Creation and Earth's Age

[dwb001]

Hi dwb001

No, actually when it comes to the working of a miracle, science cannot determine an age. BTW you started to tell me how science has provided evidence for the virgin birth, but all you actually told me were that the Scriptures offer us verbal testimony to the fact. Can you provide me with the scientific data that you're all excited about, that explains how Mary became pregnant.

You see, I'm not arguing that Mary was pregnant. Just as I'm not arguing the existence of the universe. The question is the 'how' and 'when' these things happened. You say the Holy Spirit 'came' over Mary. Ok, but how does it work that some Spirit hovering over, imparts a fertilized fetus into the womb of Mary. If man's scientific studies are what you're going to put your trust in, in this matter, shouldn't you also have similar scientific studies to back up the rest of what you believe in the Scriptures?

God bless
Ted

Who is saying that I am trusting in science for the basis of my faith?
Maybe ask a question about what I believe before amusing what I believe.
I think you came into the middle of a conversation that has been edited and made assumptions about peoples motivation.

What do you mean by "..actually when it comes to the working of a miracle, science cannot determine an age."?
If the decay rate of C14 would mean that a lump of C14 would have zero C14 after a million years... then the Earth would have to be less than 1 million years. Because we find C14 in "very old" rocks.
Similarly I am in my 50's... so I can testify that the Earth is older than 50 years.
So "science" can prove the Earth is between 50 and 1 million years old.
Therefore an age of the Earth can be bound by those dates at least.

 

[miamited]

We don't find out the age of the Earth in a lab??? Then why are scientists trying?

Simply because it's what scientists do. They're always seeking for answers to explain the reality around us. But that doesn't mean that they're right. Ever hear of GIGO? If you start with garbage, then the outcome will be garbage.

I realize that this is a major reversal of thinking for most people. But I fully believe that it's what the Scriptures teach.
'
That God created a realm in which mankind can live. He merely created it all. He just commanded and things became out of nothing. He then built that realm of His creating until it could support the life of mankind and then He created mankind. It didn't take God millions or billions of years to do all this. He merely spoke and things became immediately as they were designed by God to be. And it all happened roughly 6,000 years ago.

God bless
Ted

 

[dwb001]

Simply because it's what scientists do. They're always seeking for answers to explain the reality around us. But that doesn't mean that they're right. Ever hear of GIGO? If you start with garbage, then the outcome will be garbage.

I realize that this is a major reversal of thinking for most people. But I fully believe that it's what the Scriptures teach.
'
That God created a realm in which mankind can live. He merely created it all. He just commanded and things became out of nothing. He then built that realm of His creating until it could support the life of mankind and then He created mankind. It didn't take God millions or billions of years to do all this. He merely spoke and things became immediately as they were designed by God to be. And it all happened roughly 6,000 years ago.

God bless
Ted

I completely agree.

 

[miamited]

Hi dwb001

Who is saying that I am trusting in science for the basis of my faith?

Well, if I'm reading your posts correctly...you are. Hasn't this entire discussion been about your denying that the creation could have taken only 6 days and that it only happened about 6,000 years ago and that Adam was 130 years old when Seth was born, been based on your claim that science says that's not how it happened?

God bless.
Ted

 

[dwb001]

Hi dwb001



Well, if I'm reading your posts correctly...you are. Hasn't this entire discussion been about your denying that the creation could have taken only 6 days and that it only happened about 6,000 years ago and that Adam was 130 years old when Seth was born, been based on your claim that science says that's not how it happened?

God bless.
Ted

No I have never said that... in fact I believe it to be true.
I am a Young Earth believer and hold Genesis to be true eyewitness history... All of it.

 

[miamited]

HI dwb001

My sincere apologies. I guess I have reading comprehension issues. I'm glad to hear your affirmation of the truth of the Scriptures.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

And yes the age of the universe, or at least the Earth, can be narrowed down in a lab.

For instance if a diamond if several million years old..

Hi again dwb001

I'm sorry again, but your posts don't reflect what you say your faith is. You're saying that in determining the age of the earth a lab can 'at least the earth, can be narrowed down in a lab'.

Really? Have you found a lab yet that has 'narrowed' it down to what your last affirmation to me would require?

If you're words written to me of affirmation stand true, then you know that there aren't any million year old diamonds, either.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

So "science" can prove the Earth is between 50 and 1 million years old.

But according to your most recent affirmation to me, you know that such a claim is about 1 to 50 million years wrong. 6,000 is no where near 1 million in my understanding of age. So, I'm still flummoxed as to how you believe that scientific studies on this matter can 'narrow' down an age.

God bless,
Ted

 

[dwb001]

Hi again dwb001

I'm sorry again, but your posts don't reflect what you say your faith is. You're saying that in determining the age of the earth a lab can 'at least the earth, can be narrowed down in a lab'.

Really? Have you found a lab yet that has 'narrowed' it down to what your last affirmation to me would require?

If you're words written to me of affirmation stand true, then you know that there aren't any million year old diamonds, either.

God bless,
Ted

Geologists say the diamonds are the oldest rocks around... many million years old(their words).
Some geologists tested diamonds for C14 that shouldn't be there if their theories about millions of years is correct.
They found C14... therefore their theories were not correct.
Ergo the age of the Earth must be LESS than 1 million years.

Yes labs can narrow down age of the Earth... by testing objects that "science" says is old and finding that they are not that old. Validating the idea of a Young Earth. But these validations will mostly be written off as sampling errors.

 

[dwb001]

But according to your most recent affirmation to me, you know that such a claim is about 1 to 50 million years wrong. 6,000 is no where near 1 million in my understanding of age. So, I'm still flummoxed as to how you believe that scientific studies on this matter can 'narrow' down an age.

God bless,
Ted

Well 1 million years completely destroys the evolution theory.
I believe their claim of millions of years is wrong.
And honest science will also prove that many millions of years is wrong.
So we narrow the age of the Earth to LESS than 1 million and OVER 50 years.
And this is only one way that the Old Earth model is invalidated.
The regression of the Moon is another...
Number of supernova in the galaxy is another...
Evolution needs a 4 Billion year old universe... but observable nature places the date at less that 1 million(at least).

 

[eddif]

Well, let's look at how the account is written and see if we can make any 'reasonable' determination. First of all, let's determine what defines a 'day'. A normal ordinary every day, day, as we live roughly every 24 hours, is determined by the rotation of the earth. There is no need for there to be a sun or moon in the heavens for the period, defined as a 'day', to pass as the earth spins upon its axis.

Genesis 1:14 kjv
14. And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15. And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

A battle between any of us may not be good.

Rotation vs solar lunar clock. Others can judge.

eddif

 

[miamited]

Well 1 million years completely destroys the evolution theory.
I believe their claim of millions of years is wrong.
And honest science will also prove that many millions of years is wrong.
So we narrow the age of the Earth to LESS than 1 million and OVER 50 years.
And this is only one way that the Old Earth model is invalidated.
The regression of the Moon is another...
Number of supernova in the galaxy is another...
Evolution needs a 4 Billion year old universe... but observable nature places the date at less that 1 million(at least).

Absolutely!!! And Amen!

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Genesis 1:14 kjv
14. And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15. And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

A battle between any of us may not be good.

Rotation vs solar lunar clock. Others can judge.

eddif

Hi eddif

Exactly!!! The stars that we see scattered by the millions across the universe did not coalesce from wandering space debris floating about the universe. The entire expanse of the universe surrounding the newly formed earth was as black as black gets. Then God spoke each and every star and body of material within the universe to exist and it all popped up within less than the time it takes the earth to turn a full rotation. That is the power of the God that we serve. That is why it is written: The heavens declare the glory of God! When we look at the expanse of the heavens we are seeing the power and majesty and wisdom of this God who, who...loves us?

It is that same God who implanted in the womb of Mary an already fertilized ovum to attach to her uterine wall. Something that no lab or scientific process will ever be able to confirm or deny, other than to fall back on their standard response. "Well, this is how it works around us every day and so this account of a virgin birth is not to be trusted. We all know that Mary likely had an affair and tried to cover it up with this virgin birth story. Yeah right!

My challenge still stands. As long as science in all of its wisdom cannot answer 'how' any of the seemingly much more simple miraculous tasks occurred, then I'm not really inclined to believe that they have any of the answers as to 'how' the universe came to be. The creation of the universe, in this realm, is God's biggest miracle as far as scope and size. It all came to be by the command of God, but science can't except that.

Now please, let me explain that I am not anti-science. I just understand the limitations of science. Science is basically only good for working out how things happen in the here and now, after the initial creation. Yes, science tells us a lot about the world in which we live and a lot about how things in the world in which we live interact, but only in the recent past and present. For science to be valid, any theory must be repeatable based on the standards applied in the initial event. But today's science has no way of knowing what standards existed when the earth was created. It only 'assumes' that everything operates today, and all the variables today, are the same as it was however long ago the creation event happened. That's simply a false assumption on the part of science.

It was for His good purpose and design that the universe and all that is in it was created as nothing more than a place where mankind could live. Just as God, at some point in the past, also created the angelic realm and, we will likely find out, filled it with all manner of things that provide a place for the angel to live. This realm, is different than the angelic realm in that we aren't afforded the opportunity to stand before God as the angels can. We operate in a completely and wholly separate realm. But they are both realms of existence that our God has created for each one of our 'types' to live in.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I personally hear earth at the beginning of creation and the universe on day four.

The symbolism hides a lot.
We see through a glass darkly.

eddif

How do you say that when it says he made the universe or heavens first?

Science and the Bible agree on several points known.

1. The universe has a beginning.
2. The universe is older than earth.
3. The earth is older than the life forms in it.
4. The animals and plants are older than man.
5. Life forms are constructed by information, that is, a plan dictates how a life form is made and functions.
6. That information is coded onto or within a structure that itself has no other function.
7. Coded Information comes from an intelligent mind, except scientists as individuals will not admit this in reference to origins unless
a. They believe in God or
b. They are intellectually honest.

 

[eddif]

How do you say that when it says he made the universe or heavens first?

Science and the Bible agree on several points known.

1. The universe has a beginning.
2. The universe is older than earth.
3. The earth is older than the life forms in it.
4. The animals and plants are older than man.
5. Life forms are constructed by information, that is, a plan dictates how a life form is made and functions.
6. That information is coded onto or within a structure that itself has no other function.
7. Coded Information comes from an intelligent mind, except scientists as individuals will not admit this in reference to origins unless
a. They believe in God or
b. They are intellectually honest.

Post 22 by wondering asked the question
Was the universe 14 billion years old a the earth 4 billion years old).

In post 92 I answered wondering with (I read Genesis as saying earth is older than the universe). The sun, moon, stars appear on day 4.

Genesis speaks of the earth being void in the first day of creation. (Earth first)
Then on day 4 the sun moon and stars are placed to establish time (days years) and provide light.

I am going by the Genesis account and not by my speculation. That is why in post 92 I said I read.

If other scriptures absolutely counteract my understanding, I will look at them.

In Revelation 22:5 kjv
5. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

The very presence of the Godhead? Jesus? Gives Light. You do not need a candle or sun for light.
So at creation you do not need the sun for light. Nothing was made without Jesus. Jesus can emit light in the NT.

Come day four (God placed the sun and stars for light). I have no idea why, except the Godhead would return to the third heaven and leave symbols as the source of light.

I will listen to your 7 step order of creation scripture explanation. Please give scriptures.

Look I am a redneck from Mississippi. I do not have letters after my name announcing religious education. I read the Bible through dark sunshades.

eddif

 

[GodsGrace]

I have said more in the gap thread about age than here.
The first three days are not defined by time. Just periods of dark and light called a day. These days could be very long.

On day Four the solar / lunar clock was installed and then day five begins. Day five is a 24 hour day. Throughout the Bible time stands still and even gets reversed.

Joshua 10:13 kjv
13. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

Sounds like Romans 1:20 in action (science observation).

The something it tells us?
Galatians 4:4 kjv
4.But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5. To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

I tend to look at the gaps in time, but age / time does stop and eternity resumes.

Revelation 10:6 kjv
6. And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

When fire consumes creation time ceases.

Just a redneck
eddif

Of course Ed, the above is a purely biblical account.
We have some science that tells us how things began.
What do we do with that knowledge? Just throw it out and make believe it doesn't exist?

No one was present when the universe began.
Science has figured out a lot in the past 50 years...we could go through some of it if you want to.
You may be a Mississippi Redneck, but you're an intelligent fellow. I'm a mountain girl and I know that I have to keep myself updated and I know that the biblical account has to conform to the scientific account...or V V.

They do conform - but only if we don't take Genesis literally 100%.
I think God meant to inspire men to write about how the beginning happened...
He told them in a way they could understand...I don't think people from 4,000 years ago could have
understood about fine-tuning. But they did understand that the earth was prepared for them and that some things happened before other things and that man was the last to be placed on earth.

That alone is pretty amazing to me. I mean, that they got that right.
This is what it means to inspire something.

 

[GodsGrace]

How do you say that when it says he made the universe or heavens first?

Science and the Bible agree on several points known.

1. The universe has a beginning.
2. The universe is older than earth.
3. The earth is older than the life forms in it.
4. The animals and plants are older than man.
5. Life forms are constructed by information, that is, a plan dictates how a life form is made and functions.
6. That information is coded onto or within a structure that itself has no other function.
7. Coded Information comes from an intelligent mind, except scientists as individuals will not admit this in reference to origins unless
a. They believe in God or
b. They are intellectually honest.

Very informative post !

 

[GodsGrace]

And by doing so... you are denying the work of Jesus on the Cross.
This is the logical outworking of all Old Earth theories.

If we have thorns in coal beds older than mankind... if we have cancer in dino bones that are older than mankind... then sin did not come into this world through Adam... death and disease was part of Gods good plan... therefore Jesus(as the second Adam) had nothing to be sacrificed for.

Very good point.
Maybe Calvinists are right then?
Maybe God planned to put evil into the universe and also into man.

I prefer to believe that He didn't - at least from what I can glean from what Jesus taught us about Him.
And if Jesus cannot be relied upon, well then, poof - it's all over anyway.
1 Corinthians 15:17

The universe is chock full of good and evil.
Genesis is an attempt to explain HOW it got here....
or, at least, how it got into man.

Maybe there were beings living outside of the Garden and God wanted to create something special (us),
but, alas, we couldn't obey well enough AND maintain our free will.

Maybe God just wanted to begin a new race of people...

I think we should stick to the Genesis account and not wander too far from it...
However, I do believe that it is not a literal account. The snake represented evil.
I don't believe snakes could speak...OR, maybe they did in that particular case.

IOW, I think we should keep an open mind and not be too sure about anything that is not
specifically stated.

 

[eddif]

Of course Ed, the above is a purely biblical account.
We have some science that tells us how things began.
What do we do with that knowledge? Just throw it out and make believe it doesn't exist?

No one was present when the universe began.
Science has figured out a lot in the past 50 years...we could go through some of it if you want to.
You may be a Mississippi Redneck, but you're an intelligent fellow. I'm a mountain girl and I know that I have to keep myself updated and I know that the biblical account has to conform to the scientific account...or V V.

They do conform - but only if we don't take Genesis literally 100%.
I think God meant to inspire men to write about how the beginning happened...
He told them in a way they could understand...I don't think people from 4,000 years ago could have
understood about fine-tuning. But they did understand that the earth was prepared for them and that some things happened before other things and that man was the last to be placed on earth.

That alone is pretty amazing to me. I mean, that they got that right.
This is what it means to inspire something.

Science tells me the solar system is an expensive atomic clock. The 365 day clock of rears gon by was complex for its day.

The solar lunar clock is a worldwide accurate clock. Stone henge works as a receiver.

21 December was the shortest daylight of 2022.

We were discussing time on that day.

If days 1, 2, 3, were long then that fits too. I was not there in the flesh, but I really trust the Bible.

Another interesting sedimentary ages related fact. Three? ages of growth and extension would produce layers of evidence. The end age would view the record with gaps.

Hey what are folks without electricity going to do, but sit around and think.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

IOW, I think we should keep an open mind and not be too sure about anything that is not
specifically stated.

Daniel 12 may pretty much support that thought.

eddif