Creation and Earth's Age

[Dorothy Mae]

Why does the lab exist?
The philosophy behind the idea of a lab.
Sorry that my English is too difficult to follow.
After all I am a Retired Mennonite Goat Farmer.

It’s best to start with respect when you talk with people whose background you don’t know.

Do you mean the philosophy of science?

 

[dwb001]

It’s best to start with respect when you talk with people whose background you don’t know.

Do you mean the philosophy of science?

Respect is earned not given cheaply.

Did I stutter? Was I not clear in my communication?

The philosophy behind the idea of a lab. Why do labs exist? What is their purpose?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So you are saying you have no idea why the lab idea exists in the first place because it is in a different building?

Huh?? I said the Philosophy department is usually in a different building. I took several lab courses and philosophy, religion, sociology, art and so on weren’t discussed. History was as far as it pertained to science.

Lame duck answer to an actual question.

The question is lame. But what do
you think the answer is?

And you need to learn some respect.

Maybe you just haven't thought about the question.

Maybe you don’t understand how science works.

 

[dwb001]

Huh?? I said the Philosophy department is usually in a different building. I took several lab courses and philosophy, religion, sociology, art and so on weren’t discussed. History was as far as it pertained to science.

The question is lame. But what do
you think the answer is?

And you need to learn some respect.

Maybe you don’t understand how science works.

Seeing as you are the "expert"... why do labs exist?
Or is your understanding of subjects just surface level?
Without philosophy science is worthless.
Science can point to how but never why... that is philosophy's job.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Respect is earned not given cheaply.

Did I stutter? Was I not clear in my communication?

The philosophy behind the idea of a lab. Why do labs exist? What is their purpose?
The question is not difficult. But for some people I guess it is.

The basic background in science is missing and so discussing this with you will be difficult. In addition, your posts are rude which is likely you making up for a lack of understanding the issue at hand. In short, I’m not convinced you know enough of either science or philosophy to discuss this matter. If you were willing to learn it might be different.

I am university educated in science and philosophy. Your questions reflect something different.

 

[Cooper]

The basic background in science is missing and so discussing this with you will be difficult. In addition, your posts are rude which is likely you making up for a lack of understanding the issue at hand. In short, I’m not convinced you know enough of either science or philosophy to discuss this matter. If you were willing to learn it might be different.

I am university educated in science and philosophy. Your questions reflect something different.

I admire your patience Dorothy.
.

 

[dwb001]

The basic background in science is missing and so discussing this with you will be difficult. In addition, your posts are rude which is likely you making up for a lack of understanding the issue at hand. In short, I’m not convinced you know enough of either science or philosophy to discuss this matter. If you were willing to learn it might be different.

I am university educated in science and philosophy. Your questions reflect something different.

But still no answer to my question of the purpose of a lab in "science".
Post your ideas and I will mine and lets see if a lab and nature are so different.

 

[miamited]

But still no answer to my question of the purpose of a lab in "science".
Post your ideas and I will mine and lets see if a lab and nature are so different.

Hi dwb001

The age of the universe is not ever going to be found in some laboratory. Why? Because it is a miracle of God and God's works have never been understood or identified through laboratory study. All you need to do to prove me wrong is tell me 'how' was the virgin birth was attained. Go into your laboratory of great science and answer me.

God bless,
Ted

 

[dwb001]

Hi dwb001

The age of the universe is not ever going to be found in some laboratory. Why? Because it is a miracle of God and God's works have never been understood or identified through laboratory study. All you need to do to prove me wrong is tell me 'how' was the virgin birth was attained. Go into your laboratory of great science and answer me.

God bless,
Ted

The lab question is about it's relation to nature and if the two are compatable.
And yes the age of the universe, or at least the Earth, can be narrowed down in a lab.
For instance if a diamond if several million years old... then there can not be any C14 in the sample... but C14 is found in old diamonds. Ergo the diamonds are less than a million years old.
If coal seams are 3-4 million years old then no C14 should be found... and yet it is there.
So a lab can narrow down the ages of the Earth...

 

[miamited]

Hi dwb001

While I appreciate the claim that you are promoting. It just isn't true. A laboratory has never been able to prove or disprove a miracle. It's really just that simple.
However, today we are taught that science can provide all of our answers as regards the beginning of life and matter in this realm. But the Scriptures warn those who are God's children to be careful about what we believe as regards this matter.a

Tell me, how does your lab report the parting of the sea that we read about in the Exodus? How does your lab answer that in one night every living first born child died in Egypt? Name any work that God has done that your lab is able to prove how or when it was done.

Similarly we can trust God's account of how we came to be...or scientific studies. I'm going with God. Just as I'm going with God's report of the parting of the great sea. Or that every first born child in all of Egypt actually died at the hands of God's angel. I'm going with God being the one who made the ax head float. However, I'm willing to listen to any explanation that your lab can produce that shows how an ax head floats.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Dorothy Mae]

But still no answer to my question of the purpose of a lab in "science".
Post your ideas and I will mine and lets see if a lab and nature are so different.

If we talk in theory, anything can be made to sound alike. But ten minutes in a forest and then ten minutes in a working lab will dissolve all the theories invented sans experience.

And that is exactly what a research lab does. It takes theories in people’s heads and tests them in the world outside of the thinking in the head. Does what we think match reality?

 

[eddif]

Of course that's how God created.
I meant about the Gap Theory and the age of the earth.

Do you believe the universe is 14 billion yrs old and the earth 4 billion?

I personally hear earth at the beginning of creation and the universe on day four.

The symbolism hides a lot.
We see through a glass darkly.

eddif

 

[GodsGrace]

I personally hear earth at the beginning of creation and the universe on day four.

The symbolism hides a lot.
We see through a glass darkly.

eddif

I don't believe the Genesis account is 24 hour periods.
It's told to teach us something.
It also has some science since it was inspired by God.
But it is not a science book, but instead the story of how God wants to relate to humans.

There's a lot of symbolism and myth...
Myth as in what it really means: Stories carried down from one generation to another.
I just don't think we know enough about the first persons except that God made them
and that something "broke" in their relationship.

 

[eddif]

I don't believe the Genesis account is 24 hour periods.
It's told to teach us something.
It also has some science since it was inspired by God.
But it is not a science book, but instead the story of how God wants to relate to humans.

There's a lot of symbolism and myth...
Myth as in what it really means: Stories carried down from one generation to another.
I just don't think we know enough about the first persons except that God made them
and that something "broke" in their relationship.

I have said more in the gap thread about age than here.
The first three days are not defined by time. Just periods of dark and light called a day. These days could be very long.

On day Four the solar / lunar clock was installed and then day five begins. Day five is a 24 hour day. Throughout the Bible time stands still and even gets reversed.

Joshua 10:13 kjv
13. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

Sounds like Romans 1:20 in action (science observation).

The something it tells us?
Galatians 4:4 kjv
4.But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5. To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

I tend to look at the gaps in time, but age / time does stop and eternity resumes.

Revelation 10:6 kjv
6. And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

When fire consumes creation time ceases.

Just a redneck
eddif

 

[dwb001]

If we talk in theory, anything can be made to sound alike. But ten minutes in a forest and then ten minutes in a working lab will dissolve all the theories invented sans experience.

And that is exactly what a research lab does. It takes theories in people’s heads and tests them in the world outside of the thinking in the head. Does what we think match reality?

So you are now agreeing with me that labs are a mirror of nature.
Thanks for changing your mind.

 

[dwb001]

I don't believe the Genesis account is 24 hour periods.
It's told to teach us something.
It also has some science since it was inspired by God.
But it is not a science book, but instead the story of how God wants to relate to humans.

There's a lot of symbolism and myth...
Myth as in what it really means: Stories carried down from one generation to another.
I just don't think we know enough about the first persons except that God made them
and that something "broke" in their relationship.

And by doing so... you are denying the work of Jesus on the Cross.
This is the logical outworking of all Old Earth theories.

If we have thorns in coal beds older than mankind... if we have cancer in dino bones that are older than mankind... then sin did not come into this world through Adam... death and disease was part of Gods good plan... therefore Jesus(as the second Adam) had nothing to be sacrificed for.

 

[dwb001]

Hi dwb001

While I appreciate the claim that you are promoting. It just isn't true. A laboratory has never been able to prove or disprove a miracle. It's really just that simple.
However, today we are taught that science can provide all of our answers as regards the beginning of life and matter in this realm. But the Scriptures warn those who are God's children to be careful about what we believe as regards this matter.a

Tell me, how does your lab report the parting of the sea that we read about in the Exodus? How does your lab answer that in one night every living first born child died in Egypt? Name any work that God has done that your lab is able to prove how or when it was done.

Similarly we can trust God's account of how we came to be...or scientific studies. I'm going with God. Just as I'm going with God's report of the parting of the great sea. Or that every first born child in all of Egypt actually died at the hands of God's angel. I'm going with God being the one who made the ax head float. However, I'm willing to listen to any explanation that your lab can produce that shows how an ax head floats.

God bless,
Ted

What lab are you talking about. Obviously you have misread the posts about a lab. I was talking about how a lab is a mirror of nature.

A lab could detect a miracle. If a miracle happened in a lab situation.
But the miracles you are talking about would fall under historical knowledge not laboratory knowledge.
I don't think that "science" has to prove everything... It can't prove history as history is not repeatable.

Eye witness testimony is what the Bible is filled with as a historical text... that is enough for me for almost every question I have.

So we agree completely... but your phrasing seems to point to you not believing that.
Or do I have that wrong?

 

[dwb001]

Hi dwb001

The age of the universe is not ever going to be found in some laboratory. Why? Because it is a miracle of God and God's works have never been understood or identified through laboratory study. All you need to do to prove me wrong is tell me 'how' was the virgin birth was attained. Go into your laboratory of great science and answer me.

God bless,
Ted

We don't find out the age of the Earth in a lab??? Then why are scientists trying?
I believe the virgin birth was attained by the working of the Holy Spirit... Well God was definitely involved.
We have eye witness testimony for that.
I wouldn't expect to find the age of the Earth in a lab... but limits can be placed on how old it could possibly be. So we can definitely say it was less than x but more than z years old.

 

[miamited]

I don't believe the Genesis account is 24 hour periods.

HI wondering,

Well, let's look at how the account is written and see if we can make any 'reasonable' determination. First of all, let's determine what defines a 'day'. A normal ordinary every day, day, as we live roughly every 24 hours, is determined by the rotation of the earth. There is no need for there to be a sun or moon in the heavens for the period, defined as a 'day', to pass as the earth spins upon its axis. A day is merely the time it takes for the planet to complete one full rotation as it travels around the sun. You can check this by researching the length of a day on any of the planets and how it is determined.

So let's put that into our equation. The earth, standing alone in the universe without even another star within the confines of the entire universe, would experience a 'day' as soon as the earth completed its first rotation upon its axis.

Then God further defines the day as encompassing 'one' evening and 'one' morning. Now, I don't know about you but I have a difficult time resolving that God's word says, in pretty much every translation that we have so it must be fairly accurate, that the day encompassed an 'evening' and a 'morning' and then try to wrap that time around a thousand or a million or any other number of days beyond the single. Once two days of any age had passed, God's word would become inaccurate to say that there was only 'evening' and 'morning'. God's word, to be accurate, would have to explain that "and there were evenings and mornings" until at some point God moves to describing day two. But He doesn't, and I believe that God is wiser than you or I could ever be.

Now, let's look at one of the days to see how it couldn't possibly mean some thousands or millions of years. On one of the days of God's creating this realm, He made plants. Now, I can take a plant and put it in the deepest darkest recesses of my basement and it will live fine over a 24 hour day period. But that same plant doesn't have a chance if I leave it there for a month with no sunlight to help its growth. So for the plants to be created on one roughly 24 hour day and go without sunlight for a day is certainly very, very possible. But for those same plants to be created on one 'millenial day' and to remain alive until the next 'millenial day' would actually be impossible as far as our understanding of how plants live

Finally, as I've tried to explain previously, this realm in which we live, a realm that includes everything that God claims to have created in the six day account, is a miraculous event of creating a realm in which mankind could live. God did that!!! There isn't any science that can explain the actions involved in a miraculous event. Science can't explain how the sea parted or the sun stood still in the sky, or a woman being pregnant, though never having sexual relations. I mean let's be real for just a moment can we? Since the dawn of time, so far as anyone knows, there has never been a fertilized ovum to become a human being that didn't have male sperm introduced into the ovum. It just takes the two parts, one coming from the woman and one coming from the man to create a human being. So, again, if your faith is so grounded in science, then why can't science tell you how Mary became pregnant?

So, trust your science all you care to, but I stand against such teaching, as do the Scriptures: Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living. "Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living."

You see, science is the study of the basic principles of this world. It's how science makes its conclusions. It studies an event or object, using the basic principles of how this world operates, to make a determination about its past. The Scriptures warn us of using that method to determine truth. "See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world, RATHER THAN ON CHRIST." That's what science is. It takes what already exists and, through study of the basic principles, makes some determinations about that event or object. But God has given us, I believe, a true and accurate explanation of how all of those stars and planets and asteroids and comets came to exist....God commanded and they became.
So for me, it's a simple operation that God completed in six rotations of the planet. On the sixth day of which He created mankind, of whom the first was named Adam. Adam even makes the claim that his wife Eve, would be the mother of all mankind. "Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living."

Then once Adam is created he lives 130 years and has a son named Seth. Now, I don't know about you, but that pretty much denies this understanding that the person 'Adam' is some typecast and not a real living person. But as we follow the generations, that God also included in His word so that we might know the truth about the creation, we find that it's really only been about 6,000 years since day 1 when God said, "Let there be light!"

So recap. It is my understanding that this realm, which is our universe, was really created in 6 rotations of the earth. It is my understanding that the amount of time that has passed in this realm of God's creating is about 6,000 years. It is my understanding that 'science' is just doing the best that they can with working out, through the basic principles (laws), how we got here. But they're wrong! And they have to be wrong because they only deal with the basic principles. They give no quarter to any event being a miracle and honestly have no way to 'test' how a miracle happens.

Science can't tell me 'how' the Red Sea parted that would allow for a multitude of people to just walk through a chasm of water on dry ground. Science can't tell me 'how' the sun stood in the sky over Israel for nearly a whole day. Science can't tell me how a virgin wound up pregnant. Why can't science tell me these things? Because science deals with the basic principles that govern the earth and creation. Anything that really is a miracle...science doesn't have a clue.

I'm sorry and I know that it's going to be tough for you to grasp, but I firmly believe that this discussion that we are having is exactly why Paul wrote this piece of Scripture warning those who are God's children to understand that explanations that are based on the basic philosophy (knowledge) of this world are not to be trusted by God's children. Now, what the rest of the lost world wants to believe? Well, that's likely going to be any explanation which removes God from the operation.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

I wouldn't expect to find the age of the Earth in a lab... but limits can be placed on how old it could possibly be. So we can definitely say it was less than x but more than z years old.

Hi dwb001

No, actually when it comes to the working of a miracle, science cannot determine an age. BTW you started to tell me how science has provided evidence for the virgin birth, but all you actually told me were that the Scriptures offer us verbal testimony to the fact. Can you provide me with the scientific data that you're all excited about, that explains how Mary became pregnant.

You see, I'm not arguing that Mary was pregnant. Just as I'm not arguing the existence of the universe. The question is the 'how' and 'when' these things happened. You say the Holy Spirit 'came' over Mary. Ok, but how does it work that some Spirit hovering over, imparts a fertilized fetus into the womb of Mary. If man's scientific studies are what you're going to put your trust in, in this matter, shouldn't you also have similar scientific studies to back up the rest of what you believe in the Scriptures?

God bless
Ted