Bible Study Correct Interpretation/s

[GodsGrace]

I don't know, but I appreaciate their showing up to lighten up.

Whadaya mean?
You saw Mighty Mouse around here?
And what happened to MY meatloaf?

 

[GodsGrace]

it is easy enough to quote - but tell us what is meant especially at 13:12 - twinc

TwinC

Post 22 at page 2.
That's where I explained the above, Mathew 13:10-13, especially Mathew 13:12

This will apply to "Whoever has will be given more"...

Jesus spoke in parables because He used familiar scenes that the persons of that day were familiar with.
His parables were easy to remember and people could read into them what Jesus wanted them to know.
He taught spiritual concepts by using everyday stories and objects.

Jesus taught about the truths, or secrets, of the Kingdom of God. Those that were truly interested in the Kingdom had to understand and strive to put into their daily life what Jesus taught. They had to think and inquire as to what Jesus meant if they felt they had understood. Not unlike us today. We come to know God but then we have to learn more about Him.

OTOH, to unbelievers, even what they have will be taken away because they do not care to see and their hearts become harder and harder. Jesus spoke in a hidden way so that His enemies could hold nothing against Him.
The Pharisees did not care to share their knowledge of God from people and wanted to keep God to themselves. They believed only they could please God by keeping every commandment. Jesus, instead, wanted to share the knowledge of God without upsetting the Pharisees. But, alas, in the end it happened anyway. He was a threat to them and had to be removed.

 

[GodsGrace]

it seems it is you that is a doubtful Christian that in and by me has not heard the Master's voice like some have - Jesus said my sheep hear my voice - btw just for your info and because you ask and insist on an answer I am now at 87 a cradle to now nearly grave Catholic - twinc

I know many born again Catholics TwinC.
I live in Catholiclandia.
Know where that is?

 

[th1b.taylor]

it seems it is you that is a doubtful Christian that in and by me has not heard the Master's voice like some have - Jesus said my sheep hear my voice - btw just for your info and because you ask and insist on an answer I am now at 87 a cradle to now nearly grave Catholic - twinc

And some in the Catholic Church, as with the Easter Orthodox and the various Protestant Faiths, are saved! They number less that 2% according to surveys of the catholic church in America during the eighties. Now if you are that much older than I, this is not the time to get all stupid on me so read that last sentence as it was written and not as you want to perceive it.

 

[Nathan]

CWB

I believe he just likes to speak in riddles.
I do wonder why.
Maybe one day we'll find out...

I've been away this weekend and I'm trying to catch up. This caught my eye.

I don't like to pass judgement on people. I can share a story.

A while back I ran into an individual that spoke in this kind of way. Quite irritating, but captivating also. Instead of letting reason and discernment take hold I fell for the speech.

I do not know if it was intentional, but once I agreed to be a 'follower' of sorts - I gave a strong indication that I wanted to learn from him - he miracoulsly started speaking plainly most of the time. Often it was only personal communication though.

I figure if Christ, Paul, Peter, John, and the others could speak plainly - I figure anyone of God can.

 

[Douglas Summers]

it is easy enough to quote - but tell us what is meant especially at 13:12 - twinc

Like the Lord said, "those who have ears will hear"....do you hear the Lord? Do you have faith in the Lord, are you seeking righteousness and humble enough to receive it? Or do you feel justified by your own knowledge and works, That you are right with God by your own understanding and that you understand the mystery of righteousness? If you did not understand the Scripture, you probably will not understand this. Those who seek will find an abundance, they are looking and listening. Those who feel they are as good as anyone else, will loose what they think they have, for the had nothing to begin with. The Scriptures explain itself (Matt. 13:13-15)

 

[twinc]

And some in the Catholic Church, as with the Easter Orthodox and the various Protestant Faiths, are saved! They number less that 2% according to surveys of the catholic church in America during the eighties. Now if you are that much older than I, this is not the time to get all stupid on me so read that last sentence as it was written and not as you want to perceive it.

alas and sadly you could be right about only 2% Christians get saved even though they are all Catholics only - so come home now - twinc

 

[twinc]

I know many born again Catholics TwinC.
I live in Catholiclandia.
Know where that is?

no where is it - India or S.Africa - btw I guess you also know many Charismatic Catholics - twinc

 

[twinc]

Like the Lord said, "those who have ears will hear"....do you hear the Lord? Do you have faith in the Lord, are you seeking righteousness and humble enough to receive it? Or do you feel justified by your own knowledge and works, That you are right with God by your own understanding and that you understand the mystery of righteousness? If you did not understand the Scripture, you probably will not understand this. Those who seek will find an abundance, they are looking and listening. Those who feel they are as good as anyone else, will loose what they think they have, for the had nothing to begin with. The Scriptures explain itself (Matt. 13:13-15)

you deviated and digressed and went off as most do on an endless merry go round and wild goose chase but did not explain how something could be taken away from nothing as at Matt.13:12 - you chose you jump in at 13-15 - twinc

 

[GodsGrace]

I've been away this weekend and I'm trying to catch up. This caught my eye.

I don't like to pass judgement on people. I can share a story.

A while back I ran into an individual that spoke in this kind of way. Quite irritating, but captivating also. Instead of letting reason and discernment take hold I fell for the speech.

I do not know if it was intentional, but once I agreed to be a 'follower' of sorts - I gave a strong indication that I wanted to learn from him - he miracoulsly started speaking plainly most of the time. Often it was only personal communication though.

I figure if Christ, Paul, Peter, John, and the others could speak plainly - I figure anyone of God can.

Maybe he just wants to make us think and come up with our own answers.
???

 

[GodsGrace]

alas and sadly you could be right about only 2% Christians get saved even though they are all Catholics only - so come home now - twinc

Twin
I refer you to the CCC paragraph no. 1271
and also 846 to 848.

As you must know, the RCC believes that those also outside of the RCC can also be saved by their faith in Jesus, but somehow, through some way which is not understood, everyone is saved through the universal, or catholic, church. Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salis is a very difficult doctrine to understand or get into.

Here's how I understand it and why the Catholic Church has had to change its position.
This is MY understanding of it:

When it was proclaimed by the universal or catholic church that no one outside of the church could be saved, there were no other churches at the time. So it was reasonable to say that one had to be IN the church and taught about God to be saved since it was necessary to believe that God exists, to believe in the Trinity, and to believe that God became man, died and was resurrected. How could one outside the church ever know this?

Into this we also have to add that there is only ONE Body of Christ. To which anyone who is baptized belongs (according to Catholic doctrine).

Add to this voluntary and involuntary doubt and the discussion could go on for pages.

To make it simple: Let's just say that whoever believes in Jesus as their Lord and Savior will be saved because it is not our doctrine that saves us, but indeed the person of Jesus as Christ.

Would you agree?

 

[GodsGrace]

no where is it - India or S.Africa - btw I guess you also know many Charismatic Catholics - twinc

LOL
No. I live in Italy. Know many Catholics of every type.
That's all there is around here!!
And many JW's.

 

[twinc]

Wondering - the Church is not and has not and cannot be wrong even though it cannot always clearly and simply explain why it is right - we believe what Christ and the bible etc say but we do not understand all simply and clearly - so also is the case for the Church - I have pondered this long and sadly as to what Christ really meant by 'ye must be born again as Catholic' - after all He is the saviour of the world and only Catholics are saved[extra Ecclesiam nulla salis] - this is why loving ones' enemies and one another as He loves us really makes sense

 

[GodsGrace]

Wondering - the Church is not and has not and cannot be wrong even though it cannot always clearly and simply explain why it is right - we believe what Christ and the bible etc say but we do not understand all simply and clearly - so also is the case for the Church - I have pondered this long and sadly as to what Christ really meant by 'ye must be born again as Catholic' - after all He is the saviour of the world and only Catholics are saved[extra Ecclesiam nulla salis] - this is why loving ones' enemies and one another as He loves us really makes sense

For some reason I fail to understand, not too much of this can be discussed here. I don't know why since Catholics are also Christian. We all feel we're right. Those who believe they can lose salvation and those who believe salvation cannot be lost debate all the time.

The only thing I will say is that it's not for us to say who is saved and who isn't. The Early Church Fathers said that we were to believe certain things to be saved. The creeds. All of them, including the Apostles Creed, basically say the same thing. If one believes the Creeds, one is saved. We cannot believe that God is Roman Catholic or Baptist or Lutheran or anything else. God is big and covers the entire earth and universe. He will not be put into a box. We shouldn't try to.

So what do the Creeds say:
I believe in God, the Father
I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord
He was born of the Holy Spirit
Born of the Virgin Mary
Was crucified, died and was buried
On the 3rd day He rose again from the dead
He is seated at the right hand of the Father
I believe in the Holy Spirit
The holy catholic (universal- there was no other church back then) and apostolic church
The forgiveness of sin
The resurrection of the body and life everlasting.

If our doctrine saves us, Twin, most of the earth is lost and God desires all to be saved.

 

[twinc]

your concluding remark says it all but goes unnoticed or understood - it says desires all to be saved and not that all are saved but only the little flock - twinc

 

[Nathan]

Maybe he just wants to make us think and come up with our own answers.
???

Close to it, but not it - otherwise, when the answer we arrive at is deemed 'wrong' there would be a true answer waiting. And, if it was not a right or wrong answer, then there would be no admonishment. It may just be personality - I just have great caution when talking with people who hide behind words.

Jhn 3:21
But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.

 

[GodsGrace]

your concluding remark says it all but goes unnoticed or understood - it says desires all to be saved and not that all are saved but only the little flock - twinc

Yes. But who is that little flock?
Could it be those that hear the shepherd's voice?
Ezekiel proclaims that God was mad at the shepherds of that time because they made the sheep scatter and did not take proper care of them.
Ezekiel 34:5

So God, Himself, will care for the sheep.
Ezekiel 34:11

We have all gone astray and must come back to the shepherd.
John 10:11 tells us that Jesus laid down His life for His sheep.
What must one do to be a sheep of Christ? He must HEAR the shepherd. If we hear the shepherd, we are indeed a sheep of Christ.
John 10:1-9 Jesus tells us to go through the door into the fold of the sheep. There is no other way to get into the fold because that person would be a robber.
But he who enters through the door is a shepherd to the sheep. The doorkeeper opens and the sheep hear the voice of the shepherd and know his voice.

So WHO or WHAT is the keeper of the door?
John 10:7 JESUS is the keeper of the door. HE is the door by which the sheep will go through.


Hebrews 13:20 tells us that God brought back from the dead the good Shepherd, through the BLOOD of the eternal covenant (the New and Eternal Covenant), through JESUS, OUR LORD. It is by Jesus that we are brought back from the dead, not through the church we attended while living.

Up above you said:
I have pondered this long and sadly as to what Christ really meant by 'ye must be born again as Catholic'
(your post no. 93)
Jesus never said you must be born again as Catholic. Please check this out. He said you must be born of water and of spirit. John 3:5

In Acts 16:30-31 the jailer of Paul asked what he must do to be saved.
Paul answered him: "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved."
He didn't mention any church. Only belief in the Lord.

1 John 1:1-5 is also very direct. John, who lived with Jesus for over 3 years, explains why he is writing his letter.
He mentions nothing of belonging to a church. It was written in about 90 AD so Christianity was already formed by then.

The little flock are those that love Jesus and desire to be with God.
God loves His Son and loves all who love Him.
God sees us through His son, not through a church.
The RCC no longer believes that one must be Catholic to be saved.
You could check this with your priest.

 

[reba]

closed for some clean up.

 

[reba]

This thread will not be reopened ... nor 'cleaned up' there would be nothing left.
This is the Bible Study forum... can we find a bit of respect for such?