending upon God to stop dying/sinning.
are you still a sinner if God has called you righteous.
Which does beg the question of rather the Spirit remains in a person who sins?
And it also beggs the question on how many interpret Ephesians 1:13
were you marked as God's possession?
Or were you Seal with the Holy Ghost?
So my question to anyone who can answer?
Can you be regenerated more than once?
Or can you be justified more than once?
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Well heres a place where sin exist, but its not to rule. That's like the question was Jesus capable of sin? And someone may answer yes, but why would He. The capacity for sin then can exist, but no reason to heed to it because your new nature and who you are becoming is against it. THAT MEANS IT IS CONTRARY TO WHO YOU ARE. AS AN EXAMPLE If I am a woman who desires a man. Then why would I go against my nature to desire a woman. I believe our clear conscience before God is a matter of living in our new nature. Living according to our call...
13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Why under the law did sin have power, or rule over them.
The law
out sin?
Therefore sin gave you a guilty conscience before God.
What does a guilty conscience do, makes you wonder if God is with you?.. ...
15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace?
What is the grace? Is it that Jesus died for the penalty of sin ......and He resurrected. So are they saying: if the penalty of sin has been dealt with why not sin? The next part may imply that just because the penalty of sin is dealt with under the law does not mean there are not consequences to pay under grace. Grace then to me is You don't have to try to win the battle over the flesh alone if you live in Christ. So then a person who does not obey the teaching of Christ is worse off than as if He remained under the law. For outside of Christ is Sin. And sin still results in death.
In conclusion God merely gave the opportunity for all men to come under His Rule through Jesus.
outside of being in Christ then is similar to being under the law- because the wages of sin Is still death.
God forbid. 16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 28Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20
For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousne21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Notes to self:
They were baptized into Moses, how?
also "Jesus Christ " in stead of " Christ Jesus"
The representation of Christ on earth.
So- teachings of Christ on earth.
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
... so basically no one should look to sin as their master. And what Hopeful 2 Is saying is if we believe we are sinners then
won't we sin. I had that conversation with my dad years ago.Never really understood it, unless He is talking about positional Justification. What God has called. So He would say there are "sinner sinners" , then there are "Saints who sin."
Another words there are those who are called to live Holy but fail (fail on their way but get back up) And those who never stop sinning because they have yet to receive the Holy Spirit.
....if you were a sinner and now looked to Christ do you remain a sinner when God has called you righteous.
Does a righteous person remain in sin? Maybe, the key point is when we look to God we are now back in alignment. We stop dying. The wages for sin is death. Which if there is no death (seperation from God) are you sinning.
It's all in relationship to depending upon God to stop dying/sinning.
are you still a sinner if God has called you righteous.
Which does beg the question of rather the Spirit remains in a person who sins?
And it also beggs the question on how many interpret Ephesians 1:13
were you marked as God's possession?
Or were you Seal with the Holy Ghost?
So my question to anyone who can answer?
Can you be regenerated more than once?
Or can you be justified more than once?
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Well heres a place where sin exist, but its not to rule. That's like the question was Jesus capable of sin? And someone may answer yes, but why would He. The capacity for sin then can exist, but no reason to heed to it because your new nature and who you are becoming is against it. THAT MEANS IT IS CONTRARY TO WHO YOU ARE. AS AN EXAMPLE If I am a woman who desires a man. Then why would I go against my nature to desire a woman. I believe our clear conscience before God is a matter of living in our new nature. Living according to our call...
13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Why under the law did sin have power, or rule over them.
The law
out sin?Therefore sin gave you a guilty conscience before God.
What does a guilty conscience do, makes you wonder if God is with you?.. ...
15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace?
What is the grace? Is it that Jesus died for the penalty of sin ......and He resurrected. So are they saying: if the penalty of sin has been dealt with why not sin? The next part may imply that just because the penalty of sin is dealt with under the law does not mean there are not consequences to pay under grace. Grace then to me is You don't have to try to win the battle over the flesh alone if you live in Christ. So then a person who does not obey the teaching of Christ is worse off than as if He remained under the law. For outside of Christ is Sin. And sin still results in death.
In conclusion God merely gave the opportunity for all men to come under His Rule through Jesus.
outside of being in Christ then is similar to being under the law- because the wages of sin Is still death.
God forbid. 16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 28Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20
For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousne21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(By taking part in what Moses took part in.)
(There is no difference between Christ Jesus and Jesus Christ.)
If we don't believe we can obey God, we won't obey God.4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
... so basically no one should look to sin as their master. And what Hopeful 2 Is saying is if we believe we are sinners then
How devilish is that ?
"Positional" anything is a ploy to incorporate sin amongst alleged believers.
It is a false doctrine for sinners who wish to claim allegiance to God...without the allegiance.
Only a complete cessation of sin is a real repentance from sin.
500 repentances are a lie before one real turn from sin.
No, (and I hope that was a rhetorical question)
The wages of sin is death, (Rom 6:23); but the death of the now righteous is satisficed by our immersion into Christ's death and burial, by water baptism.
Not if you answer the call.
If a person sins, the Spirit was never in them in the first place.
He will not reside in a polluted "temple".
Our actions will bear witness to our beliefs.
Only once, as the regenerated have been reborn of God's seed, and cannot bring forth the devil's fruit. (1 John 3:8-10)
Sin is the result of an act.
How can something that hasn't yet happened exist or rule over anything ?
OK.
Because they all walked in and after the "flesh".13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Why under the law did sin have power, or rule over them.
Those reborn of God walk in and after the Spirit.
It should make you know that God isn't with you.The law
Therefore sin gave you a guilty conscience before God.
What does a guilty conscience do, makes you wonder if God is with you?..
You have to quit using the colored fonts !!!
Some colors don't show up on a white screen.
Corinth77777
Member
Uphold me with thy free spirit
What denomination are you?
For some reason with what you been writing, the second work of grace kept entering my mind. Are you of the Holiness church?
One question?
What denomination are you?
For some reason with what you been writing, the second work of grace kept entering my mind. Are you of the Holiness church?
Corinth77777
Member
I could not read all of this but must continue later...But I'm sure His testimony is good from what I did read.
What ???
Christian, and of the Church by Christ Jesus (Eph 3:21)
I have no idea what a second work of grace is.
If the Holiness churches don't commit sin, then yes.
Corinth77777
Member
Teaching obedience to God and living it are two very different things.there are many other denominations with same teachings....
Corinth77777
Member
And you wrote that because?
Corinth77777
Member
Let God be true
God can make someone stand before Him
And they do not have to have all the correct knowledge. Thank God for God being God.
Thank God He looks at the heart.
Romans 14:4
I do not see anything wrong with telling people the Bible says to remain in Him.
JOHN 15: 4-11
But to get entangled with the term perfection which many define from outside biblical understanding can make people pause.
Gen 15:6
Romans 4:3
I can't say everything I don't mean by this, But God wants us to continually trust Him, <--- in that everything else will come to what it will be.
Proverb 3- see below
Psalm 37:3 - Trust in the Lord, and do good; dwell in the land and befriend faithfulness.
Psalm 28:7 - The Lord is my strength and my shield; my heart trusts in him, and I am helped. Therefore my heart celebrates, and I give thanks to him with my song.
Proverbs3
My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:
2For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.
3Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:
So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
5Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
8It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.
9Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:
10So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.
11My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:
12For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.
Blessed is He who Finds Wisdom
13Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.
14For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.
15She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her.
16Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour.
17Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace.
18She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.
19The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.
20By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop down the dew.
21My son, let not them depart from thine eyes: keep sound wisdom and discretion:
22So shall they be life unto thy soul, and grace to thy neck.
23Then shalt thou walk in thy way safely, and thy foot shall not stumble.
24When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet.
25Be not afraid of sudden fear, neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh.
26For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken.
27Withhold not good from them to whom it is due, when it is in the power of thine hand to do it.
28Say not unto thy neighbour, Go, and come again, and to morrow I will give; when thou hast it by thee.
29Devise not evil against thy neighbour, seeing he dwelleth securely by thee.
30Strive not with a man without cause, if he have done thee no harm.
31Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways.
32For the froward is abomination to the LORD: but his secret is with the righteous.
33The curse of the LORD is in the house of the wicked: but he blesseth the habitation of the just.
34Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly.
35The wise shall inherit glory: but shame shall be the promotion of fools.
That is where your fallacy lies.
Your body was not born again, but your spirit.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6
Your body contains sin, even though Christ is in you.
And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Plainly we see Christ being in us, yet our body still contains sin.
JLB
And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Romans 8:10
Christ is in us, yet our body does indeed contain sin.
Corinth77777
Member
Thank you for dat..
I just got through listening to the article I left using some type of app that reads to you. Fell to sleep on an off. But will listen again and again.
I do hope Hopeful 2 gets a chance to listen or read it too.
And I do think that person mentions that which you have said.
There were some things I did not agree with in hopeful 2 post
I believe when you receive the Spirit what God calls is.
So I believe in positional Justification
I believe we have different understanding of sanctification.
Set apart for God's work by God, progressive growth in righteousness
And I do believe in obedience to God out of love
However if I discuss water baptism as a way God can use to teach, or in an action of one's faith by which He saves, that does not mean I don't believe in obedience. That may means I believe God can use
any act of faith to deliver(save) and in this case it may have been water baptism. BUT ultimately it is God that saves.
So we do not have the same understanding there either.
Back to
Corinth77777
Member
L
You commented that there are many denominations with the same teachings.
I too have found "churches" that teach we are to be obedient to God, but when I ask them if they are, they give me the same old runaround, culminating in a NO.
So very true.
God will never demand more from us than we can handle. (1 Cor 10:13)
Me either, but many hate hearing it.
That is why I usually use an adverb in front of the word "perfect".
Like...sinlessly perfect, or...obediently perfect.
Otherwise folks will say that because we grow old and deteriorate, it means we can't be perfect before God.
If men believe and trust what God says is true, they are fully aware that their ongoing disobedience will garner a second death.
Yep.
Last edited: