Contradicting Beliefs

[Ernest T. Bass]

That was my point. When you come to a difference in doctrines you must go back to the bible and the specific scriptures your doctrine was based on and be sure that the verses are not being taken out of context. That is fundamental issue when it comes to differing views on doctrines is one or more parties is taking a verse, or group of verses, out of context and twisting it to fit what their preconceived doctrine is instead of reading the scripture in context and deriving the doctrine from there with the help of the Holy Spirit guiding your understanding.

You posted "When you come to a difference in doctrines you must go back to the bible and the specific scriptures your doctrine was based on and be sure that the verses are not being taken out of context."

My point in this thread is that since so much contradictions exists between the literally thousands of religious groups they cannot all be correct. They must be taking doctrines they have out of context else they would all be in 100% agreement. All these groups cannot be producing Christians.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Scripture does say that what is sin for one man, may not be sin for another, there's a can o worms right there. I hesitate to call myself a Christian, because I do not feel very Christ-like, yet I do because I live for the spirit and not for the flesh and would rather identify myself with God rather than the world.

The bible is the same standard for everyone. Adultery would not be a sin for one yet righteousness for another.

It would be a terrible thing to think that I was saved, and be spit out of Gods mouth, or bet rimmed as chaff and tossed into the fire. This is perhaps what I fear most. This is why we are to study to show ourselves approved and to have faith. We must trust that the Holy Spirit will impress the truth upon our hearts, as already noted.

When people of other denominations say to me how do I know that the Christians are right, and that perhaps the Muslims, or Mormons or whatever are the ones actually right instead, I say that I must trust that God has put the right book in my hand that would show me the way to God. I've had Christian bibles in my hand and home since I was a child. All religions say that God will save his people and no one ever stuck a Buddhist bible in my hand.

We must have faith in God. I believe that true faith will spur one to action and if one has not works and actions, then one does not have true faith. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

I was dealing with religious groups that just fall under the category of "Christiandom".

Baptists, Methodist, Catholics, Presbyterians, Episcopal, Assemblies of God, church of Christ, Church of God, Latter Day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses, Lutherans, Mennonites, Pentecostals, Seventh Day Adventists...among thousands more.

Can all these groups contradict each other, even on basic bible issues, issues dealing with salvation and yet all be Christians?

 

[CORE]

Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

The Holy Spirit is only given by the laying on of hands of one who has the Spirit. So there must be an unbroken chain from Pentecost, 31 AD until the present and the one who baptizes must have the Spirit and lay hands on the one baptized and ask that the Spirit be given to that person.

Are you sure that's the only way?

Acts 10 records how Peter went in with Cornelius and started preaching to the many gentiles that had been gathered. As he was preaching, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the Word. There is no indication of any laying on of hands.
It also records how those same gentiles received the Spirit before being baptized.

Acts 10:44-48
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


Now I don't see any contradiction in Acts 8 and 10. I simply see different ways in which God saved people, just as Christ healed people in different ways:

Some were physically touched. Luke 8:49-56
Yet others weren't even physically present to receive their healing.Matthew 8:5-17

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Agreed. I certainly wasn't talking about Audultery! The scripture escapes me at the moment, but I'm sure I read we are not to be a stumbling block for others, and what is sin for one, may not be for another and we should respect that. (I believe the implication was eating certain foods or something like that. Perhaps I should have been more clear.

Hi,

Some people's opinion or conscious may tell them that it is wrong to eat meat that has been offered to an idol while others see that there is nothing wrong with eating meat offered to idols for idols are nothing.


I am talking about things that are a matter of doctrine and not a matter of conscious or opinion.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Agreed. I certainly wasn't talking about Audultery! The scripture escapes me at the moment, but I'm sure I read we are not to be a stumbling block for others, and what is sin for one, may not be for another and we should respect that. (I believe the implication was eating certain foods or something like that. Perhaps I should have been more clear.

Hi Edward,
the scriptures you are talking about are found in Romans 14.
You need to read it, study it, and then ask questions about it. Many people on this forum have a great deal of understanding and it is certainly an important chapter for us to learn.

 

[Cassian]

I would like to say that it is not my purpose in this thread to say 'this group is right and those groups are wrong' but it is my purpose to show the impossbility that they can all be right and all be real Christians. Baptists, Methodist, Catholics, Presbyterians, Episcopal, Assemblies of God, church of Christ, Church of God, Latter Day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses, Lutherans, Mennonites, Pentecostals, Seventh Day Adventists, etc ete cannot all be Christians. All these groups believe things contradictory to each other, even on very basic issues. If one argues they can all be Christians then they are either saying God's word contradicts itself in what makes one a Christian or they are saying man's varying, contradicting opinions and not God's words determines what makes one a Christian.

All denominations are premised on the very same claims. scripture is authoritative. We also know historically all false teachings are based on scripture. The problem is how to determine the Truth. Each group might have a tid bit of Truth, but none have the Truth. Christ prayed that His Body be One as He is one with the Father. What happened to that unity? The Gospel He gave was also unified, there are not many gospels, so where is this unified Gospel? If it does not exist, then what is Truth but an illusion. Man has simply developed his own personal religion and the perfect way to be saved.

 

[farouk]

Some Christian groups put far more emphasis on Scripture than others, it may be said.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

All denominations are premised on the very same claims. scripture is authoritative.

I believe there are some groups that don't believe this. They think they have 'liberty' or some kind of freedom in Christ to do do as they please and if you 'quote scripture' to them they quickly call you a legalist. ANd quickly personal ideas become 'authoritative".

We also know historically all false teachings are based on scripture.

I would tweek what you say here by saying false teaching is based on wresting, twisting of scritpure. I would say most if not all false teachings/false doctrines begin as some person(s) preconceived idea then they try and wrest the scripture to get them to teach that preconcieved idea.

The problem is how to determine the Truth. Each group might have a tid bit of Truth, but none have the Truth. Christ prayed that His Body be One as He is one with the Father. What happened to that unity? The Gospel He gave was also unified, there are not many gospels, so where is this unified Gospel? If it does not exist, then what is Truth but an illusion. Man has simply developed his own personal religion and the perfect way to be saved.

I would say if none have the truth, then none would be saved. I do not see how one can be saved knowing only part of the truth. If one knew only part of the truth then one would be part in truth and part in error.

I think part of the reason why there are many different groups with contradicting beliefs is found in Eccl 8:11 "Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. "

Since "sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily" that means false teachers, false believers are set in their ways to believe whatever they desire. If God today began to speedily execute a punishment against false teachers I would see people conforming to 'the truth" very quickly and all the confliciting doctrines and contradicting faiths and "isms" would disappear soon.

As I posted "but it is my purpose to show the impossbility that they can all be right and all be real Christians. Baptists, Methodist, Catholics, Presbyterians, Episcopal, Assemblies of God, church of Christ, Church of God, Latter Day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses, Lutherans, Mennonites, Pentecostals, Seventh Day Adventists, etc etc cannot all be Christians"


So do you agree with my purpose purpose of this thread?

 

[Sinthesis]

As I posted "but it is my purpose to show the impossbility that they can all be right and all be real Christians. Baptists, Methodist, Catholics, Presbyterians, Episcopal, Assemblies of God, church of Christ, Church of God, Latter Day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses, Lutherans, Mennonites, Pentecostals, Seventh Day Adventists, etc etc cannot all be Christians"

So which of these groups are real Christians?

 

[John 8:32]

Are you sure that's the only way?

Acts 10 records how Peter went in with Cornelius and started preaching to the many gentiles that had been gathered. As he was preaching, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the Word. There is no indication of any laying on of hands.
It also records how those same gentiles received the Spirit before being baptized.

Acts 10:44-48
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


Now I don't see any contradiction in Acts 8 and 10. I simply see different ways in which God saved people, just as Christ healed people in different ways:

Some were physically touched. Luke 8:49-56
Yet others weren't even physically present to receive their healing.Matthew 8:5-17

Do we see this as a common practice? Do we see it today?

What was Acts 10 about? It was about changing the minds of Jews concerning the salvation of gentiles. It was a one off and required some miraculous events to convince Peter and the others that the gentiles were also in God's plan...

Act 10:19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
Act 10:20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.
Act 10:21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?
Act 10:22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.

Act 10:27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.
Act 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
Act 10:29 Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?
Act 10:30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
Act 10:31 And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.
Act 10:32 Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.
Act 10:33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Who? The gentiles. How many gentiles? Peter went to Cornelius' house and his close friends. This was not a "revival" meeting in a tent somewhere...

Act 10:22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
Act 10:23 Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.
Act 10:24 And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and had called together his kinsmen and near friends.

How about...

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

or was this a one off also? Do you see this occuring every Pentecost? No, this was a very dramatic occurrence which resulted in the birth of the church.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

So which of these groups are real Christians?

The one that goes by the bible. But you may say "They all go by the bible" But if they all went by the bible and the bible does not contradict itself, then why do all these groups contradict each other? That becasue they are not all going by the bible but by preconcieved ideas and then they try and make the bible conform to those preconcieved ideas. So the contradictions prove it is impossible that they all can be scripturally correct.

Since they contradict each other that means some must be using bad logic, bad reason, bad hermanutics. But by using sound logic, reasoning and hermanutics one can "prove all things", 1 Thess 5:21.


Some say faith only saves while others say faith that includes obedient works saves. Both are polar opposite and both cannot be right so some are on the wrong side of the issue and will be lost (so this is a serious issue). I do not know what side you fall on but which ever side you fall on how would you prove that side to be biblically true?

 

[CORE]

Some say faith only saves while others say faith that includes obedient works saves. Both are polar opposite and both cannot be right so some are on the wrong side of the issue and will be lost (so this is a serious issue).

We are saved by grace through faith, not a result of works:

Eph 2:8-9
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

We are created in Christ Jesus for good works.

Eph 2:10
"10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

It seems quite clear then that when one has actually been saved by the grace of God through faith, then that true saving faith given by the grace of God will produce good works, not the other way around. Those good works can be considered evidence of being saved, but they cannot be considered the agent by which we are saved, otherwise we could boast thus taking the Glory away from God.

Again...I see nothing contrary here in Scripture. Some people just seem hellbent on creating division and stirring up strife.

 

[WIP]

Again...I see nothing contrary here in Scripture. Some people just seem hellbent on creating division and stirring up strife.

Agreed but even those that do not have an agenda to create division do believe their understanding or the arguments wouldn't come to pass. For example, when I visit a southern state like Texas and it happens to get down around 40 degrees F. I will undoubtedly hear someone say, "It is cold outside!" I would have to disagree with them. For me, 40 degrees F is not cold at all and in fact, I rarely put on a jacket until it drops below 30 degrees F. When I think of cold I'm thinking -10 or lower with colder wind chills. The two of us could argue 'till blue and not come to an agreement. Likewise, to me 80 degrees F is hot. A Floridian would laugh at me for being a wimp.

 

[Cassian]

Ernest T. Bass,

As I posted "but it is my purpose to show the impossbility that they can all be right and all be real Christians. Baptists, Methodist, Catholics, Presbyterians, Episcopal, Assemblies of God, church of Christ, Church of God, Latter Day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses, Lutherans, Mennonites, Pentecostals, Seventh Day Adventists, etc etc cannot all be Christians"

So do you agree with my purpose purpose of this thread?

I agree that all cannot be christians. When they all have names that either elevate a person, a particular doctrine, or type of organization or any combination thereof, they are not united in ONE Christ.

 

[rrowell]

Agreed but even those that do not have an agenda to create division do believe their understanding or the arguments wouldn't come to pass. For example, when I visit a southern state like Texas and it happens to get down around 40 degrees F. I will undoubtedly hear someone say, "It is cold outside!" I would have to disagree with them. For me, 40 degrees F is not cold at all and in fact, I rarely put on a jacket until it drops below 30 degrees F. When I think of cold I'm thinking -10 or lower with colder wind chills. The two of us could argue 'till blue and not come to an agreement. Likewise, to me 80 degrees F is hot. A Floridian would laugh at me for being a wimp.

WIP,

Believe it or not, you give a better example than you may even realize...

Look at what really caused the division you describe, look at the "I"'s and "someone"s and "me"s and "Floridian"s etc...

When it comes to worship, it is exactly like you just described that brings the division..., if everyone would remember "He" is the audience, and worship "Him" the way "He" said "He" wants to be worshiped, then the "I"s and "we"s and "they"s and "us"s would not be "divided"

 

[Webb]

Hi WIP

May I make a comment on what you said about cold weather, one thinks 40 degrees is cold and another thinks its not cold until it drops below 30 degrees, and both are right by their own standsrds. Thats because there is NO Divine standard given in the scripture for what is cold weather. However, in Christiaianity, God has given the standard, the standard being the scripture, not what each one of us may think. With my soul I had better mean business. In the church we had better mean business, and by that I mean to stay as near the scripture as we possibly can. When I have done that, I leave the rest up to God.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

We are saved by grace through faith, not a result of works:

Eph 2:8-9
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

But faith is a work, Jn 6:27-29 1 Thess 1:3 The works Paul excludes here are works of merit and faith is not a work of merit but a work of righteousness.

We are created in Christ Jesus for good works.

Eph 2:10
"10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

The "we" in Eph 2:10 are those that have obeyed the gospel and become Christians.

(I actually used this verse in a thread I stared a little while back. That thread showed it was impossible for anyone to ever be saved without doing some type of work. One has to do obedient righteous works to become a Christian and do these god worksof Eph 2:10 to remain a Christian. As you point out in Eph 2:10 even Christians are to do good works and one cannot be a Christain without doing these good wroks that God pre-planned those that are Christians to do. If someone argued that one could be a Christian without doing these good works then they are arguing that what God predetemined can be undone or changed.)

It seems quite clear then that when one has actually been saved by the grace of God through faith, then that true saving faith given by the grace of God will produce good works, not the other way around. Those good works can be considered evidence of being saved, but they cannot be considered the agent by which we are saved, otherwise we could boast thus taking the Glory away from God.

Again...I see nothing contrary here in Scripture. Some people just seem hellbent on creating division and stirring up strife.

Lev 17:11 "For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood:..."

...and the life of faith is in the works. As you I and are dead without the life-giving blood then faith is dead without the works. Therefore a faith remains dead as long as it has no works and a dead faith can never save. Only until faith has works does it become a living, viable saving faith. A working faith is nothing to boast about for anyone can have an faith that works that so chooses.. Even though I have a working faith it will still not save me for I am still a sinner in need of grace, Lk 17:10 yet God's grace is received by only those that obey.

You say "that true saving faith given by the grace of God". So if the onlyway I can have faith is if God gives it to me, then whose fault would it be if I was a faithless person?




Scripture does not contradict itself, it is the man-made teachings that various groups hold to that contradict. If all the religious groups went by the non-contradicting bible as they all claim to then they would all be on the same page and not contradicting each other on issues of salvation, worship, etc. Can 'the truth' be found in contradictions? No. So why all the contradictions?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hi WIP

....both are right by their own standsrds.

Prov 21:2 "Every way of a man [is] right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts."

Prov 12:15 " The way of a fool [is] right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel [is] wise. "

Judges 17:6 "In those days [there was] no king in Israel, [but] every man did [that which was] right in his own eyes."


Yet,

1 Kings 15:11 " And Asa did [that which was] right in the eyes of the LORD, as [did] David his father."

1 Kings 14:8 " And rent the kingdom away from the house of David, and gave it thee: and [yet] thou hast not been as my servant David, who kept my commandments, and who followed me with all his heart, to do [that] only [which was] right in mine eyes; "



The contradciting beliefs and doctrines exist for people do what is right in their own eyes. If they did what was right in the eyes of the Lord then they would all be in tune and agreement with what the Lord wants instead of being in divisions over what they want.

 

[Webb]

My point was, it violates NO standard given by God for one to say its cold at 40 degreees and another to say, no its cold at 30 degrees. But when we speak of the spiritual, the Biblical, salvation the church etc., there is a God given standard to determine, that being the scripture.

 

[Free]

Can people or groups of people hold to contradicting beliefs on how to become a Christian/how to be saved [and other bible issues] yet all of them be biblically right/be "in truth" amid that contradition and conflicting beliefs?

One must first differentiate between those beliefs which are essential for salvation and those that are not. As long as there is agreement in those core beliefs, then they can be said to be "in truth," that is, true followers of Christ. If the rest conflict and contradict, it matters not, but there should always be movement towards resolving those issues.

To read the Bible is to interpret it through one's own lenses and hence form one's own beliefs and doctrines. There are several problems that follow, not the least of which is human nature and the desire to be right. This causes a resistance to change and a change in one's beliefs can be exceedingly difficult.

Other problems include a lack of understanding of the purpose and role of Scripture, a lack of understanding of the significant difficulties with biblical interpretation, and a lack of reasoning.

Suffice to say that no one church, denomination, or person has it all right, although some have more right than others.