Did Adam and Eve really exist?

[Ed the Ned]

I am busy reading a book by John MacArthur called the battle for the beginning and it has helped me understand a few things, but it is different for everyone in their understanding of how we came to be,for me creation as written in the Bible is the only way I can accept it. Iagree with whirlwind, that sometimes even if you don't understand something you just need to accept it and then move on. I must agree that the problem does exist when secular education view evolution as fact, which I do not,and I have to explain to my child why my views are different. Its a lot easier for the person who believes in evolution as they fit in with 90% of the worlds view on how we came to be. Adam and Eve were created as written in the Bible, I cannot believe otherwise.

 

[Orion]

I am busy reading a book by John MacArthur called the battle for the beginning and it has helped me understand a few things, but it is different for everyone in their understanding of how we came to be,for me creation as written in the Bible is the only way I can accept it. Iagree with whirlwind, that sometimes even if you don't understand something you just need to accept it and then move on. I must agree that the problem does exist when secular education view evolution as fact, which I do not,and I have to explain to my child why my views are different. Its a lot easier for the person who believes in evolution as they fit in with 90% of the worlds view on how we came to be. Adam and Eve were created as written in the Bible, I cannot believe otherwise.

First, I must disagree that "90% of the world believes in evolution", but that's a different topic.

What I want to hit on is when you quoted and agreed with whirlwind, "that sometimes even if you don't understand something you just need to accept it and then move on", if it contradicts simple evidence, then there is no way I can just "accept it and move on", . . . not and be truthful. I would be lying to myself, and anyone else I told the story to. However, you are free to accept whatever dogma you want. That's the freedom of our great United States.

 

[whirlwind]

I am busy reading a book by John MacArthur called the battle for the beginning and it has helped me understand a few things, but it is different for everyone in their understanding of how we came to be,for me creation as written in the Bible is the only way I can accept it. Iagree with whirlwind, that sometimes even if you don't understand something you just need to accept it and then move on. I must agree that the problem does exist when secular education view evolution as fact, which I do not,and I have to explain to my child why my views are different. Its a lot easier for the person who believes in evolution as they fit in with 90% of the worlds view on how we came to be. Adam and Eve were created as written in the Bible, I cannot believe otherwise.

First, I must disagree that "90% of the world believes in evolution", but that's a different topic.

What I want to hit on is when you quoted and agreed with whirlwind, "that sometimes even if you don't understand something you just need to accept it and then move on", if it contradicts simple evidence, then there is no way I can just "accept it and move on", . . . not and be truthful. I would be lying to myself, and anyone else I told the story to. However, you are free to accept whatever dogma you want. That's the freedom of our great United States.

To me, it isn't that you "accept it," but you mature and realize it isn't for us to know everything at one time but, I again say...the answers are there. They are written. You should not lie to yourself but ask Him for understanding. He knows when we are ready....

• Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
  
  John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

 

[Orion]

There's no "maturity" in believing that which can't be proven and is inconsistent with evidence. :gah

There are no "answers" there, only dogma.

 

[whirlwind]

There's no "maturity" in believing that which can't be proven and is inconsistent with evidence. :gah

There are no "answers" there, only dogma.

At present you are being purposefully "dull of hearing." :yes Ask Him to open your eyes and ears. You will never be sorry.

 

[Sparkey]

I certainly don't see the question as being one of "maturity". That concept is almost laughable. Do you even know the age of the one to whom you are speaking to? It's rhetorical, no need to answer.

What I do see is a certain unwillingness to allow others to have their opinion. Any who oppose my "view" that "God is not a liar," are not going to be strongly rebuffed by me. There is no need.

~Sparrowhawke

 

[Orion]

There's no "maturity" in believing that which can't be proven and is inconsistent with evidence. :gah

There are no "answers" there, only dogma.

At present you are being purposefully "dull of hearing." :yes Ask Him to open your eyes and ears. You will never be sorry.

It isn't my fault if that is the case. It isn't MY doing. Again, I was sincere. I've prayed for years with an earnest heart, . . . .and was sorry each time (in other words, I came away with nothing).

 

[whirlwind]

There's no "maturity" in believing that which can't be proven and is inconsistent with evidence. :gah

There are no "answers" there, only dogma.

At present you are being purposefully "dull of hearing." :yes Ask Him to open your eyes and ears. You will never be sorry.

It isn't my fault if that is the case. It isn't MY doing. Again, I was sincere. I've prayed for years with an earnest heart, . . . .and was sorry each time (in other words, I came away with nothing).

What is it you pray for Orion? What are your questions? Do you enter the prayer already believing what is written is wrong and the correct answer should be aligned with your thought?

The questions I have asked have been answered except one and that is one I have asked since I was three....If God made us, who made God? I think every one has thought of that at some time in their lives. Actually, I just thought of a second one. If we are in the universe then what is the universe in? Where does it stop or...can it stop? Then I realized, I'm placing Him in my world, putting time, space and other limitations on Him. The Creator is outside my boundaries and my little brain can't comprehend those things.

But, I don't have a scientific mind...I'm an artist so the spiritual comes very easily to me. I'm okay with the few things I don't yet understand because...I know He is real. I know His Words are true.

 

[Orion]

What is it you pray for Orion? What are your questions? Do you enter the prayer already believing what is written is wrong and the correct answer should be aligned with your thought?

I ask with an honest heart and mind to understand God better, because I am completely open to the idea. However, I DON'T believe "what is written" because man had their hand in it, and I refuse to bow to a work of man, no matter how it insists itself to be "the literal words of God". Regardless, there is plenty that was written that shows things that I do not agree with, and could not condone.

The questions I have asked have been answered except one and that is one I have asked since I was three....If God made us, who made God? I think every one has thought of that at some time in their lives. Actually, I just thought of a second one. If we are in the universe then what is the universe in? Where does it stop or...can it stop? Then I realized, I'm placing Him in my world, putting time, space and other limitations on Him. The Creator is outside my boundaries and my little brain can't comprehend those things.

Then how could you EVER "love him"? You may be able to "love" the christian concept, but if God is SOOOO hard to comprehend, . . . then you can never truly be able to "love" such a being. All we have to go on is the words of a book, but if God is far more than that, then no one could ever have enough knowledge to know what they ARE "loving". For me, there is enough IN that book that makes me leary.

But, I don't have a scientific mind...I'm an artist so the spiritual comes very easily to me. I'm okay with the few things I don't yet understand because...I know He is real. I know His Words are true.

Please tell me how you know "he is real" and "his words are true"? Just so you know, I am artistic as well, but am also one who uses logic/reason.

 

[whirlwind]

What is it you pray for Orion? What are your questions? Do you enter the prayer already believing what is written is wrong and the correct answer should be aligned with your thought?

I ask with an honest heart and mind to understand God better, because I am completely open to the idea. However, I DON'T believe "what is written" because man had their hand in it, and I refuse to bow to a work of man, no matter how it insists itself to be "the literal words of God". Regardless, there is plenty that was written that shows things that I do not agree with, and could not condone.

Good, for that is what He tells you. "Take heed lest any man deceive you: For many shall come in My name, saying, 'I am Christ;' and shall deceive many. [Mark 13:5-6] But, He also tells us....

• Psalms 40:7-8 Then said I, "Lo, I come: In the volume of the book it is written of me, I delight to do Thy will, O my God:
  
  John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
  
  2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

So, one must be leery, as you are, and not take the word of man but you MUST take the Word of God and His Word is written in Scripture and that Word is God. He does not lie. Knowing that the Bible has certainly been tampered with through time by the very man/men trying to deceive us as well as simple human error what are we to do?

My solution is to use the Companion Bible which is a King James but it has side notes written by Bullinger which point out where discrepencies are between it and the text. Bullinger was the only Christian allowed to proof read the text in comparing the translation. I also use a Strong's Concordance so I'm able to take the word back to Hebrew or Greek to get a fuller understanding. Then, I don't take the word of man. The best way would be to be a Hebrew or Greek scholar and read the original text but...I'm not! I have enough trouble with simple Spanish words. :crazy

Even then, various commentaries say the words mean certain things. That again is man speaking and not all men are led by the Holy Spirit. And too, the Holy Spirit opens understanding to us as we read the Words. That is The Teacher we want to see and hear. He will speak to us through the written Word as well as through others.

The questions I have asked have been answered except one and that is one I have asked since I was three....If God made us, who made God? I think every one has thought of that at some time in their lives. Actually, I just thought of a second one. If we are in the universe then what is the universe in? Where does it stop or...can it stop? Then I realized, I'm placing Him in my world, putting time, space and other limitations on Him. The Creator is outside my boundaries and my little brain can't comprehend those things.

Then how could you EVER "love him"? You may be able to "love" the christian concept, but if God is SOOOO hard to comprehend, . . . then you can never truly be able to "love" such a being. All we have to go on is the words of a book, but if God is far more than that, then no one could ever have enough knowledge to know what they ARE "loving". For me, there is enough IN that book that makes me leary.

Those questions are and should be beyond my understanding. They have nothing to do with my love for Him. Does your child love you because they understand everything you do? What is it that you question in the Book?

But, I don't have a scientific mind...I'm an artist so the spiritual comes very easily to me. I'm okay with the few things I don't yet understand because...I know He is real. I know His Words are true. [/b]

Please tell me how you know "he is real" and "his words are true"? Just so you know, I am artistic as well, but am also one who uses logic/reason.

Well then...you must be a guy if you're using logic and reason. It is so funny how many artists are on Christian forums. :yes It is as if we are pre-programed to hear Him. (girls and guys)

I questioned, as you do now, and was led (by Him) to someone who showed me the answers in His Word. While this was going on I was seeing signs everywhere. I knew something was going on but didn't know what to do or where to go...but I knew I was being "shaken."

As I study He reveals deeper meaning. At times, especially when this began, it was so powerful that I was literally shaken and had to get up from my chair. Now I just smile and thank Him. When I am stumped on finding a certain verse I ask Him to help and He answers. At times the Bible opens on the page I need. He is VERY REAL. His Words are VERY TRUE.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

What is it you pray for Orion? What are your questions? Do you enter the prayer already believing what is written is wrong and the correct answer should be aligned with your thought?

I ask with an honest heart and mind to understand God better, because I am completely open to the idea. However, I DON'T believe "what is written" because man had their hand in it, and I refuse to bow to a work of man, no matter how it insists itself to be "the literal words of God". Regardless, there is plenty that was written that shows things that I do not agree with, and could not condone.

The questions I have asked have been answered except one and that is one I have asked since I was three....If God made us, who made God? I think every one has thought of that at some time in their lives. Actually, I just thought of a second one. If we are in the universe then what is the universe in? Where does it stop or...can it stop? Then I realized, I'm placing Him in my world, putting time, space and other limitations on Him. The Creator is outside my boundaries and my little brain can't comprehend those things.

Then how could you EVER "love him"? You may be able to "love" the christian concept, but if God is SOOOO hard to comprehend, . . . then you can never truly be able to "love" such a being. All we have to go on is the words of a book, but if God is far more than that, then no one could ever have enough knowledge to know what they ARE "loving". For me, there is enough IN that book that makes me leary.

But, I don't have a scientific mind...I'm an artist so the spiritual comes very easily to me. I'm okay with the few things I don't yet understand because...I know He is real. I know His Words are true.

Please tell me how you know "he is real" and "his words are true"? Just so you know, I am artistic as well, but am also one who uses logic/reason.

I have been reading your post and im sorry to say but you sound like a poor me

1st your not using logic and reason,,,,what you have is pure doubt......

And you got some nerve to make comments like this:::

It isn't my fault if that is the case. It isn't MY doing. Again, I was sincere. I've prayed for years with an earnest heart, . . . .and was sorry each time (in other words, I came away with nothing).

There's no "maturity" in believing that which can't be proven and is inconsistent with evidence. :gah

There are no "answers" there, only dogma.

At present you are being purposefully "dull of hearing." :yes Ask Him to open your eyes and ears. You will never be sorry.

It isn't my fault if that is the case. It isn't MY doing. Again, I was sincere. I've prayed for years with an earnest heart, . . . .and was sorry each time (in other words, I came away with nothing).

You came away with nothing????????? Well since your having trouble understanding God,,,,let me give you a bit of free advice on the personality of God.......If you are faithful over a little you be added over much,,,,,,what do you want from God???????? It sounds like if God does give you something,,,you wont appreciate it anyway,,,,,came away with nothing

You got a computer right???? food im sure,,,clothes also right??,,,,,your breathing,,,,,,you dont enjoy nature or animals,,,you mentioned you were artistic,,,I guess that talent just came from out of thin air right,,,God had nothing to do with it..........

 

[Orion]

whirlwind, what I am saying is that, regardless of 2 Timothy 3:16-17, which is a perfect example of "circular reasoning", . . . "The Bible is God's word because it says it is". . . . that does not mean it is actually true. There is no evidence of this being the case. It is a work of man. At best, "inspiration" of these men would be like the inspiration of an artist who paints what he see, . . . as inaccurate as it actually is. It is an image and not perfection. Monet was inspired by what he saw, but his painting is abstract.

NIGHTMARE, . . . if you are going to resort to personal attacks, then please post elsewhere!

This is getting off track anyway. This thread asked a question of whether or not Adam and Eve existed. In my opinion, there is no evidence to say one way or the other. But what is pretty clear is that the events found in the first few chapters of Genesis are nothing but an alegorical story.

 

[whirlwind]

whirlwind, what I am saying is that, regardless of 2 Timothy 3:16-17, which is a perfect example of "circular reasoning", . . . "The Bible is God's word because it says it is". . . . that does not mean it is actually true. There is no evidence of this being the case. It is a work of man. At best, "inspiration" of these men would be like the inspiration of an artist who paints what he see, . . . as inaccurate as it actually is. It is an image and not perfection. Monet was inspired by what he saw, but his painting is abstract.

NIGHTMARE, . . . if you are going to resort to personal attacks, then please post elsewhere!

This is getting off track anyway. This thread asked a question of whether or not Adam and Eve existed. In my opinion, there is no evidence to say one way or the other. But what is pretty clear is that the events found in the first few chapters of Genesis are nothing but an alegorical story.

Then...you are welcome to your opinion. It is wrong but you are welcome to it.

I hope that you will see and hear the truth of His Words before it is too late. I pray you will.

 

[Orion]

Uh, . . . no, I'm not wrong when I say that there is no evidence. If I am in error, please produce this evidence and I will be glad to look at it.

As for "the truth of his word", . . . I have not heard God speak to me, so until that happens, his words are not in question. If you are refering to the bible, . . . I have read it, and there is much that I cannot agree with, or condone.

 

[whirlwind]

Uh, . . . no, I'm not wrong when I say that there is no evidence. If I am in error, please produce this evidence and I will be glad to look at it.

As for "the truth of his word", . . . I have not heard God speak to me, so until that happens, his words are not in question. If you are refering to the bible, . . . I have read it, and there is much that I cannot agree with, or condone.

Evidence for humanity? Do you have a mirror handy? :D Evidence for the creation? Look around. Did it just happen? Did it just appear one day? :

Your attitude leaves a great deal to be desired Orion. If a child came to you with his chin jutted out and his finger jabbing in the air saying...prove it Dad, prove it...would you prove it or would you laugh in his face? You are acting like a recalcitrate child with an enormous chip on your shoulder.

I'm glad you "read it." The first time I read it ....I was looking for proof of aliens. Many years later I again decided to read it but this time I was looking for Him. You do NOT simply read the Bible like it's a novel, especially Job. :crazy You study the Bible and do so knowing the words are true and asking Him to help you understand what is written. Or...go it alone. It is your choice. He gives you that freedom. With you though, it feels to me as if you are searching and as such haven't turned your back. You believe in Him but not in His Words as man has had his hand in it. Is that correct?

I can tell you the answers to questions I have asked such as where it is written that this world is ancient. I don't know if you would or would not believe it...not all do, especially those that have been raised in a "church" environment where Adam and Eve are shown eating an apple, while a literal snake is wrapped around a tree over their heads, where this world is six thousand years old, etc.

I think, that as you are on this forum, you are searching but if not and you are simply "denying the power thereof," then....I must turn away.


Editing in....please read.....Proof of the Holy Spirit in the Bible

 

[Orion]

I could say the same about you, whirlwind. YOUR attitude leaves much to be desired when you respond with personal attacks.

SO, according to YOU, . . . if someone doesn't automatically agree with YOUR position, . . . then they're "acting like a child" or has "a chip on their shoulder". If you would give me PROOF that what you say is true, . . . . ANY proof, then I would have no problem. Rather, you give UN-answers and expect me to agree with you?? :naughty

Stop messing around with all this and give me your evidence. Quit trying to "one up" someone by personal attacks. If you can't do this, then by all means, post eslewhere because such tactics are very weak debating tactics.

As for "my motives", this IS the apologetics section, after all. Be apologetic!

Let's move on from this and back to the original post. This thread asked a question of whether or not Adam and Eve existed. In my opinion, there is no evidence to say one way or the other. But what is pretty clear is that the events found in the first few chapters of Genesis are nothing but an alegorical story. Some say it was a literal story, but when the evidence of the world and universe are contrary to it, the one making the claim that "Genesis is literal" is the one who must prove the case.

 

[whirlwind]

I could say the same about you, whirlwind. YOUR attitude leaves much to be desired when you respond with personal attacks.

SO, according to YOU, . . . if someone doesn't automatically agree with YOUR position, . . . then they're "acting like a child" or has "a chip on their shoulder". If you would give me PROOF that what you say is true, . . . . ANY proof, then I would have no problem. Rather, you give UN-answers and expect me to agree with you?? :naughty

Stop messing around with all this and give me your evidence. Quit trying to "one up" someone by personal attacks. If you can't do this, then by all means, post eslewhere because such tactics are very weak debating tactics.

As for "my motives", this IS the apologetics section, after all. Be apologetic!

Let's move on from this and back to the original post. This thread asked a question of whether or not Adam and Eve existed. In my opinion, there is no evidence to say one way or the other. But what is pretty clear is that the events found in the first few chapters of Genesis are nothing but an alegorical story. Some say it was a literal story, but when the evidence of the world and universe are contrary to it, the one making the claim that "Genesis is literal" is the one who must prove the case.

I'm sorry Orion....I didn't mean to be so harsh. I do apologize...not for what was said for it is true but for the way I said it. I'm not trying to "one up" anyone but it was a personal attack.

Adam and Eve existed because it is written and because we are here now. In spite of the claims of evolutionist there are NO SKELETAL remains of humans. Apes, monkeys and fragments of a pig trying to be passed off as human yes, but...no humans. At least not before 14,000 years ago. There was an age before this present age and we were here but not in flesh. We were spirit just as we will be spirit in the next age.

Along with the family Jesus would come from, Adam and Eve, we have the other families, the races, all races which were created on the sixth day, which I believe was in the six thousandth year of this present age. That angers some but all races did not come from one man.

The earth is ancient. Not only does science show this but the Bible tells this. Genesis and other books "literally" tell us these things. Why? Because God does not lie!

 

[NIGHTMARE]

whirlwind, what I am saying is that, regardless of 2 Timothy 3:16-17, which is a perfect example of "circular reasoning", . . . "The Bible is God's word because it says it is". . . . that does not mean it is actually true. There is no evidence of this being the case. It is a work of man. At best, "inspiration" of these men would be like the inspiration of an artist who paints what he see, . . . as inaccurate as it actually is. It is an image and not perfection. Monet was inspired by what he saw, but his painting is abstract.

NIGHTMARE, . . . if you are going to resort to personal attacks, then please post elsewhere!

This is getting off track anyway. This thread asked a question of whether or not Adam and Eve existed. In my opinion, there is no evidence to say one way or the other. But what is pretty clear is that the events found in the first few chapters of Genesis are nothing but an alegorical story.

Im not personally attacking you,,,, just in utter shock,,, how you make comments you make....

You say your sincere,,,but then you say you came without with nothing from God.....Well see that makes for a big problem,,,,because God has promised He is sincere,,,and that He will bless you if your sincere......

So either you dont understand your blessings....

Our your just to darn faithless and doubtful......

And im not getting on you or nothing of that sort,,,but you spoke the first personal attack,,,,,,,when you said

It isn't my fault if that is the case. It isn't MY doing. Again, I was sincere. I've prayed for years with an earnest heart, . . . .and was sorry each time (in other words, I came away with nothing).

Sounds like a personal attack on the faithfulness of God to me....IF this is true (which I think not) then blame yourself.........You know some dont that critizing God to lightly.......

-------As far as evidence for Adam and Eve,,,,,,,ummmmmmmm ,,,,

Ok I cant provide evidence that I had a great great great great great great great great grandmother ,,,,I guess she doesnt exist,,,wait::::that means??????

 

[Orion]

I'm sorry Orion....I didn't mean to be so harsh. I do apologize...not for what was said for it is true but for the way I said it. I'm not trying to "one up" anyone but it was a personal attack.

Adam and Eve existed because it is written and because we are here now. In spite of the claims of evolutionist there are NO SKELETAL remains of humans. Apes, monkeys and fragments of a pig trying to be passed off as human yes, but...no humans. At least not before 14,000 years ago. There was an age before this present age and we were here but not in flesh. We were spirit just as we will be spirit in the next age.

Along with the family Jesus would come from, Adam and Eve, we have the other families, the races, all races which were created on the sixth day, which I believe was in the six thousandth year of this present age. That angers some but all races did not come from one man.

The earth is ancient. Not only does science show this but the Bible tells this. Genesis and other books "literally" tell us these things. Why? Because God does not lie!

Thanks.

I think we can agree on some of these points, whirlwind. The earth and universe are definitely very old. I'm not necessarily an evolutionist. There are some indications that would point that way, but I don't believe we can fully know that far in the past. As for Adam and Eve, I still believe that the story of them in Genesis was a metaphorical story based on two potentially real people who were the founders of what would eventually become Abrahamic religions. On this point, we will have to disagree, but some common ground is refreshing.

 

[Orion]

Im not personally attacking you,,,, just in utter shock,,, how you make comments you make....

"I have been reading your post and im sorry to say but you sound like a poor me "

It isn't surprising that you don't view things the same way as I do, for obviously, the comment above, posted by you, is a personal attack, insinuating that I am a "cry baby". I promise to not personally attack you or anyone else.

You say your sincere,,,but then you say you came without with nothing from God.....Well see that makes for a big problem,,,,because God has promised He is sincere,,,and that He will bless you if your sincere......

So either you dont understand your blessings....

Our your just to darn faithless and doubtful......

And im not getting on you or nothing of that sort,,,but you spoke the first personal attack,,,,,,,when you said

It isn't my fault if that is the case. It isn't MY doing. Again, I was sincere. I've prayed for years with an earnest heart, . . . .and was sorry each time (in other words, I came away with nothing).

Sounds like a personal attack on the faithfulness of God to me....IF this is true (which I think not) then blame yourself.........You know some dont that critizing God to lightly.......

You're right that God shares blame (if what you say is true) because I WAS sincere, and no one but me can make a judgement on my motives but me. Believe me, . . . I was quite sincere. I realize that the Bible promises that the sincere will be blessed, but that doesn't hold true every time. I sincerely searched . . . and what I found was myself, alone in my room, with only my own thoughts. I would be all for hearing something, even today.

-------As far as evidence for Adam and Eve,,,,,,,ummmmmmmm ,,,,

Ok I cant provide evidence that I had a great great great great great great great great grandmother ,,,,I guess she doesnt exist,,,wait::::that means??????

Your evidence is that each person has a set of biological parents. You can extend this into the past.

My ONLY comment was to those who believe that the earth and universe was created ~6,000 - 10,000 years ago, going soley on biblical geneologies. Of that, I can only point you to my previous post to whirlwind as to the extent I can go on this topic.