Corporate Election in Christ

[Doulos Iesou]

Introduction:

The Biblical doctrine of election has been framed as of late a bit like this: "Does elect so that someone will believe and so be saved, or does God elect because one believes and is thus saved?" This is a false dichotomy of the doctrine of election as there is a third and I would say even more Biblical alternative.

Formerly it has been understood at the foresight view election.. that God looks down the corridors of time and elects those who he sees are believing in Jesus and persevering to the end. The other view is the Calvinistic doctrine of Unconditional Election, this view holds that God decreed to save some of fallen humanity (Infralapsarian view.. leading view) to the praise of his glorious grace, not on account of any foreseen merit or goodness pertaining to the person, but according to God's purposes.

The view I will be espousing is Corporate Election.

God Elects a People:

I will attempt to make my points brief so that this might be easier to respond to..

1. God in the OT elected a people.. not persons. God's purpose in election I believe is not to choose who will or will not be saved, but rather who will be his people for his name, to fulfill his purposes in the world.. to be holy and blameless before him.

The OT this was represented by the Israelites, that those who wished to be apart of the people of God entered into the Covenant previously made with the Covenant Representatives of Israel.. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. You see election to Israel was inseparable from the idea of Covenant. God elected 3 individuals, those previously mentioned, to be in Covenant with God and to produce a people for his possession, the nation of Israel.

This election was not absolute, the Covenant was sustained by the continuing sacrificial system and the obedience of the individuals in the Covenant. While God always remained faithful to the Covenant people, persons were indeed cut off for transgressing the Covenant they had entered into.

2. New Covenant.. Election in Christ for all who believe, Jew and Gentile. God's purpose in electing the nation of Israel out of all the other nations was not so that every nation might sink into sin and oblivion, but so that through Abraham's seed he might bless all the NATIONS.. GENTILES.

Ephesians 1-3 unveils the mystery of the gospel, that through the Messiah God has from the foundation of the world decreed that a people for his possession be found in the Messiah, that those who belong to Jesus are the elect.

That much like the OT Covenant God elected a Covenant Representative head, Jesus the Messiah. Those who are apart of the New Covenant family called the Church.. the body of Christ are the continuation of the people of God. Found anew in the Messiah. This extension to the Gentiles from the foundation of the world is proven through the promise of Abraham alluding to the future inclusion of the Gentiles, thus revealing God's purposes.

Conclusion:

Therefore, because God elects a people rather than persons, let us not regard ourselves as individuals in relationship with God. But always remember that we are members of one another and that God's expression of love for us, leads to a similar expression of love for the brothers. He laid down his life for us.. and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers.

For God has elected a people through Jesus.. and he has adopted a family through Jesus. We who are in Christ are those of that Covenant family membership, where we corporately find our identity in Him. Where there is neither Jew nor Gentile, Slave nor Free, Male nor Female, nor any other distinction... but Christ is all and in all.

Blessings to you all.. look forward to your feedback,
Servant of Jesus

 

[Webb]

Now connect the above with Gal.3:23-29 and you have a post well done.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Now connect the above with Gal.3:23-29 and you have a post well done.

Well my hope was that those who had a pretty good knowledge of Scripture would have those texts resound and affirm this view. How else would you like me to tie Galatians 3:23-29 with this view? As you can see my view of election stretches outside of the texts that usually are perceived as dealing with the issue. My attempt is to have a more Jewish and OT understanding of Election as the authors of the NT would have had.. and have that redefined in Jesus the Messiah. This is what I think the Biblical view of election is.

 

[gr8grace]

Introduction:

The Biblical doctrine of election has been framed as of late a bit like this: "Does elect so that someone will believe and so be saved, or does God elect because one believes and is thus saved?" This is a false dichotomy of the doctrine of election as there is a third and I would say even more Biblical alternative.

Formerly it has been understood at the foresight view election.. that God looks down the corridors of time and elects those who he sees are believing in Jesus and persevering to the end. The other view is the Calvinistic doctrine of Unconditional Election, this view holds that God decreed to save some of fallen humanity (Infralapsarian view.. leading view) to the praise of his glorious grace, not on account of any foreseen merit or goodness pertaining to the person, but according to God's purposes.

The view I will be espousing is Corporate Election.

God Elects a People:

I will attempt to make my points brief so that this might be easier to respond to..

1. God in the OT elected a people.. not persons. God's purpose in election I believe is not to choose who will or will not be saved, but rather who will be his people for his name, to fulfill his purposes in the world.. to be holy and blameless before him.

The OT this was represented by the Israelites, that those who wished to be apart of the people of God entered into the Covenant previously made with the Covenant Representatives of Israel.. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. You see election to Israel was inseparable from the idea of Covenant. God elected 3 individuals, those previously mentioned, to be in Covenant with God and to produce a people for his possession, the nation of Israel.

This election was not absolute, the Covenant was sustained by the continuing sacrificial system and the obedience of the individuals in the Covenant. While God always remained faithful to the Covenant people, persons were indeed cut off for transgressing the Covenant they had entered into.

2. New Covenant.. Election in Christ for all who believe, Jew and Gentile. God's purpose in electing the nation of Israel out of all the other nations was not so that every nation might sink into sin and oblivion, but so that through Abraham's seed he might bless all the NATIONS.. GENTILES.

Ephesians 1-3 unveils the mystery of the gospel, that through the Messiah God has from the foundation of the world decreed that a people for his possession be found in the Messiah, that those who belong to Jesus are the elect.

That much like the OT Covenant God elected a Covenant Representative head, Jesus the Messiah. Those who are apart of the New Covenant family called the Church.. the body of Christ are the continuation of the people of God. Found anew in the Messiah. This extension to the Gentiles from the foundation of the world is proven through the promise of Abraham alluding to the future inclusion of the Gentiles, thus revealing God's purposes.

Conclusion:

Therefore, because God elects a people rather than persons, let us not regard ourselves as individuals in relationship with God. But always remember that we are members of one another and that God's expression of love for us, leads to a similar expression of love for the brothers. He laid down his life for us.. and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers.

For God has elected a people through Jesus.. and he has adopted a family through Jesus. We who are in Christ are those of that Covenant family membership, where we corporately find our identity in Him. Where there is neither Jew nor Gentile, Slave nor Free, Male nor Female, nor any other distinction... but Christ is all and in all.

Blessings to you all.. look forward to your feedback,
Servant of Jesus

So what is the purpose of Gods elected people? What is the purpose of His elected Church? What was His purpose For Israel in the OT?

Israels purpose was to Bring God and His message to INDIVIDUALS that did not know God.

The Churches purpose is to Bring the Gospel to INDIVIDUALS that have not heard it.

Jesus Christ is a personal and intimate Savior, He sees everybody as a specific person and a unique individual that has a specific role in His Plan. He Is a personal Savior and wishes to have a personal specific relationship with His creatures.

Gods purpose is to save INDIVIDUALS and Have a personal relationship with that INDIVIDUAL.

I can see on one level what you are saying. But God does not look at his Church as an elected machine. He looks at His Church as elected individuals that He personally cares for and has a specific role for every individual. To take individuality out of the Church, is to take the personal relationship out we each can have with a personal Savior.

And Gods election, without a doubt, pertains to individuals and their personal volition to believe on His Son.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

So what is the purpose of Gods elected people? What is the purpose of His elected Church? What was His purpose For Israel in the OT?

Hi gr8grace,

Great questions, due to the length of my first post I didn't want to open up with too much content so I figured I would answer these questions as we went along.

I will begin with pointing out that the Corporate election does not nullify the importance of the individual within the Corporate structure of the body, however the individuality and corporate nature to our relationship with God cannot be divorced.

Also, the purpose of God in electing a people is:

1. As you noted for the continued Corporate people of God to grow through the redeemed body, the Church is not a closed off entity but the Corporate election structure allows for it's continued number to increase without a limit for it's identity is not in the purposes for the individuals that comprise it, but the person Jesus Christ who they now corporately embody.
2. They are also elected for the purpose of being holy and blameless, God elected Israel to a people for his possession, to be holy and blameless and be in Covenant relationship with. Much like that, God decreed from the foundation of the earth that he would make a people from Jews and Gentiles in the Messiah Jesus to be the ultimate fulfillment of this purpose.
3. To be a kingdom of kings and priests in the new creation. Ultimately God is restoring humanity through his people, by predestining that those in Christ would be conformed to Christ and thus restored to proper image of God and dominion of wise human stewardship over the creation.

There is maybe more I could say on this, but for now hopefully that will suffice.

Israels purpose was to Bring God and His message to INDIVIDUALS that did not know God.

Amen, and God ultimately fulfilled that in the Messiah, who is now the Covenant Representative of the people of God, those who are in the Messiah share in his blessings and status. Therefore, in Christ we have every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places.. for that is where Christ is seated.

The Churches purpose is to Bring the Gospel to INDIVIDUALS that have not heard it.

Amen, we as the body of Christ are to be Christ incarnated into the world at the present time to fulfill his ministry of reconciliation.

Jesus Christ is a personal and intimate Savior, He sees everybody as a specific person and a unique individual that has a specific role in His Plan.

This I am afraid comes from more of a western individualistic mindset, of course Jesus is the good shepherd who doesn't just care for the corporate health of his sheep, but will leave the 99 for 1. However, I think we need to understand that it is not just us individually who are the temple of God, but us corporately are the temple of God. You'll see that God's Covenant Relationship is not best represented by any focus on one or the other, individual or corporate. But it is both as I have demonstrated, it is not either or but both and.

Gods purpose is to save INDIVIDUALS and Have a personal relationship with that INDIVIDUAL.

What purpose is he saving people for?

God is restoring humanity through his Covenant people represented in Jesus the Messiah, who now work on his behalf empowered as his representatives to restore creation and bring his kingdom on earth as it is in heaven.

I can see on one level what you are saying. But God does not look at his Church as an elected machine.

Amen, we are the living moving body of Christ indwelt by the Holy Spirit to be God's agents of reconciliation and restoration in the world.

He looks at His Church as elected individuals that He personally cares for and has a specific role for every individual.

Though the body of Christ had individual parts.. they are members of one another, they compliment and work together and cannot be separated.

To take individuality out of the Church, is to take the personal relationship out we each can have with a personal Savior.

I'm not taking individuality out of the Church, I'm attempting to put in the explicitly corporate nature to the Church as well which has been greatly ignored. We cannot hold onto one treasured doctrine at the expense of another, we have to be fully and Biblically consistent with what has been revealed, personal preference must yield.

And Gods election, without a doubt, pertains to individuals and their personal volition to believe on His Son.

This has yet to be proven by you, what text do you offer as proof of this?

 

[Webb]

Now connect the above with Gal.3:23-29 and you have a post well done.

Well my hope was that those who had a pretty good knowledge of Scripture would have those texts resound and affirm this view. How else would you like me to tie Galatians 3:23-29 with this view? As you can see my view of election stretches outside of the texts that usually are perceived as dealing with the issue. My attempt is to have a more Jewish and OT understanding of Election as the authors of the NT would have had.. and have that redefined in Jesus the Messiah. This is what I think the Biblical view of election is.

Galatians 3:23-29 teaches how we as individuals become part of that "one body" ( "Corporate" as I assume you use it, though the word is not in scripture ) and are found "in Christ" wherein are "all spirituial blessngs", Ephesians 1:3.

 

[Butch5]

Now connect the above with Gal.3:23-29 and you have a post well done.

Well my hope was that those who had a pretty good knowledge of Scripture would have those texts resound and affirm this view. How else would you like me to tie Galatians 3:23-29 with this view? As you can see my view of election stretches outside of the texts that usually are perceived as dealing with the issue. My attempt is to have a more Jewish and OT understanding of Election as the authors of the NT would have had.. and have that redefined in Jesus the Messiah. This is what I think the Biblical view of election is.

If you're looking for a more Jewish understanding of election you might be interested in these articles. Ephesians 1 and Romans 8:28-30.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Now connect the above with Gal.3:23-29 and you have a post well done.

Well my hope was that those who had a pretty good knowledge of Scripture would have those texts resound and affirm this view. How else would you like me to tie Galatians 3:23-29 with this view? As you can see my view of election stretches outside of the texts that usually are perceived as dealing with the issue. My attempt is to have a more Jewish and OT understanding of Election as the authors of the NT would have had.. and have that redefined in Jesus the Messiah. This is what I think the Biblical view of election is.

If you're looking for a more Jewish understanding of election you might be interested in these articles. Ephesians 1 and Romans 8:28-30.

Thank you for your contribution to the thread Butch, what I have read so far reflects how I see these passages as well.

 

[Butch5]

Now connect the above with Gal.3:23-29 and you have a post well done.

Well my hope was that those who had a pretty good knowledge of Scripture would have those texts resound and affirm this view. How else would you like me to tie Galatians 3:23-29 with this view? As you can see my view of election stretches outside of the texts that usually are perceived as dealing with the issue. My attempt is to have a more Jewish and OT understanding of Election as the authors of the NT would have had.. and have that redefined in Jesus the Messiah. This is what I think the Biblical view of election is.

If you're looking for a more Jewish understanding of election you might be interested in these articles. Ephesians 1 and Romans 8:28-30.

Thank you for your contribution to the thread Butch, what I have read so far reflects how I see these passages as well.

I thought they might. Hopefully the will yield additional information.

 

[Grappler]

Introduction:

The Biblical doctrine of election has been framed as of late a bit like this: "Does elect so that someone will believe and so be saved, or does God elect because one believes and is thus saved?" This is a false dichotomy of the doctrine of election as there is a third and I would say even more Biblical alternative.

Formerly it has been understood at the foresight view election.. that God looks down the corridors of time and elects those who he sees are believing in Jesus and persevering to the end. The other view is the Calvinistic doctrine of Unconditional Election, this view holds that God decreed to save some of fallen humanity (Infralapsarian view.. leading view) to the praise of his glorious grace, not on account of any foreseen merit or goodness pertaining to the person, but according to God's purposes.

The view I will be espousing is Corporate Election.

God Elects a People:

I will attempt to make my points brief so that this might be easier to respond to..

1. God in the OT elected a people.. not persons. God's purpose in election I believe is not to choose who will or will not be saved, but rather who will be his people for his name, to fulfill his purposes in the world.. to be holy and blameless before him.

The OT this was represented by the Israelites, that those who wished to be apart of the people of God entered into the Covenant previously made with the Covenant Representatives of Israel.. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. You see election to Israel was inseparable from the idea of Covenant. God elected 3 individuals, those previously mentioned, to be in Covenant with God and to produce a people for his possession, the nation of Israel.

This election was not absolute, the Covenant was sustained by the continuing sacrificial system and the obedience of the individuals in the Covenant. While God always remained faithful to the Covenant people, persons were indeed cut off for transgressing the Covenant they had entered into.

2. New Covenant.. Election in Christ for all who believe, Jew and Gentile. God's purpose in electing the nation of Israel out of all the other nations was not so that every nation might sink into sin and oblivion, but so that through Abraham's seed he might bless all the NATIONS.. GENTILES.

Ephesians 1-3 unveils the mystery of the gospel, that through the Messiah God has from the foundation of the world decreed that a people for his possession be found in the Messiah, that those who belong to Jesus are the elect.

That much like the OT Covenant God elected a Covenant Representative head, Jesus the Messiah. Those who are apart of the New Covenant family called the Church.. the body of Christ are the continuation of the people of God. Found anew in the Messiah. This extension to the Gentiles from the foundation of the world is proven through the promise of Abraham alluding to the future inclusion of the Gentiles, thus revealing God's purposes.

Conclusion:

Therefore, because God elects a people rather than persons, let us not regard ourselves as individuals in relationship with God. But always remember that we are members of one another and that God's expression of love for us, leads to a similar expression of love for the brothers. He laid down his life for us.. and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers.

For God has elected a people through Jesus.. and he has adopted a family through Jesus. We who are in Christ are those of that Covenant family membership, where we corporately find our identity in Him. Where there is neither Jew nor Gentile, Slave nor Free, Male nor Female, nor any other distinction... but Christ is all and in all.

Blessings to you all.. look forward to your feedback,
Servant of Jesus

I think i will stick with what you referred to as the Calvinistic doctrine of unconditional election...it makes more sense to me. Your view is interesting though but the first view you mentioned as being God looking forward in time and then electing someone because they first elected to follow Jesus is illogical and oxymoronic.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I think i will stick with what you referred to as the Calvinistic doctrine of unconditional election...it makes more sense to me. Your view is interesting though but the first view you mentioned as being God looking forward in time and then electing someone because they first elected to follow Jesus is illogical and oxymoronic.

Hi Grappler,

I'm curious how you reconcile the OT understanding of election with Calvinistic doctrine.. for example let's examine Deuteronomy 7..

Deuteronomy 7

For you are a holy people for Yahweh your God; Yahweh your God has chosen you to be for him a people, a treasured possession from among all the peoples that are on the face of the earth. (Dt 7:6).

In the OT of course Israel was God's chosen people, in some ways the election of Israel functioned somewhat like the Calvinist view of election. How he chose corporately the nation of Israel out of every other people group on the face of the earth. Of course God had intended to bless all the nations through Israel, but that's besides the point.

Yahweh loved you and chose you not because of your great number exceeding all other peoples, for you are fewer than all of the peoples, (Dt 7:7).

Notice how he is pointing to nothing within them for the reason for his choice, well at least that is how it sounds. From this point it almost looks like this passage is teaching unconditional election, however that's not all this passage says.

but because of the love of Yahweh for you and because of his keeping of the sworn oath that he swore to your ancestors, Yahweh brought you out with a strong hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh, the king of Egypt. (Dt 7:8).

"because of his keeping of the sworn oath that he swore to your ancestors (Literally "fathers), God's continued faithfulness and seeking and choosing and loving and redeeming Israel was because of the Covenant he made particularly with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob. Did this guarantee individuals being incorporated into this elect people?

So know that Yahweh your God, he is God, the trustworthy God, maintaining his covenant and his loyal love with those who love him and with those who keep his commandments to a thousand generations, (Dt 7:9).

This was not a one sided Covenant but was contingent on the other party "keep his commandments." God is not arbitrarily establishing Covenants here, he is doing so on behalf of the Covenant Representatives of Israel (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob) and because of the continued obedience of the Israelites. When a person broke this Covenant they would be cut off from the people.

And as for any uncircumcised male who has not circumcised the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people. He has broken my covenant. (Ge 17:14).

Being apart of the elect people of Israel was not a guarantee, but it was conditional upon being in a maintained Covenantal relationship with God and his people.

This verse sums up the previous statements.

And then because you listen to these regulations and you diligently keep and you do them, then Yahweh your God will maintain his covenant and his loyal love that he swore to your ancestors. (Dt 7:12).

Why does God maintain his covenant and his loyal love that he swore to their fathers? "Because" they not only listen to the regulations but also keep them and do them.

Compare these remarks given in Deuteronomy 7 with the Westminster Confession of faith:

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished.

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, to everlasting glory, out of his free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereto; and all to the praise of his glorious grace.

This says that it is nothing within them as for his election, which we see the election of Israel cannot be separated from the covenant language. The covenant and thus election of Israel was conditional for the individuals comprising Israel. This absolutely contradicts the teachings of the Reformed tradition, and as such should be rejected as unscriptural.

Let me know what you think.

 

[Grappler]

I think i will stick with what you referred to as the Calvinistic doctrine of unconditional election...it makes more sense to me. Your view is interesting though but the first view you mentioned as being God looking forward in time and then electing someone because they first elected to follow Jesus is illogical and oxymoronic.

Hi Grappler,

I'm curious how you reconcile the OT understanding of election with Calvinistic doctrine.. for example let's examine Deuteronomy 7..

Deuteronomy 7

For you are a holy people for Yahweh your God; Yahweh your God has chosen you to be for him a people, a treasured possession from among all the peoples that are on the face of the earth. (Dt 7:6).

In the OT of course Israel was God's chosen people, in some ways the election of Israel functioned somewhat like the Calvinist view of election. How he chose corporately the nation of Israel out of every other people group on the face of the earth. Of course God had intended to bless all the nations through Israel, but that's besides the point.

Yahweh loved you and chose you not because of your great number exceeding all other peoples, for you are fewer than all of the peoples, (Dt 7:7).

Notice how he is pointing to nothing within them for the reason for his choice, well at least that is how it sounds. From this point it almost looks like this passage is teaching unconditional election, however that's not all this passage says.

but because of the love of Yahweh for you and because of his keeping of the sworn oath that he swore to your ancestors, Yahweh brought you out with a strong hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh, the king of Egypt. (Dt 7:8).

"because of his keeping of the sworn oath that he swore to your ancestors (Literally "fathers), God's continued faithfulness and seeking and choosing and loving and redeeming Israel was because of the Covenant he made particularly with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob. Did this guarantee individuals being incorporated into this elect people?

So know that Yahweh your God, he is God, the trustworthy God, maintaining his covenant and his loyal love with those who love him and with those who keep his commandments to a thousand generations, (Dt 7:9).

This was not a one sided Covenant but was contingent on the other party "keep his commandments." God is not arbitrarily establishing Covenants here, he is doing so on behalf of the Covenant Representatives of Israel (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob) and because of the continued obedience of the Israelites. When a person broke this Covenant they would be cut off from the people.

And as for any uncircumcised male who has not circumcised the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people. He has broken my covenant. (Ge 17:14).

Being apart of the elect people of Israel was not a guarantee, but it was conditional upon being in a maintained Covenantal relationship with God and his people.

This verse sums up the previous statements.

And then because you listen to these regulations and you diligently keep and you do them, then Yahweh your God will maintain his covenant and his loyal love that he swore to your ancestors. (Dt 7:12).

Why does God maintain his covenant and his loyal love that he swore to their fathers? "Because" they not only listen to the regulations but also keep them and do them.

Compare these remarks given in Deuteronomy 7 with the Westminster Confession of faith:

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished.

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, to everlasting glory, out of his free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereto; and all to the praise of his glorious grace.

This says that it is nothing within them as for his election, which we see the election of Israel cannot be separated from the covenant language. The covenant and thus election of Israel was conditional for the individuals comprising Israel. This absolutely contradicts the teachings of the Reformed tradition, and as such should be rejected as unscriptural.

Let me know what you think.

I don't really see the need to reconcile the Old Testament teaching of God choosing Abraham out of the Gentiles in order to make a people unto Himself with the New Testament teachings of predestination and election. God chose Israel to be His people. We see from the teachings of Paul in Romans 9 that even within the "corporate election" of Israel that he chose individuals to whom he will love or hate. The example would be Esau and Jacob. Paul teaches that we were chosen before the foundation of the world to be his people. The teaching of the potter and the clay is definitely a example of unconditional election. God being the potter molds some the clay (mankind) to be vessels to show his mercy and others to be vessels to show his wrath. These vessels represent individuals not corporations. What do you think?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I don't really see the need to reconcile the Old Testament teaching of God choosing Abraham out of the Gentiles in order to make a people unto Himself with the New Testament teachings of predestination and election. God chose Israel to be His people.

You see this fits better with my view, as I realize that God elects individuals to be Covenant Representatives who he then brings a people forth from those individuals. The individuals who comprised Israel were then counted as apart of the Covenant people by their continued obedience to the Covenant as proven by the passages I cited above. This is incompatible with the Reformed view.

We see from the teachings of Paul in Romans 9 that even within the "corporate election" of Israel that he chose individuals to whom he will love or hate.

You're alluding to Jacob and Esau.. who represent not just individuals, but the nations of Israel and Edom. Paul however used this to illustrate God's justice in rejecting those who were naturally by descent Abraham's children. You see Paul was solving the problem of Israel in Romans 9-11 and the purposes and faithfulness of God to his Covenant.

Paul teaches that we were chosen before the foundation of the world to be his people.

If you evaluate Ephesians 1-3 you'll find it is about the inclusion of the Gentiles in the Covenant blessing and promises of God. I submit this to your reading.. something I have written before.

Introduction:

Ephesians 1-3 is a unit with one central message, that through the Messiah Jesus God has united a people from both Jews and Gentiles who have an equal share in every spiritual blessing, and also equal in regards to their need for grace. Throughout Ephesians 1-3 there are particular uses of pronouns that Paul uses that clues you into this train of thought.

Ephesians 1:

From v.3-11 Paul uses the language of us and we in regards to a single group, that Paul regards himself apart of, that being those in the Messiah Jesus. These people in the Messiah have an equal share to each of these blessings. These blessings are found also in the OT. God chose a people through Abraham, the nation of Israel to be Holy and blameless before him (Genesis 17:1; Deuteronomy 18:13; Leviticus 11:44-45). God has chosen this group "we" in v.4 before the foundation of the world in Him, the Messiah. He also predestined this group in the Messiah to adoption, this was also a gift given to the Israelites (Romans 9:4).

Also in him is the redemption and forgiveness of sins, this Greek word ἀπολύτρωσις (redemption) points back to the Exodus account which uses λυτρόω (redeem) for God's redeeming Israel from Egypt. It is now those who are in the Messiah who are those bought from slavery to be God's people in the promised land.

And Yahweh passed over before him, and he proclaimed, “Yahweh, Yahweh, God, who is compassionate and gracious, ⌊slow to anger⌋, and abounding with loyal love and faithfulness, 7*keeping loyal love to the thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and he does not leave utterly unpunished, punishing the guilt of fathers on sons and on sons of sons on third and fourth generations.” (Ex 34:6–7).

The "loyal love" discussed here that God keeps is his δικαιοσύνην (righteousness in the NT) which is his Covenant love, in this Covenant he forgives sinners, no out outside of this Covenant relationship with God has forgiveness. The Messiah inaugurates by his blood the New Covenant, which then sums up all the Covenant promises and blessings in Him, to be given to all those who belong to him (getting ahead of myself here).

Moving on with my point, in v.12 Paul refers to a separate group from those of the preceding verses (not all-together separate though). He refers to them as "we who hoped before in the Messiah should be for the praise of his glory." This we is referring to believing Jews, Romans 1:16 says, "to the Jew first and also to the Greek," the gospel first went to the Jews and they were the first to believe and THEN the gospel went to the Gentiles. This is also evidenced by the personal pronoun of "we" used in this verse establishing himself as one of the Believing Jews.

In v.13 he then shifts to talk about another group "you" a personal pronoun in the second person, it will become more and more clear that these "you" (plural) are the believing Gentiles. The Gentiles, when they heard and believed the word of truth, the gospel message, were sealed by the Holy Spirit in the Messiah. "Who is the down payment (ἀρραβών) of our inheritance," notice he uses the personal possessive pronoun "our" the possessive genitive here shows that we both Gentiles and Jews possess this inheritance which is the new heavens and new earth (Romans 4:13).

I could comment in details about the rest of Ephesians 1, but for the sake of time I will continue with Ephesians 2.

Ephesians 2:

And you, although you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit now working in the sons of disobedience,(Eph 2:1-2).

Here we continue to see the distinction in the pronouns used by Paul, here referring to the particular predicament of the Gentiles and their sinful rebellious state prior to grace.

among whom also we all formerly lived in the desires of our flesh, doing the will of the flesh and of the mind, and we were children of wrath by nature, as also the rest of them were. (Eph 2:3).

Paul then goes again to the "we" the Jewish believers and displayed that their position was just as deserving of wrath as the Gentiles.

v.4-5 illustrates that that while we both Jews and Gentiles where dead in our trespasses, God being rich in mercy and because of the great love with which he loved us saved us by grace. Making US alive TOGETHER in the Messiah. Paul's use of "us" and "together" here is not accidental, he is making a case not just for the fact that salvation is through grace, but how we Gentiles and those believing Jews have been united by grace in the Messiah to be equal sharers in the Covenant blessings and future inheritance, and neither were specifically deserving of such, but were given it by grace.

v.11-22 (sorry jumping ahead again for the sake of time) is the section now where Paul sums up this whole line of reasoning with just outright saying what this all means. We Gentiles though we once were alienated from the citizenship of Israel, the Covenant promises, not having hope and without God in the world. Have finally been brought near by the shed blood of the Messiah on the Cross, who broke down the dividing wall. The fence that kept us from God's family, v.15 by invalidating the law of commandments in ordinances, that is why he became a curse on the Cross for us! So that we have access to the Father, not through the Mosaic Law, but through one Spirit, where we don't worship in a temple, but we together ARE the temple of God. Thus fulfilling Jesus' saying about those worshiping in Spirit and truth.

Ephesians 3 and Conclusion:

What then is the Mystery of the Messiah, which was previously not made known to the sons of men, but now has been revealed? I'll let Paul answer.

that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, and fellow members of the body, and fellow sharers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, (Eph 3:6).

It was God's predetermined purpose to unite a people from all the nations of the earth through Abraham's seed, the Messiah of Israel. To be God's chosen people and to bring about his restored kingdom and man's restored dominion in the new heavens and new earth where men who have been conformed into the image of God's Son, who is the image of God will reign with him in peace and righteousness as God has always intended.

It's not about individual salvation, although that is there, it is about God uniting a people of both Jews and Gentiles in the Messiah Jesus to be his beloved possession in the world for the praise of his glorious grace.

The teaching of the potter and the clay is definitely a example of unconditional election. God being the potter molds some the clay (mankind) to be vessels to show his mercy and others to be vessels to show his wrath. These vessels represent individuals not corporations. What do you think?

Again, you fail to see the overall teaching of Romans 9, as the Potter and the clay is alluding to Jeremiah 18 where he says YOU ISRAEL ARE THE CLAY, and I am the Potter. He is making from Israel.. one lump.. two different vessels from which to accomplish his purposes. That purpose is of course to bring the Gentiles to salvation, into the Covenant people. Through the hardness of their unbelief, and through the Apostles (all Jews) proclamation of the gospel.

 

[Grappler]

You see this fits better with my view, as I realize that God elects individuals to be Covenant Representatives who he then brings a people forth from those individuals. The individuals who comprised Israel were then counted as apart of the Covenant people by their continued obedience to the Covenant as proven by the passages I cited above. This is incompatible with the Reformed view.

You're alluding to Jacob and Esau.. who represent not just individuals, but the nations of Israel and Edom. Paul however used this to illustrate God's justice in rejecting those who were naturally by descent Abraham's children. You see Paul was solving the problem of Israel in Romans 9-11 and the purposes and faithfulness of God to his Covenant.

If you evaluate Ephesians 1-3 you'll find it is about the inclusion of the Gentiles in the Covenant blessing and promises of God. I submit this to your reading.. something I have written before.

Introduction:

Ephesians 1-3 is a unit with one central message, that through the Messiah Jesus God has united a people from both Jews and Gentiles who have an equal share in every spiritual blessing, and also equal in regards to their need for grace. Throughout Ephesians 1-3 there are particular uses of pronouns that Paul uses that clues you into this train of thought.

Ephesians 1:

From v.3-11 Paul uses the language of us and we in regards to a single group, that Paul regards himself apart of, that being those in the Messiah Jesus. These people in the Messiah have an equal share to each of these blessings. These blessings are found also in the OT. God chose a people through Abraham, the nation of Israel to be Holy and blameless before him (Genesis 17:1; Deuteronomy 18:13; Leviticus 11:44-45). God has chosen this group "we" in v.4 before the foundation of the world in Him, the Messiah. He also predestined this group in the Messiah to adoption, this was also a gift given to the Israelites (Romans 9:4).

Also in him is the redemption and forgiveness of sins, this Greek word ἀπολύτρωσις (redemption) points back to the Exodus account which uses λυτρόω (redeem) for God's redeeming Israel from Egypt. It is now those who are in the Messiah who are those bought from slavery to be God's people in the promised land.

And Yahweh passed over before him, and he proclaimed, “Yahweh, Yahweh, God, who is compassionate and gracious, ⌊slow to anger⌋, and abounding with loyal love and faithfulness, 7*keeping loyal love to the thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and he does not leave utterly unpunished, punishing the guilt of fathers on sons and on sons of sons on third and fourth generations.” (Ex 34:6–7).

The "loyal love" discussed here that God keeps is his δικαιοσύνην (righteousness in the NT) which is his Covenant love, in this Covenant he forgives sinners, no out outside of this Covenant relationship with God has forgiveness. The Messiah inaugurates by his blood the New Covenant, which then sums up all the Covenant promises and blessings in Him, to be given to all those who belong to him (getting ahead of myself here).

Moving on with my point, in v.12 Paul refers to a separate group from those of the preceding verses (not all-together separate though). He refers to them as "we who hoped before in the Messiah should be for the praise of his glory." This we is referring to believing Jews, Romans 1:16 says, "to the Jew first and also to the Greek," the gospel first went to the Jews and they were the first to believe and THEN the gospel went to the Gentiles. This is also evidenced by the personal pronoun of "we" used in this verse establishing himself as one of the Believing Jews.

In v.13 he then shifts to talk about another group "you" a personal pronoun in the second person, it will become more and more clear that these "you" (plural) are the believing Gentiles. The Gentiles, when they heard and believed the word of truth, the gospel message, were sealed by the Holy Spirit in the Messiah. "Who is the down payment (ἀρραβών) of our inheritance," notice he uses the personal possessive pronoun "our" the possessive genitive here shows that we both Gentiles and Jews possess this inheritance which is the new heavens and new earth (Romans 4:13).

I could comment in details about the rest of Ephesians 1, but for the sake of time I will continue with Ephesians 2.

Ephesians 2:

And you, although you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit now working in the sons of disobedience,(Eph 2:1-2).

Here we continue to see the distinction in the pronouns used by Paul, here referring to the particular predicament of the Gentiles and their sinful rebellious state prior to grace.

among whom also we all formerly lived in the desires of our flesh, doing the will of the flesh and of the mind, and we were children of wrath by nature, as also the rest of them were. (Eph 2:3).

Paul then goes again to the "we" the Jewish believers and displayed that their position was just as deserving of wrath as the Gentiles.

v.4-5 illustrates that that while we both Jews and Gentiles where dead in our trespasses, God being rich in mercy and because of the great love with which he loved us saved us by grace. Making US alive TOGETHER in the Messiah. Paul's use of "us" and "together" here is not accidental, he is making a case not just for the fact that salvation is through grace, but how we Gentiles and those believing Jews have been united by grace in the Messiah to be equal sharers in the Covenant blessings and future inheritance, and neither were specifically deserving of such, but were given it by grace.

v.11-22 (sorry jumping ahead again for the sake of time) is the section now where Paul sums up this whole line of reasoning with just outright saying what this all means. We Gentiles though we once were alienated from the citizenship of Israel, the Covenant promises, not having hope and without God in the world. Have finally been brought near by the shed blood of the Messiah on the Cross, who broke down the dividing wall. The fence that kept us from God's family, v.15 by invalidating the law of commandments in ordinances, that is why he became a curse on the Cross for us! So that we have access to the Father, not through the Mosaic Law, but through one Spirit, where we don't worship in a temple, but we together ARE the temple of God. Thus fulfilling Jesus' saying about those worshiping in Spirit and truth.

Ephesians 3 and Conclusion:

What then is the Mystery of the Messiah, which was previously not made known to the sons of men, but now has been revealed? I'll let Paul answer.

that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, and fellow members of the body, and fellow sharers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, (Eph 3:6).

It was God's predetermined purpose to unite a people from all the nations of the earth through Abraham's seed, the Messiah of Israel. To be God's chosen people and to bring about his restored kingdom and man's restored dominion in the new heavens and new earth where men who have been conformed into the image of God's Son, who is the image of God will reign with him in peace and righteousness as God has always intended.

It's not about individual salvation, although that is there, it is about God uniting a people of both Jews and Gentiles in the Messiah Jesus to be his beloved possession in the world for the praise of his glorious grace.

The teaching of the potter and the clay is definitely a example of unconditional election. God being the potter molds some the clay (mankind) to be vessels to show his mercy and others to be vessels to show his wrath. These vessels represent individuals not corporations. What do you think?

Again, you fail to see the overall teaching of Romans 9, as the Potter and the clay is alluding to Jeremiah 18 where he says YOU ISRAEL ARE THE CLAY, and I am the Potter. He is making from Israel.. one lump.. two different vessels from which to accomplish his purposes. That purpose is of course to bring the Gentiles to salvation, into the Covenant people. Through the hardness of their unbelief, and through the Apostles (all Jews) proclamation of the gospel.

I guess i am missing your point. What is your point? Are you disagreeing with the God choosing to whom will receive salvation? Do you believe that individuals are predestined for salvation according to God's will?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I guess i am missing your point. What is your point? Are you disagreeing with the God choosing to whom will receive salvation? Do you believe that individuals are predestined for salvation according to God's will?

I think you've just not encountered this view before.. don't worry I'm not the only one who espouses it. I believe that Calvinism comes from an improper reading of certain key passages such as Romans 9 and Ephesians 1, as they were dealing with the issue related with the inclusion of the Gentiles into the people of God, and Romans 9 more specifically with the Justice and Faithfulness of God being called into question due to the rejection of National Israel.

I used to be a devout Calvinist and affirmed unconditional and individual election unto salvation, but rather saw that this doctrine which hinged on these texts actually had a better interpretation which began to destroy the arguments of Calvinism one by one. For if one part of the Calvinistic doctrine is proven to be false, the whole system collapses. If unconditional election of individuals is not true, then neither is Particular Redemption or Irresistible grace, or Divine Determinism.

 

[Grappler]

I guess i am missing your point. What is your point? Are you disagreeing with the God choosing to whom will receive salvation? Do you believe that individuals are predestined for salvation according to God's will?

I think you've just not encountered this view before.. don't worry I'm not the only one who espouses it. I believe that Calvinism comes from an improper reading of certain key passages such as Romans 9 and Ephesians 1, as they were dealing with the issue related with the inclusion of the Gentiles into the people of God, and Romans 9 more specifically with the Justice and Faithfulness of God being called into question due to the rejection of National Israel.

I used to be a devout Calvinist and affirmed unconditional and individual election unto salvation, but rather saw that this doctrine which hinged on these texts actually had a better interpretation which began to destroy the arguments of Calvinism one by one. For if one part of the Calvinistic doctrine is proven to be false, the whole system collapses. If unconditional election of individuals is not true, then neither is Particular Redemption or Irresistible grace, or Divine Determinism.

But you see i don't consider myself a Calvinist...though i have been labeled that. I just believe scripture. Jesus said "no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me DRAWS him to me..."John 6:44 As you can see the choice is God's not yours or mine. This is very simple to understand. This supports unconditional election...because no one can choose God unless God chooses him first.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

But you see i don't consider myself a Calvinist...though i have been labeled that. I just believe scripture. Jesus said "no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me DRAWS him to me..."John 6:44 As you can see the choice is God's not yours or mine. This is very simple to understand. This supports unconditional election...because no one can choose God unless God chooses him first.

You're proof texting here, there has been no analysis of the passage you cited, you merely quoted it assuming it informs the doctrine you are supporting and said it's simple to understand. This is not the proper way to perform exegesis.

We need to realize that the seemingly most powerful statements about election seem to come from John chapters 5-10 in which Jesus and the Jews who though outwardly claiming to follow God, it was evidenced that they were not true followers. To be brief, I believe these statements are that God will give and draw his faithful followers at that present time to Jesus. The destiny of these faithful followers of God at the time of Jesus, is assured, they will be raised on the last day. This raising the Jews would have recognized with pertaining to the final judgement and their vindication on that day.

“It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. John 6:45

Those who have heard and learned from the Father, come to the Son. We cannot divorce this from the current context of Jesus statement, and rush to apply this to ourselves. He was dealing with a particular issue where these Jews claimed to have heard and learned from the Father, yet it was clear that they hadn't because they were not coming to the Son.

This is a foreign concept for some, but through a thorough study of the gospel of John it is seen throughout.

 

[Grappler]

But you see i don't consider myself a Calvinist...though i have been labeled that. I just believe scripture. Jesus said "no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me DRAWS him to me..."John 6:44 As you can see the choice is God's not yours or mine. This is very simple to understand. This supports unconditional election...because no one can choose God unless God chooses him first.

You're proof texting here, there has been no analysis of the passage you cited, you merely quoted it assuming it informs the doctrine you are supporting and said it's simple to understand. This is not the proper way to perform exegesis.

We need to realize that the seemingly most powerful statements about election seem to come from John chapters 5-10 in which Jesus and the Jews who though outwardly claiming to follow God, it was evidenced that they were not true followers. To be brief, I believe these statements are that God will give and draw his faithful followers at that present time to Jesus. The destiny of these faithful followers of God at the time of Jesus, is assured, they will be raised on the last day. This raising the Jews would have recognized with pertaining to the final judgement and their vindication on that day.

“It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. John 6:45

Those who have heard and learned from the Father, come to the Son. We cannot divorce this from the current context of Jesus statement, and rush to apply this to ourselves. He was dealing with a particular issue where these Jews claimed to have heard and learned from the Father, yet it was clear that they hadn't because they were not coming to the Son.

This is a foreign concept for some, but through a thorough study of the gospel of John it is seen throughout.

You are making the same mistake that so many so called educated people make and taking simple scripture and making it complicated. It is not simple to you because it disagrees with your preconceived beliefs so therefore you must complicate it and make it fit with your personal beliefs. Are you not aware that Jesus spoke to simple uneducated people? Do you know that the disciples were not learned men? So forget your exegesis...you are being way to over analytical.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

You are making the same mistake that so many so called educated people make and taking simple scripture and making it complicated. It is not simple to you because it disagrees with your preconceived beliefs so therefore you must complicate it and make it fit with your personal beliefs. Are you not aware that Jesus spoke to simple uneducated people? Do you know that the disciples were not learned men? So forget your exegesis...you are being way to over analytical.

Ironically, most people didn't understand what Jesus was talking about when he spoke.

Your belief that this ought to be a simple interpretation is begging the question. Why must it be simple? There are concepts and types of literature and usage of the OT that we would not be familiar with. Yet when it would be used in the context of a purely Jewish community in the Second Temple Era, there are concepts that would stand out to them, that wouldn't stand out to us.

If you didn't have a conception of the idea of unconditional election unto salvation, then maybe your mind wouldn't automatically reference this as the interpretation. You see we each bring our presuppositions to the text, but they must be weighed through proper exegesis.

We need to consider that this text was intended first to be relevant to those present to Jesus' teaching after the feeding of the 5000. It was God's Word to them first, before it was God's Word to us.

In our current culture, reductionistic and simple concepts are praiseworthy.. practicality is prime. We cannot reduce Biblical teaching down to what is simple and practical and seemingly plain. Certain passages of Scripture require much work in interpreting such as apocalyptic literature found in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Zechariah, Revelation and so forth. If we just went with the literal interpretation or what seemed plain then we would get no where.

The same concept applies other places as well, we need to ask the right questions and understand the context of the passages and all of the historical questions in order to understand certain texts. Especially those found in the gospels, which took place in a culture radically different than our own.

 

[Grappler]

You are making the same mistake that so many so called educated people make and taking simple scripture and making it complicated. It is not simple to you because it disagrees with your preconceived beliefs so therefore you must complicate it and make it fit with your personal beliefs. Are you not aware that Jesus spoke to simple uneducated people? Do you know that the disciples were not learned men? So forget your exegesis...you are being way to over analytical.

Ironically, most people didn't understand what Jesus was talking about when he spoke.

Your belief that this ought to be a simple interpretation is begging the question. Why must it be simple? There are concepts and types of literature and usage of the OT that we would not be familiar with. Yet when it would be used in the context of a purely Jewish community in the Second Temple Era, there are concepts that would stand out to them, that wouldn't stand out to us.

If you didn't have a conception of the idea of unconditional election unto salvation, then maybe your mind wouldn't automatically reference this as the interpretation. You see we each bring our presuppositions to the text, but they must be weighed through proper exegesis.

We need to consider that this text was intended first to be relevant to those present to Jesus' teaching after the feeding of the 5000. It was God's Word to them first, before it was God's Word to us.

In our current culture, reductionistic and simple concepts are praiseworthy.. practicality is prime. We cannot reduce Biblical teaching down to what is simple and practical and seemingly plain. Certain passages of Scripture require much work in interpreting such as apocalyptic literature found in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Zechariah, Revelation and so forth. If we just went with the literal interpretation or what seemed plain then we would get no where.

The same concept applies other places as well, we need to ask the right questions and understand the context of the passages and all of the historical questions in order to understand certain texts. Especially those found in the gospels, which took place in a culture radically different than our own.

You "ramble" too much.lol You ask why does it have to be simple? I ask you why can't it be simple? So what you are saying is Jesus really didn't mean what he said....and you are going to explain to everyone what Jesus really meant.lol