Day of the Lord

[Lehigh3]

No I didnt, didnt even know it was an article lol, Elijah posted blue words recently in a thread we were discussing and i clicked on them and they did nothing, I didnt even realize yours was an article heh.

Uh, ok. Well, my link works, I just checked. Take your time. I will look for your response to the article tomorrow-

 

[n2thelight]

At what point in time could believer's go straight to God,in Jesus name,without needing a Priest?

What point in time did the New Covenant begin?

 

[Lehigh3]

At what point in time could believer's go straight to God,in Jesus name,without needing a Priest?

I don't know what that means. Wait, I do know- we don't need a priest- we can go directly to God (Jesus) period. That's a Catholic thing anyway.
I do know when believers went straight to heaven when they died & didn't have to wait in Sheol any longer. That would be AD70 when the dead rose first from Hades. Then we meet the rest in heaven when we die.

What point in time did the New Covenant begin?

God was making "a new covenant with the house of Israel" (Jer.31) through the Messiah. So the new covenant began with the beginning of Christ's ministry on earth. It was consummated when the kingdom came in power. (Rev. 11) in AD70.

 

[Vic C.]

So now we are taking 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and placing it in 70 AD and are expecting we followers of Christ to believe and accept such an interpretation? :o

In the words of Jerry Seinfeld, "I don't think so".

If I am reading the 1 Thessalonians passage correctly (which I believe I am) and I follow your method of interpretation (which I wouldn't) your interpretation leaves no hope for anyone who has lived and died post 70AD.

That's sad. Therein lies the danger of full preterism.

 

[Sinthesis]

So now we are taking 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and placing it in 70 AD and are expecting we followers of Christ to believe and accept such an interpretation? :o

In the words of Jerry Seinfeld, "I don't think so".

If I am reading the 1 Thessalonians passage correctly (which I believe I am) and I follow your method of interpretation (which I wouldn't) your interpretation leaves no hope for anyone who has lived and died post 70AD.

That's sad. Therein lies the danger of full preterism.

I see the change in the after-death path of the righteous that 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 describes as only beginning at Rosh Hashanah 70AD +-.

I am in no way a full preterist, and I don't know what they believe on the matter.

 

[Vic C.]

I see the change in the after-death path of the righteous that 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 describes as only beginning at Yom Kippur 70AD +-.

I am in no way a full preterist, and I don't know what they believe on the matter.

I responded the way I did because I see many Days of the Lord in scripture, but I don't see 70AD as the finale. It just doesn't fit Peter's description. :yes We must also remember that the resurrection and gathering of the dead and living is a Jewish concept.

The Last Trump

 

[reba]

I see many days of The Lord but only one last day.

 

[Stormcrow]

I don't see 70AD as the finale.

Finale for whom? Who was the focus of Christ's earthly ministry?

 

[Stormcrow]

So now we are taking 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and placing it in 70 AD and are expecting we followers of Christ to believe and accept such an interpretation? :o

I have come to believe - through my reading of the New Testament - that we need to try to understand all of it through the perspective of:

1. Men who were facing intense persecution, first from Jerusalem and later from Rome;
2. Men who fully expected Christ to return in their lifetime, as they were led to believe by Christ Himself.

I don't think we can ever fully understand what the apostles were writing to the churches they planted, but I firmly believe that any attempt at understanding them needs to begin with these two premises.

Fow what it's worth.

 

[Lehigh3]

I have come to believe - through my reading of the New Testament - that we need to try to understand all of it through the perspective of:

1. Men who were facing intense persecution, first from Jerusalem and later from Rome;
2. Men who fully expected Christ to return in their lifetime, as they were led to believe by Christ Himself.

I don't think we can ever fully understand what the apostles were writing to the churches they planted, but I firmly believe that any attempt at understanding them needs to begin with these two premises.

Fow what it's worth.

Agreed.
I have found that interpreting Biblical eschatological prophecies requires us to regard the "audience relevance."

If prophecies weren't fulfilled in a reasonable time - as per Deut.18:21- they weren't from the Lord. With that requirement alone- there is absolutely no reason to suggest any "double fulfillment" or such- thousands of years later in the middle of the Lord's discourse.
It's a major error that the church must come to terms with & correct, imho when it comes to eschatological references.

 

[Lehigh3]

So now we are taking 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and placing it in 70 AD and are expecting we followers of Christ to believe and accept such an interpretation? :o

In the words of Jerry Seinfeld, "I don't think so".

If I am reading the 1 Thessalonians passage correctly (which I believe I am) and I follow your method of interpretation (which I wouldn't) your interpretation leaves no hope for anyone who has lived and died post 70AD.

That's sad. Therein lies the danger of full preterism.

Nah, it's happy, not sad. And we are safe & not in danger- if we have faith! ;)

Maybe the reason you think no one lives & dies past AD70, according to 1Thess.4:16-17 is bc, like many, misunderstand what Paul said.

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then
we which are alive and remain (when we die as they did) shall be caught up together with them in the clouds (to the heavenly home) to meet the Lord in the air.......(Emph. mine)
Paul's language has long been associated with the notion of an instantaneous rapture of the saved to heaven at world's end!

The better view is is that the Paul's language is purely accommodating. The "rapture" language is more spiritual than physical & speaks in part to the victory the church would share in following the persecution & destruction of its enemies.
Paul suggests this when he says "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be glorified together." (Rom.8:17)

Also, the Resurrection was tied up in the end time of Israel. All eschatological expectation was linked to this hope: "Unto to which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God night and day hope to come." (Acts.26:6-8; 23:6; 24:21)
We see the resurrection of the dead AND the rewards for to the servants & prophets (dead or alive) at the 7th & last trump. (Rev.11:18) This is the same time as God's wrath (the great tribulation on the Jews)

Paul's expressions in 1 Thess. 4:16-18 cannot be separated in time from 1Thess.5, where he continues on to describe the "Day of the Lord" & the safety of those not in darkness.

It's all the same "Day of the Lord." The Kingdom was proclaimed to have come with power in Rev.11:15 when the 7th trumpet was blown.

Christ's enemies were now put down & the church shares in the victory, where its given "power over the nations" to rule them with a rod of iron." (Rev.2:26-27)

This was the beginning of an epoch. For the living it was a spiritual reality to be seated with Christ in heavenly places. There is no more death after death for us.

It was appointed for man to die once (like Christ did) then their fate.


Now, do I need to post the typology of the Feasts of the Lord for extra confirmation in AD70?
I don't think I need to.

 

[n2thelight]

Nah, it's happy, not sad. And we are safe & not in danger- if we have faith! ;)

Maybe the reason you think no one lives & dies past AD70, according to 1Thess.4:16-17 is bc, like many, misunderstand what Paul said.

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then
we which are alive and remain (when we die as they did) shall be caught up together with them in the clouds (to the heavenly home) to meet the Lord in the air.......(Emph. mine)
Paul's language has long been associated with the notion of an instantaneous rapture of the saved to heaven at world's end!

The better view is is that the Paul's language is purely accommodating. The "rapture" language is more spiritual than physical & speaks in part to the victory the church would share in following the persecution & destruction of its enemies.
Paul suggests this when he says "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be glorified together." (Rom.8:17)

Also, the Resurrection was tied up in the end time of Israel. All eschatological expectation was linked to this hope: "Unto to which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God night and day hope to come." (Acts.26:6-8; 23:6; 24:21)
We see the resurrection of the dead AND the rewards for to the servants & prophets (dead or alive) at the 7th & last trump. (Rev.11:18) This is the same time as God's wrath (the great tribulation on the Jews)

Paul's expressions in 1 Thess. 4:16-18 cannot be separated in time from 1Thess.5, where he continues on to describe the "Day of the Lord" & the safety of those not in darkness.

It's all the same "Day of the Lord." The Kingdom was proclaimed to have come with power in Rev.11:15 when the 7th trumpet was blown.

Christ's enemies were now put down & the church shares in the victory, where its given "power over the nations" to rule them with a rod of iron." (Rev.2:26-27)

This was the beginning of an epoch. For the living it was a spiritual reality to be seated with Christ in heavenly places. There is no more death after death for us.

It was appointed for man to die once (like Christ did) then their fate.


Now, do I need to post the typology of the Feasts of the Lord for extra confirmation in AD70?
I don't think I need to.

So why are Christians still to this day being persecuted?Had Christ returned this would not be happening....

It was appointed men to die once meaning physical,yet Paul also said that we would not all sleep(die)but we would all be changed,when?At the 7th trump,so if the 7th has sounded,why are you not changed?

 

[Sinthesis]

So why are Christians still to this day being persecuted?Had Christ returned this would not be happening....

It was appointed men to die once meaning physical,yet Paul also said that we would not all sleep(die)but we would all be changed,when?At the 7th trump,so if the 7th has sounded,why are you not changed?

What kind of change are you looking for exactly?

 

[n2thelight]

What kind of change are you looking for exactly?

The same one Paul spoke about.........

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

All people living in their flesh bodies will be changed instantly from their flesh bodies, into their new incorruptible bodies.

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Paul is telling us that this change will come "at the last trump", and that is when there are no more trumps. He identifies that trumpet as the seventh trumpet, and we know that this is the very moment when Jesus Christ comes back to earth to establish His Millennium kingdom, right here on earth. We are talking about God's trumpets here and on the sixth trumpet Satan comes to earth to deceive the whole world.

Everyone is going to enter into the only dimension whereby any soul can be judged. This change from the flesh body into your new spiritual or incorruptible has nothing to do with the condition of your soul. If you were lost before, you still will be lost, and if you have received Jesus Christ and are under His shed blood, you will be in that same spiritual condition. What is happening is at the sounding of the seventh which is the last trumpet all flesh will be done away with, and all souls will now exist in their spiritual bodies.

I Corinthians 15:53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

Through this entire chapter Paul has brought to our attention that we have two bodies within each of us. We have our physical body, which is made up of flesh and blood, and we have our spiritual body which is called our soul. The flesh body will die at some point in time and the spiritual body or soul body that houses or spirit will live on after death. "Mortal must put on immortality" applies only to the soul, for all flesh will be gone at death, or at the sounding of the seventh trumpet. So immortality applies only to the soul body, and even in the incorruptible body the sting of death of that soul is still on it if that soul has not received eternal life.

Study written by Roger Christopherson

Again,had the 7th trump sounded,we would not now be in flesh bodies...............Period

 

[Sinthesis]

So immortality applies only to the soul body, and even in the incorruptible body the sting of death of that soul is still on it if that soul has not received eternal life.

Can you explain away the contradiction in the above statement?

 

[n2thelight]

Can you explain away the contradiction in the above statement?

No contradiction at all

Our flesh bodies are not immortal,it will die or be changed at the 7th trump,whichever comes first....

Now the soul must become immortal and that happens automatically to those whom are in Christ,however those who are not in Christ,when they die or are changed their soul is not immortal,as it still has a chance to die the second death,which is the death of the soul........

Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

The second death has no power because they were in Christ and their soul has become immortal....

Revelation 20:12"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

These people are called the dead because their soul has not put on immortality,meaning they can still die the second death....

So immortality only applies to the soul body,for the simple fact that all flesh shall either die or be changed but even though you are changed dosn't automatically mean your soul is immortal....

 

[Sinthesis]

No contradiction at all

Our flesh bodies are not immortal,it will die or be changed at the 7th trump,whichever comes first....

Now the soul must become immortal and that happens automatically to those whom are in Christ,however those who are not in Christ,when they die or are changed their soul is not immortal,as it still has a chance to die the second death,which is the death of the soul........

Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

The second death has no power because they were in Christ and their soul has become immortal....

Revelation 20:12"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

These people are called the dead because their soul has not put on immortality,meaning they can still die the second death....

So immortality only applies to the soul body,for the simple fact that all flesh shall either die or be changed but even though you are changed dosn't automatically mean your soul is immortal....

So then the incorruptible soul bodies of the unsaved aren't exactly incorruptible.

 

[n2thelight]

So then the incorruptible soul bodies of the unsaved aren't exactly incorruptible.

Yes they are, meaning they don't get sick or age like that of the flesh.....

 

[Stormcrow]

So why are Christians still to this day being persecuted?Had Christ returned this would not be happening....

Please provide chapter and verse for that statement.

And while you're looking for that, here's what Christ really said:

{33} "These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world." John 16:33 (NASB)

{9} "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. Matthew 24:9 (NASB)

 

[n2thelight]

Please provide chapter and verse for that statement.

And while you're looking for that, here's what Christ really said:

{33} "These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world." John 16:33 (NASB)

{9} "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. Matthew 24:9 (NASB)

Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

The end of what?