Was Paul Heretical in Teaching Sinless Perfection?

[Corinth77777]

.

(By taking part in what Moses took part in.)

Which was

(There is no difference between Christ Jesus and Jesus Christ.)

Disagree-share later

If we don't believe we can obey God, we won't obey God.

True and false ...can you be in the will of someone and not know it?

How devilish is that ?

I do agree that we are at the mercy of our own ideals

"Positional" anything is a ploy to incorporate sin amongst alleged believers.

Disagree, that when God imputed righteousness to Abraham that it was " a ploy to incorporate sin" amongst Him.

I believe that righteousness is imputed as Scripture says, and then I also believe it is imparted. And belief in this is not a " ploy to incorporate sin"

It is a false doctrine for sinners who wish to claim allegiance to God...without the allegiance.

True but it does not happen because God imputes righteousness, but when people have been taught to trust a system of doctrine rather than Christ.

Which can mean at times that they believed they were forgiven of sins before they first trusted Jesus. Where they would be born again and Justified. Imputed righteousness. What's born of the spirit is Spirit.

Only a complete cessation of sin is a real repentance from sin.

That would imply you do not need to remain in Jesus anymore...is that true?

If you believe that then you would have to answer to all the times Israel needed to repent.
For you are implying after their repentance they did not fall and would not fall again. If it were true then God would not have interceeded.



God saves them from present circumstances.

500 repentances are a lie before one real turn from sin.

How was Israel's repentances to God a lie?
They either rethought their thinking or they did not. Their action showed they did.

No, (and I hope that was a rhetorical question)

The wages of sin is death, (Rom 6:23); but the death of the now righteous is satisficed by our immersion into Christ's death and burial, by water baptism.

I agree that the payment for sin is death Rom 6:23
But the second part...

Umm? Not sure how u got there..

Not if you answer the call.

If a person sins, the Spirit was never in them in the first place.

If you believe that answer this:

Uphold me with thy free spirit
8Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

9Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

He will not reside in a polluted "temple".

Makes me wonder what Jesus did when He went to the cross, or why He only needed to wash the discples feet once.
Or what it means to be made acceptable
Or why He says you are clean by the words I speak
Or how and where God hides His face

But please post that passage-tks

Our actions will bear witness to our beliefs.

Maybe- sometimes I find myself doing what I don't want to do...like going to the frig to eat when im not hungry, out of habit.

Only once, as the regenerated have been reborn of God's seed, and cannot bring forth the devil's fruit. (1 John 3:8-10)

The seed is the word- if the word dont remain then look below:

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

Lets try this on:


“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

First the meaning of transgress - to act in disregarding laws...

So if this is right definition then to commit sin is to disregard the law.

Therefore whoever is born of God does not disregard the priciples and teachings of God

For His word continues to remain: and He cannot diregard ( what is in him) the law. Because He is born of the Spirit. (The law is written on His heart)

Note on regeneration-
2 Cor 4
Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.

Sin is the result of an act.

How can something that hasn't yet happened exist or rule over anything ?

I dont remember what I wrote

OK.

Because they all walked in and after the "flesh".
Those reborn of God walk in and after the Spirit.

It should make you know that God isn't with you.

You have to quit using the colored fonts !!!
Some colors don't show up on a white screen.

(By taking part in what Moses took part in.)

(There is no difference between Christ Jesus and Jesus Christ.)

Disagree
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

One is in relation to His life on earth
The other is after His death His place now

If we don't believe we can obey God, we won't obey God.

true

How devilish is that ?

"Positional" anything is a ploy to incorporate sin amongst alleged believers.
It is a false doctrine for sinners who wish to claim allegiance to God...without the allegiance.

Only a complete cessation of sin is a real repentance from sin.
500 repentances are a lie before one real turn from sin.

No, (and I hope that was a rhetorical question)

The wages of sin is death, (Rom 6:23); but the death of the now righteous is satisficed by our immersion into Christ's death and burial, by water baptism.

Not if you answer the call.

If a person sins, the Spirit was never in them in the first place.
He will not reside in a polluted "temple".

Our actions will bear witness to our beliefs.

Only once, as the regenerated have been reborn of God's seed, and cannot bring forth the devil's fruit. (1 John 3:8-10)

Sin is the result of an act.
How can something that hasn't yet happened exist or rule over anything ?

OK.

Because they all walked in and after the "flesh".
Those reborn of God walk in and after the Spirit.

It should make you know that God isn't with you.

You have to quit using the colored fonts !!!
Some colors don't show up on a white screen.

OK, and protestantism spun off from catholicism, which spun off from something else.
So how do we choose the correct church ?
Start by asking them if they still commit sin.

You dont choose the correct Church...
You Trust Jesus

That was not where I was going. What I about was even if you are not from a Holiness Church that believe in something called second blessing your take on certain aspects are the same. For I see it in what you write.

Church of Nazarene similar teaching too

 

[Corinth77777]

2 Cor 5:17 says otherwise..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

I'm sure glad I no longer walk in or after the "flesh".
You don't have to either !

That just showed you don't do as you preach.
The key is to walk in Love
And that blow you just took answered all our questions about what you proclaim.

Now you playing judge
And you sound like the man in the article " I am so glad "I" dont" do what all you heathens do...

You are intent on introducing sin into Christ, but your efforts are just plain silly.
It is impossible for sin to be in Christ.

Why do you keep ignoring Romans 8:9 ?..."But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
Your POV is only valid in those who don't have the Spirit dwelling in them.
Fortunately though, a true repentance from sin and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins will rectify that condition !
Peter says in Acts 2:38, that those who do those two things will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Corinth77777]

"How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?" - Jn. 3:4

Thats not referring to Water baptism practiced in their time . But referring to a pysical birth in relation to a Spiritual birth

As mankind give birth to mankind

What is Spiritual will give birth to what is Spiritual

That is why Nic could not see

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Thats not referring to Water baptism practiced in their time . But referring to a pysical birth in relation to a Spiritual birth

As mankind give birth to mankind

What is Spiritual will give birth to what is Spiritual

That is why Nic could not see

Natural birth and water baptism are tightly connected. Water baptism is an initiation ritual. As a newborn emerges out of amniotic water, so is a new follower in Christ emerges out of water. Baptism is not a ticket to heaven, but a public declaration of faith. At the time of Acts, baptism means joining "the Way" cult and being excommunicated from the synagogue, it burns the bridge. Once it's done, it cannot be renounced as much as an old man cannot crawl back into his mother's womb.

 

[Corinth77777]

Natural birth and water baptism are tightly connected. Water baptism is an initiation ritual. As a newborn emerges out of amniotic water, so is a new follower in Christ emerges out of water. Baptism is not a ticket to heaven, but a public declaration of faith. At the time of Acts, baptism means joining "the Way" cult and being excommunicated from the synagogue, it burns the bridge. Once it's done, it cannot be renounced as much as an old man cannot crawl back into his mother's womb.

All im saying is that scripture you used is not speaking of water baptism...Jesus is explaining to Nic He must be born of the Spirit..as liken to the what is natural births what is natural.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Which was

...the escape from Egypt and journey to the promised land

True and false ...can you be in the will of someone and not know it?

By "will" are you referring to something read after one's death ?
Then sure.
Anyone we may have impressed in some way could include us in his final wishes.

I do agree that we are at the mercy of our own ideals

We are at the mercy of our own beliefs.
If we don't believe we can be perfectly sinless, we probably won't work to that end.

Disagree, that when God imputed righteousness to Abraham that it was " a ploy to incorporate sin" amongst Him.

Did anybody tell Abe' that he was only positionally righteous ?
Instead of actually righteous ?
"Positional" is juxtaposed against "actual" in nearly every case used by those who will do nearly anything to avoid the "actual".
It allows them to keep sinning while under the delusion that have anything at all to do with God.

I believe that righteousness is imputed as Scripture says, and then I also believe it is imparted.

Me too.

And belief in this is not a " ploy to incorporate sin"

It is, when the term is used to hide the truth.

True but it does not happen because God imputes righteousness, but when people have been taught to trust a system of doctrine rather than Christ.
Which can mean at times that they believed they were forgiven of sins before they first trusted Jesus. Where they would be born again and Justified. Imputed righteousness. What's born of the spirit is Spirit.

Exactly...a false doctrine.
Righteousness without being righteous.

That would imply you do not need to remain in Jesus anymore...is that true?

No, as remaining pure can only happen "in Christ".
We can only walk in the light as long as we are in God...in whom is no sin.

If you believe that then you would have to answer to all the times Israel needed to repent.
For you are implying after their repentance they did not fall and would not fall again. If it were true then God would not have interceeded.

As "old" Israel was before Christ came, the gifts of the NT were not available to them.
They could not walk in the light, or in the Spirit, or in Christ.

God saves them from present circumstances.

See above.

How was Israel's repentances to God a lie?
They either rethought their thinking or they did not. Their action showed they did.

If they did repent, they would not have repeated the same sins over and over again.

I agree that the payment for sin is death Rom 6:23
But the second part...
Umm? Not sure how u got there..

So you believe you will forever ?
I do, regardless of what happens to the vessel I walk in now.
It is written..."Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after." (1 Tim 5:24)
I died with Christ, for my past sins, at my "immersion" into Christ and into His death and burial. (Rom 6:3-7)
I got the wages of my sinful life.
Death.
Gracefully, however, I was also "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life". (Rom 6:4)
I am now a new creature.

If you believe that answer this: (Psalm 51:9)

That was written by and for men who walked in the "flesh", and couldn't walk in the Spirit.
Now in the NT, they truly repentant and washed can walk in the Spirit instead of in the "flesh".

Makes me wonder what Jesus did when He went to the cross,

Regarding ?

or why He only needed to wash the discples feet once.

How many times would have been necessary to show He was being the "servant", while being their Lord and Master ?

Or what it means to be made acceptable
Or why He says you are clean by the words I speak
Or how and where God hides His face
But please post that passage-tks

Keep walking in the light, and those answers will come.

Maybe- sometimes I find myself doing what I don't want to do...like going to the frig to eat when im not hungry, out of habit.

Is it a sin to eat when you are not hungry ?

The seed is the word- if the word doesn't remain then look below:
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

Cost and prize.

Lets try this on:
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”
First the meaning of transgress - to act in disregarding laws...
So if this is right definition then to commit sin is to disregard the law.
Therefore whoever is born of God does not disregard the priciples and teachings of God
For His word continues to remain: and He cannot diregard ( what is in him) the law. Because He is born of the Spirit. (The law is written on His heart)

Correct.

Disagree
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
One is in relation to His life on earth
The other is after His death His place now

Does it matter ?

You dont choose the correct Church...
You Trust Jesus

You won't choose the right church without Jesus' intervention.

That was not where I was going. What I about was even if you are not from a Holiness Church that believe in something called second blessing your take on certain aspects are the same. For I see it in what you write.
Church of Nazarene similar teaching too

I have visited both, and after their services, when I asked if they still commit sin they both said "YES".
It was like going to a KKK meeting and everyone there loves Blacks !
Incongruous.

 

[Hopeful 2]

That just showed you don't do as you preach.
The key is to walk in Love
And that blow you just took answered all our questions about what you proclaim.

Please rephrase that, as I can't follow your tracks ?

Now you playing judge

How so ?
You can do as I and all the faithful have been doing for 2000 years.
Where in any judgement in that ?

And you sound like the man in the article " I am so glad "I" dont" do what all you heathens do...

If you are not glad you don't do a the heathen are doing, is it because you are doing the same thing ?
BTW, YOU added the "all you heathens do" part.

Don't be so touchy. LOL

 

[Varsha]

With the thread that perfect obedience to God is a heresy, I thought I would search out some of the things Paul said about it.
Rom 3:20-22..." Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:"
I don't consider that heretical.
I have faith that his words are true, so the righteousness of God can be mine through that faith !

Rom 12:1..."I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."
I don't consider that heretical.
I have 66 more verses with more commands and exhortations to purity, righteousness, and perfection.
Besides the ones from Paul, I also have 34 more from the other apostles that agree with Paul.

We can be perfectly sinless, here on earth.

I appreciate your perspective on the concept of perfect obedience to God and how you interpret Paul's writings. It's clear that you find inspiration and faith in these passages, and it's important to have personal convictions in one's beliefs. While the idea of achieving perfect sinlessness may be a matter of theological interpretation and personal faith, it's wonderful that you find motivation in these verses to strive for purity and righteousness in your life. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and beliefs.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I appreciate your perspective on the concept of perfect obedience to God and how you interpret Paul's writings. It's clear that you find inspiration and faith in these passages, and it's important to have personal convictions in one's beliefs. While the idea of achieving perfect sinlessness may be a matter of theological interpretation and personal faith, it's wonderful that you find motivation in these verses to strive for purity and righteousness in your life. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and beliefs.

Thank you for the uplifting letter. from India.
But I am not striving for purity and righteousness.
I am striving to maintain the purity and righteousness that came with my repentance from sin and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of my past sins.
Rebirth from God's seed is inherent with purity and righteousness, as God's seed cannot bring forth the polluted and wicked.
Many people choose a religion in order to make themselves better people, but slowly and gradually.
Christianity is the religion of instant sanctification and justification.
Christianity is the religion of life in Christ from the first day.