Could God's plan for the lost be this simple?

[Alfred Persson]

The LORD produced me as the beginning of his way is the correct rendering of that Hebrew statement. It goes on to say-i was brought forth as with labor pains= created.

Incorrect, the antecedent of the pronouns "I" "ME" throughout this context is "Wisdom" who "as a master craftsman" was already with God "in the beginning. Therefore, "possessed" not created is the correct translation.

The idea God existed without Wisdom until He created it, is absurd.

How would God without wisdom, create wisdom?

Created is not in the context, everything says Wisdom was established before the beginning, was always with God. God "possessed" wisdom as a master craftsman:

12 "I, wisdom, dwell with prudence, And find out knowledge and discretion.
13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverse mouth I hate.
14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom; I am understanding, I have strength.
15 By me kings reign, And rulers decree justice.
16 By me princes rule, and nobles, All the judges of the earth.
17 I love those who love me, And those who seek me diligently will find me.
18 Riches and honor are with me, Enduring riches and righteousness.
19 My fruit is better than gold, yes, than fine gold, And my revenue than choice silver.
20 I traverse the way of righteousness, In the midst of the paths of justice,
21 That I may cause those who love me to inherit wealth, That I may fill their treasuries.
22 "The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.
23 I have been established from everlasting, From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I was brought forth;
26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, Or the primeval dust of the world.
27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 When He established the clouds above, When He strengthened the fountains of the deep,
29 When He assigned to the sea its limit, So that the waters would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him,
(Prov. 8:12-30 NKJ)

Then I [Wisdom] was beside Him as a master craftsman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him,


So the Watchtower twisted this scripture, making "master worker" different than the pronoun's antecedent "wisdom".

How long will you consent with their rebellion against God's Holy Word? How long will you stubbornly reject God's Holy Word for sake of your WatchTower idol?

For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. (1 Sam. 15:23 NKJ)

 

[keiw1]

Incorrect, the antecedent of the pronouns "I" "ME" throughout this context is "Wisdom" who "as a master craftsman" was already with God "in the beginning. Therefore, "possessed" not created is the correct translation.

The idea God existed without Wisdom until He created it, is absurd.

How would God without wisdom, create wisdom?

Created is not in the context, everything says Wisdom was established before the beginning, was always with God. God "possessed" wisdom as a master craftsman:

12 "I, wisdom, dwell with prudence, And find out knowledge and discretion.
13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverse mouth I hate.
14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom; I am understanding, I have strength.
15 By me kings reign, And rulers decree justice.
16 By me princes rule, and nobles, All the judges of the earth.
17 I love those who love me, And those who seek me diligently will find me.
18 Riches and honor are with me, Enduring riches and righteousness.
19 My fruit is better than gold, yes, than fine gold, And my revenue than choice silver.
20 I traverse the way of righteousness, In the midst of the paths of justice,
21 That I may cause those who love me to inherit wealth, That I may fill their treasuries.
22 "The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.
23 I have been established from everlasting, From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I was brought forth;
26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, Or the primeval dust of the world.
27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 When He established the clouds above, When He strengthened the fountains of the deep,
29 When He assigned to the sea its limit, So that the waters would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him,
(Prov. 8:12-30 NKJ)

Then I [Wisdom] was beside Him as a master craftsman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him,


So the Watchtower twisted this scripture, making "master worker" different than the pronoun's antecedent "wisdom".

How long will you consent with their rebellion against God's Holy Word? How long will you stubbornly reject God's Holy Word for sake of your WatchTower idol?

For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. (1 Sam. 15:23 NKJ)

Actually in Prov 8--i came to be by God as his master worker, the one whom he especially grew fond of=The one whom God created all other things through gets the title Gods master worker. Verse32 now oh sons of men listen to me--Jesus is the one God tells all to listen to. There is no doubt this is the being God sent= the speaker at prov 8--Its you who need to face reality and get out of the house divided(34,000 trinity religions) that will not stand-they teach darkness out of there altered translations, altered by satans will to mislead.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Actually in Prov 8--i came to be by God as his master worker, the one whom he especially grew fond of=The one whom God created all other things through gets the title Gods master worker. Verse32 now oh sons of men listen to me--Jesus is the one God tells all to listen to. There is no doubt this is the being God sent= the speaker at prov 8--Its you who need to face reality and get out of the house divided(34,000 trinity religions) that will not stand-they teach darkness out of there altered translations, altered by satans will to mislead.

I cited the Scripture, bold font identifies the pronouns, Wisdom AS A master craftsman is the subject. You insist God created wisdom, but the text itself says other wise:

12 "I, wisdom...

22 "The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.
23 I have been established from everlasting, From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I was brought forth;
26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, Or the primeval dust of the world.
27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 When He established the clouds above, When He strengthened the fountains of the deep,
29 When He assigned to the sea its limit, So that the waters would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in His inhabited world, And my delight was with the sons of men.
32 "Now therefore, listen to me, my children, For blessed are those who keep my ways.
33 Hear instruction and be wise, And do not disdain it.
34 Blessed is the man who listens to me, Watching daily at my gates, Waiting at the posts of my doors.
35 For whoever finds me finds life, And obtains favor from the LORD;
(Prov. 8:22-35 NKJ)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said,`He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.'"
16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
(Jn. 1:1-18 NKJ)

Like Sherlock Holmes ancient Christians saw John 1:1-18 as parallel to this. "In the Beginning" is when God created the very first thing, and the Word ALREADY WAS EXISTING. The verb eimi imperfect active indicative form of 2258 ἦν en means before the beginning of time itself, the Word like Wisdom is "from everlasting".

There never was a time the Father was without Wisdom or His only begotten Son, the Word. It is absurd to believe God existed at any time without Wisdom, without His Word.

Without Him nothing was made that was made, just like Wisdom was AS A masterworker.

And the early church saw how Wisdom was "brought forth," and the Word is God's Only Begotten Son.


And they correctly deduced as God never changes, this "generation of the Son" must be "from everlasting."

Eternal Generation, only begotten Son of the Father never changes:

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. (Heb. 13:8 NKJ)

Clearly Christ was not created, He is "from everlasting", in the beginning when God created (Gen. 1:1), the Word already was (Εν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος).

. The only way this proverb makes sense, is in the Orthodox concept of the One God in Three Persons, Father Son and Holy Spirit.

PS: Its telling your replies are becoming more chaotic, irrational and disjointed. On some level you suspect the WatchTower is horribly wrong, but stubbornly refuse to give up the idolatry of it.


I PRAY you repent before its too late.

As for me, I will rejoice in the LORD my Savior and speak only according to His Word, for in it is my heart's delight, and my spirit soars above the world:

13 The LORD of hosts, Him you shall hallow; Let Him be your fear, And let Him be your dread.
14 He will be as a sanctuary, But a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense To both the houses of Israel, As a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15 And many among them shall stumble; They shall fall and be broken, Be snared and taken."
16 Bind up the testimony, Seal the law among my disciples.
17 And I will wait on the LORD, Who hides His face from the house of Jacob; And I will hope in Him.
18 Here am I and the children whom the LORD has given me! We are for signs and wonders in Israel From the LORD of hosts, Who dwells in Mount Zion.

19 And when they say to you, "Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter," should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living?
20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
21 They will pass through it hard pressed and hungry; and it shall happen, when they are hungry, that they will be enraged and curse their king and their God, and look upward.
22 Then they will look to the earth, and see trouble and darkness, gloom of anguish; and they will be driven into darkness. (Isa. 8:13-22 NKJ)

 

[keiw1]

I cited the Scripture, bold font identifies the pronouns, Wisdom AS A master craftsman is the subject. You insist God created wisdom, but the text itself says other wise:

12 "I, wisdom...

22 "The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.
23 I have been established from everlasting, From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I was brought forth;
26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, Or the primeval dust of the world.
27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 When He established the clouds above, When He strengthened the fountains of the deep,
29 When He assigned to the sea its limit, So that the waters would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in His inhabited world, And my delight was with the sons of men.
32 "Now therefore, listen to me, my children, For blessed are those who keep my ways.
33 Hear instruction and be wise, And do not disdain it.
34 Blessed is the man who listens to me, Watching daily at my gates, Waiting at the posts of my doors.
35 For whoever finds me finds life, And obtains favor from the LORD;
(Prov. 8:22-35 NKJ)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
(Jn. 1:1-5 NKJ)

Like Sherlock Holmes ancient Christians saw John 1:1-3 as parallel to this. "In the Beginning" is when God created the very first thing, and the Word ALREADY WAS existing before that point. Therefore, like Wisdom, He is "from everlasting".

Without Him nothing was made that was made, just like Wisdom was AS A masterworker.

And the early church saw how Wisdom was "brought forth," and the Word is God's Only Begotten Son.


And they correctly deduced as God never changes, this "generation of the Son" must be "from everlasting."

Eternal Generation. The only way this proverb makes sense, is in the Orthodox concept of the One God in Three Persons, Father Son and Holy Spirit.

PS: Its telling your replies are becoming more chaotic, irrational and disjointed. On some level you suspect the WatchTower is horribly wrong, but stubbornly refuse to give up the idolatry of it.


I PRAY you repent before its too late.

As for me, I will rejoice in the LORD my Savior and speak only according to His Word, for in it is my heart's delight, and my spirit soars above the world:

13 The LORD of hosts, Him you shall hallow; Let Him be your fear, And let Him be your dread.
14 He will be as a sanctuary, But a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense To both the houses of Israel, As a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15 And many among them shall stumble; They shall fall and be broken, Be snared and taken."
16 Bind up the testimony, Seal the law among my disciples.
17 And I will wait on the LORD, Who hides His face from the house of Jacob; And I will hope in Him.
18 Here am I and the children whom the LORD has given me! We are for signs and wonders in Israel From the LORD of hosts, Who dwells in Mount Zion.

19 And when they say to you, "Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter," should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living?
20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
21 They will pass through it hard pressed and hungry; and it shall happen, when they are hungry, that they will be enraged and curse their king and their God, and look upward.
22 Then they will look to the earth, and see trouble and darkness, gloom of anguish; and they will be driven into darkness. (Isa. 8:13-22 NKJ)

Its proven fact out of Greek lexicon( trinity translating) your John 1:1 is not as shown by the Greek. A god small g in the last line is correct. Proving the rest is erred as well by catholicism translating to fit false council teachings. And it would also be fact that Catholicism was the first trinity religion, and they would be correct if any of them are. But their translating exposes them as false religion, yet you refuse to believe they altered translation to fit false council teachings. They are the tree trunk, 33,999 branches= A good tree produces good fruit, a rotten tree produced rotten fruit--like-a house divided( 34,000 trinity religions ) will not stand.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Its proven fact out of Greek lexicon( trinity translating) your John 1:1 is not as shown by the Greek. A god small g in the last line is correct. Proving the rest is erred as well by catholicism translating to fit false council teachings. And it would also be fact that Catholicism was the first trinity religion, and they would be correct if any of them are. But their translating exposes them as false religion, yet you refuse to believe they altered translation to fit false council teachings. They are the tree trunk, 33,999 branches= A good tree produces good fruit, a rotten tree produced rotten fruit--like-a house divided( 34,000 trinity religions ) will not stand.

Evidently the Watchtower has adapted Catholic apologetic to fit its needs. Yes, there are many denominations in the Church, but there is only One LORD Jesus Christ over them all.

God in His wisdom permitted the church diversify. Unlike the Titanic, which sunk all at once, Christendom will have pockets of the true faith remaining, even after the bulk of it falls away.

So what you see as a weakness, is actually its strength.

Compare to the monolithic Watchtower, which will soon collapse like a house of cards, Christianity stands on the cornerstone, on the foundation of Christ.

11 "This is the `stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.'
12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
(Acts 4:11-12 NKJ)

You can cry out to Jehovah the Father all you want, till you are blue in the face of death.

He will not answer you.

But just once, go to Jesus God the Eternal Son, and ask Him for Salvation. Honor the Son even as you honor the Father, and Jehovah The Son will answer, and in Him you will be blessed. Here is my testimony on that when I realized the Watchtower is wrong according to the scriptures:


Lots of time on ships to read. On one of them I happened upon the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ book “Evolution or Creation”. Convinced by its creationist arguments I decided to read their New World Translation of the Bible. The Word of God had a unique power over me, I was compelled to read it cover to cover and then again. I couldn’t put it down.

The time came when I was determined to become a JW. I was convinced they alone were God’s people, and everyone else belonged to “Babylon the Great.” I hastened to the San Pedro Kingdom Hall to be baptized. But they insisted I answer a question first, to see if I really understood JW beliefs.

“What do you believe about baptism”-the Elder asked. Immediately I paraphrased Romans 6:3-4 “We are buried with Christ, and we are raised with Christ!” That is the wrong answer, unless JWs believe you are one of the “144,000” anointed. They clearly did not believe I was because they insisted I complete discipleship indoctrination.

While at the public library researching I came upon “Apostles of Denial,” by Edmond C. Gruss. I was determined to prove his arguments against JW belief wrong. None of his arguments for the Deity of Christ were making sense to me. I blazed my way through his book, until I got where he argued the Holy Spirit must be a “Person” and not an impersonal force of God as JWs believe. He uses personal pronouns “I” “Me” and even commands the disciples to act for “Me”. When reading Acts 13:2 is was as if JW doctrines were like a house of cards, the collapse was truly great. I “knew” as the Holy Spirit says “I”, Me”, He is a “Person”:

As they were publicly ministering to Jehovah and fasting, the holy spirit said: “Of all persons set Barnabas and Saul apart for me for the work to which I have them.-Acts 13:2 New World Translation

I was devastated. I felt totally alone, “if the Jehovah’s Witnesses are not God’s people, who are?” [It didn’t occur to me the E. C. Gruss was!!!]

I cried out in prayer to Jehovah, “please help me, I beg you! I can’t see who your people are!”. I was absolutely devastated, went about as if in a stupor. But Jehovah would not answer me.

One day a Baptist Radio minister was urging listeners to call in and confess “Jesus Christ is LORD” and that God “raised Him from the dead” publicly (Mat. 10:32) and you will be saved. “God does not lie,” and He promised:

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Rom. 10:9 KJV)

I rushed to the public phone in the lobby of the Amory Hotel. A few of my fellow sailors sat there socializing, they would overhear every word I said on the phone!” Then a thought appeared: “You don’t want to embarrass yourself in front of them! You’ll be a laughingstock!” I drove the thought away thinking: “I want Jesus to be my LORD more than life itself!”

The Radio minister asked “do you confess Jesus Christ is LORD!” “Yes, I confess Jesus Christ is LORD!” “Do you believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead?” “Yes, I believe God raised Him from the dead!”
“Then you are saved, for God cannot lie and in Romans 10: 9-11 He says:

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. (Rom. 10:9-11 KJV)

I thanked him profusely and went to my room, stunned. As I was pondering these things I was “baptized in the Holy Spirit!”

About Me | End Time News

CHAP. XI.16—CONCERNING TEACHERS, APOSTLES, AND PROPHETS. Whosoever, therefore, cometh and teacheth you all these things that have been said before, receive him…But he shall not remain except one day; but if there be need, also the next; but if he remain three days, he is a false prophet. 6 And...

endtimenews.net

 

[keiw1]

Evidently the Watchtower has adapted Catholic apologetic to fit its needs. Yes, there are many denominations in the Church, but there is only One LORD Jesus Christ over them all.

God in His wisdom permitted the church diversify. Unlike the Titanic, which sunk all at once, Christendom will have pockets of the true faith remaining, even after the bulk of it falls away.

So what you see as a weakness, is actually its strength.

Compare to the monolithic Watchtower, which will soon collapse like a house of cards, Christianity stands on the cornerstone, on the foundation of Christ.

11 "This is the `stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.'
12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
(Acts 4:11-12 NKJ)

You can cry out to Jehovah the Father all you want, till you are blue in the face of death.

He will not answer you.

But just once, go to Jesus God the Eternal Son, and ask Him for Salvation. Honor the Son even as you honor the Father, and Jehovah The Son will answer, and in Him you will be blessed. Here is my testimony on that when I realized the Watchtower is wrong according to the scriptures:


Lots of time on ships to read. On one of them I happened upon the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ book “Evolution or Creation”. Convinced by its creationist arguments I decided to read their New World Translation of the Bible. The Word of God had a unique power over me, I was compelled to read it cover to cover and then again. I couldn’t put it down.

The time came when I was determined to become a JW. I was convinced they alone were God’s people, and everyone else belonged to “Babylon the Great.” I hastened to the San Pedro Kingdom Hall to be baptized. But they insisted I answer a question first, to see if I really understood JW beliefs.

“What do you believe about baptism”-the Elder asked. Immediately I paraphrased Romans 6:3-4 “We are buried with Christ, and we are raised with Christ!” That is the wrong answer, unless JWs believe you are one of the “144,000” anointed. They clearly did not believe I was because they insisted I complete discipleship indoctrination.

While at the public library researching I came upon “Apostles of Denial,” by Edmond C. Gruss. I was determined to prove his arguments against JW belief wrong. None of his arguments for the Deity of Christ were making sense to me. I blazed my way through his book, until I got where he argued the Holy Spirit must be a “Person” and not an impersonal force of God as JWs believe. He uses personal pronouns “I” “Me” and even commands the disciples to act for “Me”. When reading Acts 13:2 is was as if JW doctrines were like a house of cards, the collapse was truly great. I “knew” as the Holy Spirit says “I”, Me”, He is a “Person”:

As they were publicly ministering to Jehovah and fasting, the holy spirit said: “Of all persons set Barnabas and Saul apart for me for the work to which I have them.-Acts 13:2 New World Translation

I was devastated. I felt totally alone, “if the Jehovah’s Witnesses are not God’s people, who are?” [It didn’t occur to me the E. C. Gruss was!!!]

I cried out in prayer to Jehovah, “please help me, I beg you! I can’t see who your people are!”. I was absolutely devastated, went about as if in a stupor. But Jehovah would not answer me.

About Me | End Time News

CHAP. XI.16—CONCERNING TEACHERS, APOSTLES, AND PROPHETS. Whosoever, therefore, cometh and teacheth you all these things that have been said before, receive him…But he shall not remain except one day; but if there be need, also the next; but if he remain three days, he is a false prophet. 6 And...

endtimenews.net

1Cor 1:10--Unity of thought( all of Gods 1 truth) no division---proves you are wrong. No division is clear 1 single religion, unified in love, peace and unity of thought.

 

[Hopeful]

Yes, only Jesus after the fall in Eden.

Until His resurrection.
Now, thankfully, we all can live without sinning.
I was raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)

 

[Hopeful]

Every mortal on earth lives in the flesh, its a battle daily Paul said. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Most give into it.

If we can live in the flesh, we can live in the Spirit.
Choose carefully which one is right for you.
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
No fleshly mind, no vile affections, and no lusts...if you are Christ's.

 

[Hopeful]

Every mortal on earth lives in the flesh, its a battle daily Paul said. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Most give into it.

You should also read the verse in front of Gal 5:17.
Gal 5:16..."This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh."
The way to not walk in the flesh is to walk in the Spirit.
It is possible, or the apostle Paul wouldn't have written it.

 

[Alfred Persson]

1Cor 1:10--Unity of thought( all of Gods 1 truth) no division---proves you are wrong. No division is clear 1 single religion, unified in love, peace and unity of thought.

Back in the 70s, when I thought JWs were correct, I was witnessing to a communist labor organizer.

I recall how he said, with total envy and awe, how much he admired the Watchtower, how they had complete control over their workers. He was impressed and said: "If only we had that level of control we would rule the world."

Frankly, I didn't have a clue what to say in return. He admired the brainwashing, the total control over its salesforce. Back then, I thought such "footstep unity" was a good thing, but to hear it from a commie took me totally by surprise.

God hates tyranny, He wants His children free to think on their own.

If that weren't so, then He wouldn't have set up judges instead of kings, to guide the people in His law:

4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah,
5 and said to him, "Look, you are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now make us a king to judge us like all the nations."
6 But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, "Give us a king to judge us." So Samuel prayed to the LORD.
7 And the LORD said to Samuel, "Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them.
8 "According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt, even to this day-- with which they have forsaken Me and served other gods-- so they are doing to you also. (1 Sam. 8:4-8 NKJ)

God the Holy Spirit bears witness to our spirit, what is right and wrong through our bible trained conscience:

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs-- heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together....
Romans 9:1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, (Rom. 8:4-8; 9:1 NKJ)

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16-17 NKJ)

The tyranny of man, whether it be the Catholic Magisterium, Watchtower or alleged prophets of charismania---the so called kings of the earth, are not who the apostles of our LORD called us to obey. They demanded we Obey the Word of God, the Bible.

It is irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent this doesn't produce the uniformity evident in the uniformity of the bricks used to build the Tower of Babel---God's altar is built with unhewn stone, so man's idea of uniformity doesn't make it ugly:

as Moses the servant of Jehovah commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of unhewn stones, upon which no man had lifted up any iron: and they offered thereon burnt-offerings unto Jehovah, and sacrificed peace-offerings. (Jos. 8:31 ASV)

God is our King, to Him we must cleave:

Ye shall walk after Jehovah your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. (Deut. 13:4 ASV)


The unity the commie loved, that the Watchtower has instilled in its salesforce, is the same unity God rejected in the Tower of Babel when the earth was of one language, and all could be enslaved by the false god in the tower who spoke as if he were god in the clouds:

4 And they said, Come, let us build us a city, and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven, and let us make us a name; lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
5 And Jehovah came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
6 And Jehovah said, Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is what they begin to do: and now nothing will be withholden from them, which they purpose to do.
7 Come, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
8 So Jehovah scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off building the city.
9 Therefore was the name of it called Babel; because Jehovah did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did Jehovah scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
(Gen. 11:4-9 ASV)

They wanted unity under one name, imposed upon them by the idolatrous voice in the Tower speaking as a god in heaven.

That is the same kind of unity the Witnesses have, following the voice of the WatchTower as though it were God, and it is slavery.

A former JW wrote a book about it:

30 Years a Watchtower Slave, abridged ed. Paperback – Abridged, January 1, 2001​

by William J Schnell (Author)

 

[keiw1]

Until His resurrection.
Now, thankfully, we all can live without sinning.
I was raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)

You arent thinking clearly. All mortals sin.

 

[keiw1]

If we can live in the flesh, we can live in the Spirit.
Choose carefully which one is right for you.
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
No fleshly mind, no vile affections, and no lusts...if you are Christ's.

No matter how hard a mortal trys, they all fall short of the glory of God and sin.

 

[keiw1]

Back in the 70s, when I thought JWs were correct, I was witnessing to a communist labor organizer.

I recall how he said, with total envy and awe, how much he admired the Watchtower, how they had complete control over their workers. He was impressed and said: "If only we had that level of control we would rule the world."

Frankly, I didn't have a clue what to say in return. He admired the brainwashing, the total control over its salesforce. Back then, I thought such "footstep unity" was a good thing, but to hear it from a commie took me totally by surprise.

God hates tyranny, He wants His children free to think on their own.

If that weren't so, then He wouldn't have set up judges instead of kings, to guide the people in His law:

4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah,
5 and said to him, "Look, you are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now make us a king to judge us like all the nations."
6 But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, "Give us a king to judge us." So Samuel prayed to the LORD.
7 And the LORD said to Samuel, "Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them.
8 "According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt, even to this day-- with which they have forsaken Me and served other gods-- so they are doing to you also. (1 Sam. 8:4-8 NKJ)

God the Holy Spirit bears witness to our spirit, what is right and wrong through our bible trained conscience:

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs-- heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together....
Romans 9:1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, (Rom. 8:4-8; 9:1 NKJ)

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16-17 NKJ)

The tyranny of man, whether it be the Catholic Magisterium, Watchtower or alleged prophets of charismania---the so called kings of the earth, are not who the apostles of our LORD called us to obey. They demanded we Obey the Word of God, the Bible.

It is irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent this doesn't produce the uniformity evident in the uniformity of the bricks used to build the Tower of Babel---God's altar is built with unhewn stone, so man's idea of uniformity doesn't make it ugly:

as Moses the servant of Jehovah commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of unhewn stones, upon which no man had lifted up any iron: and they offered thereon burnt-offerings unto Jehovah, and sacrificed peace-offerings. (Jos. 8:31 ASV)

God is our King, to Him we must cleave:

Ye shall walk after Jehovah your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. (Deut. 13:4 ASV)


The unity the commie loved, that the Watchtower has instilled in its salesforce, is the same unity God rejected in the Tower of Babel when the earth was of one language, and all could be enslaved by the false god in the tower who spoke as if he were god in the clouds:

4 And they said, Come, let us build us a city, and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven, and let us make us a name; lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
5 And Jehovah came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
6 And Jehovah said, Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is what they begin to do: and now nothing will be withholden from them, which they purpose to do.
7 Come, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
8 So Jehovah scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off building the city.
9 Therefore was the name of it called Babel; because Jehovah did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did Jehovah scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
(Gen. 11:4-9 ASV)

They wanted unity under one name, imposed upon them by the idolatrous voice in the Tower speaking as a god in heaven.

That is the same kind of unity the Witnesses have, following the voice of the WatchTower as though it were God, and it is slavery.

A former JW wrote a book about it:

30 Years a Watchtower Slave, abridged ed. Paperback – Abridged, January 1, 2001​

by William J Schnell (Author)

Jesus is head of the congregation. I read many apostate writings. I didnt find one that didnt have lies in it.
Babel was the center of false religion. Every religion claiming to be christian claims to have holy spirit-- Only 1 does, the rest are the cause of confusion. Its not the holy spirit that is confused its dogmas taught in the schools of men. Those teachers are paid to teach that brand of dogma and little of what Jesus actually teaches.
The JW,s have the teachings of Jesus and true God worship history fact backing them. One cannot do any better than that. The rest have dogmas taught in the schools of men. They all get paid to teach that dogma. The ones taking the lead in the JW,s get no pay. They do it out of Love.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Jesus is head of the congregation. I read many apostate writings. I didnt find one that didnt have lies in it.
Babel was the center of false religion. Every religion claiming to be christian claims to have holy spirit-- Only 1 does, the rest are the cause of confusion. Its not the holy spirit that is confused its dogmas taught in the schools of men. Those teachers are paid to teach that brand of dogma and little of what Jesus actually teaches.
The JW,s have the teachings of Jesus and true God worship history fact backing them. One cannot do any better than that. The rest have dogmas taught in the schools of men. They all get paid to teach that dogma. The ones taking the lead in the JW,s get no pay. They do it out of Love.

That is absurd. So the True Church didn't exist in the days of the apostles, or until "the late 1870s"?

The group emerged from the Bible Student movement founded in the late 1870s by Charles Taze Russell, who also co-founded Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society in 1881 to organize and print the movement's publications.-Wikipedia

How absurd. Its novel doctrines appeared in the End Times because its one of the many false prophets telling us to "look, here is the Christ" in 1914:

"Then if anyone says to you,`Look, here is the Christ!' or`There!' do not believe it." (Matt. 24:23 NKJ)

26 "Therefore if they say to you,`Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or`Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.
27 "For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
28 "For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. (Matt. 24:26-28 NKJ)

When Christ appears its Armageddon time, and the dead bodies of the slain armies of the Beast will be food for the birds of heaven:

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,
18 "that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great."
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh. (Rev. 19:11-20:1 NKJ)

 

[keiw1]

That is absurd. So the True Church didn't exist in the days of the apostles, or until "the late 1870s"?

The group emerged from the Bible Student movement founded in the late 1870s by Charles Taze Russell, who also co-founded Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society in 1881 to organize and print the movement's publications.-Wikipedia

How absurd. Its novel doctrines appeared in the End Times because its one of the many false prophets telling us to "look, here is the Christ" in 1914:

"Then if anyone says to you,`Look, here is the Christ!' or`There!' do not believe it." (Matt. 24:23 NKJ)

26 "Therefore if they say to you,`Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or`Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.
27 "For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
28 "For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. (Matt. 24:26-28 NKJ)

When Christ appears its Armageddon time, and the dead bodies of the slain armies of the Beast will be food for the birds of heaven:

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,
18 "that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great."
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh. (Rev. 19:11-20:1 NKJ)

Yes in the days of the apostles the true religion was there, but then all but 1 of them was murdered( he died natural) and then the followers were being murdered, The religion was basically murdered. The religion out of Rome rose up= The great apostasy= the son of destruction( 2 Thess 2:3)--she was the tree trunk-33,999 branches off of her could not fix all the wrong she brought in. Truth came back here in these last days-Daniel 12:4)--A good tree produces good fruit- a rotten tree produces rotten fruit.
There is a foretold presence of Christ- Matt 24:37--1Cor 15:23--This occurred here at Rev 6 when he gets his crown.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Yes in the days of the apostles the true religion was there, but then all but 1 of them was murdered( he died natural) and then the followers were being murdered, The religion was basically murdered. The religion out of Rome rose up= The great apostasy= the son of destruction( 2 Thess 2:3)--she was the tree trunk-33,999 branches off of her could not fix all the wrong she brought in. Truth came back here in these last days-Daniel 12:4)--A good tree produces good fruit- a rotten tree produces rotten fruit.
There is a foretold presence of Christ- Matt 24:37--1Cor 15:23--This occurred here at Rev 6 when he gets his crown.

Even Charles Tze Russell knew the Bible did not teach Watchtower Doctrines:

Furthermore, not only do we find that people cannot see the divine plan in studying the Bible by itself, but we see, also, that if anyone lays the SCRIPTURE STUDIES aside, even after he has used them, after he has become familiar with them, after he has read them for ten years---if he then lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness.-The Watchtower, from Sept. 15, 1910


So blinded by Satan was CT Russell, he calls Bible teaching "darkness."

Hey! That's what you do too!

 

[Alfred Persson]

Even Charles Tze Russell knew the Bible did not teach Watchtower Doctrines:

Furthermore, not only do we find that people cannot see the divine plan in studying the Bible by itself, but we see, also, that if anyone lays the SCRIPTURE STUDIES aside, even after he has used them, after he has become familiar with them, after he has read them for ten years---if he then lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness.-The Watchtower, from Sept. 15, 1910


So blinded by Satan was CT Russell, he calls Bible teaching "darkness."

Hey! That's what you do too!

The appearance of the Jehovah's Witnesses in the End Times is a fulfillment of prophecy. They claim Christ entered the "inner rooms" and "returned" in 1914.

Christ warned us. He said you won't need a "spiritual eye" to see His return, because it will be like a lightning storm, every eye will see Him (Rev. 1:7):

Then if anyone says to you,`Look, here is the Christ!' or`There!' do not believe it." (Matt. 24:23 NKJ)

26 "Therefore if they say to you,`Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or`Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.
27 "For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
28 "For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. (Matt. 24:26-28 NKJ)

When Christ appears its Armageddon time, and the dead bodies of the slain armies of the Beast will be food for the birds of heaven:

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,
18 "that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great."
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh. (Rev. 19:11-20:1 NKJ)

 

[Hopeful]

You arent thinking clearly. All mortals sin.

Don't you think that being reborn of God's seed changes people? (1 John 3:9)
I will now live forever, so how is that mortal?
My vessel is the only thing that will change in the coming eons, and it cannot commit sin.

 

[Hopeful]

No matter how hard a mortal trys, they all fall short of the glory of God and sin.

You are right about the mortals, but I don't consider myself as one of those.
I have been allowed to kill that which was born of Adam's seed,...(Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. Rom 6:3-7)...
...and be reborn of God's seed. (1 John 3:9)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Yes in the days of the apostles the true religion was there, but then all but 1 of them was murdered( he died natural) and then the followers were being murdered, The religion was basically murdered. The religion out of Rome rose up= The great apostasy= the son of destruction( 2 Thess 2:3)--she was the tree trunk-33,999 branches off of her could not fix all the wrong she brought in. Truth came back here in these last days-Daniel 12:4)--A good tree produces good fruit- a rotten tree produces rotten fruit.
There is a foretold presence of Christ- Matt 24:37--1Cor 15:23--This occurred here at Rev 6 when he gets his crown.

Your theory contradicts reality. The NT is not a Catholic creation, the apostles wrote it. It is correct Roman Catholicism with its priests and popes and dogmas ARE NOT seen in the pages of the NT, but its equally correct Wathtowerism is not seen it it either. No one is selling Awake and Watchtower magazines, no one lives in "Bethel" where all sorts of sin and perversion occur in the darkness. You can read all about that from former residents.

Just as the NT seems to agree with some Catholic teaching but not all, so it is with the Watchtower. The NT so greatly disagrees with Catholicism they invented a pope and magisterium to keep Catholics in line. The Jehovah's Witnesses did the same thing, inventing the "Governing Body" all ruled by self-proclaimed class of "Anointed Ones" claiming to be of the 144,000.

The WatchTower's first pope Charles Taze Russell was clearly a fool, no doubt he regretted opening his mouth only to change feet very often. The following was a particularly brain dead thing to say, especially when you are trying to deceive people YOUR Teaching is what the Bible teaches:

"Furthermore, not only do we find that people cannot see the divine plan in studying the Bible by itself, but we see, also, that if anyone lays the SCRIPTURE STUDIES aside, even after he has used them, after he has become familiar with them, after he has read them for ten years---if he then lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness."-The Watchtower, from Sept. 15, 1910

"Pope Russell" was clearly depriving a village somewhere of an idiot. But he had the qualities necessary for real success in cultism--- rat like cunning, a plausible manner and a little literary ability.