Did God Cause the Fall?

[Sparkey]

S T O P
PAUSE - ONE MOMENT (only one moment) then proceed with a blessing!
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[Sparkey]

You guys are doing work.
It will be a "good work" with HIS blessing on it.
I (Sparrow) would like to see a side by side LIST entitled:

• [list:2zywghma]PREDESTINATION: "For It" .and. "Against"

[/list:u:2zywghma]
This LIST would be one of Pros and Cons - here how you need to accomplish it:

It shall be made in the One on One debate forum.

Here's the rule: Each party must begin by stating (as well as they are able) the position of the other.

So, Benoni will you be the more noble? Will you be the first to accept the offer to turn the chess table 180 degrees and attempt to speak the words of your brother? Remember, if you accept, you must do it from your heart prayerfully. Your first post (as suggested by the author of this interruption) might be:

The Argument of FoC, as stated by Benoni:
It is clear that God is Holy and nothing can penetrate Him to cast dispersion on this. If we take the extreme example of a man most vile who commits a crime of abominable proportion, "________________" fill in the blank with that part which you have prayed about and consider your opponents best argument(s).

Then - it's FoC's turn - not to post rebuttal from the best parts of your opponent's argument (yet). But instead to be given a chance to BRIEFLY clarify and strengthen the argument Benoni has presented for you. That could include insistence on a single word yes or no answer for instance. Only after there is agreement from you that, "Yeah - that sounds pretty good to me" - might you begin to state his best points (in your sight). In stead of posting rhetoric back and forth -- you both agree to keep that to a minimum and PM each other not to argue - but to agree what the "best parts" are.

Only then (after an agreed "strong" argument for one party has been made) may the discussion turn to the next stage. Now you will be allowed to return the favor. The initial argument(s) into the "debate" is thus entered and agreed.

No more introduction of any further argument, scripture or reference until you've settled what is on the "central area of discussion" and the "field of the error domain" between you. There should be a time limit set (36 hours) for the debate to go and then it is concluded. At that time a single edit is made to your initial agreed upon posts to summarize what has been learned and rebuttal is made as well.

I'll leave you two to further work out the details via PM, yes?

~Sparrow

 

[Sparkey]

S T O P
PAUSE - ONE MOMENT (only one moment) then proceed with a blessing!
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S T A R T

 

[mondar]

actually he didnt give me HIS clear answer saying yes or no that God 'ordains' it....read his POST.

Neither did you give me a clear answer when I asked you if Adams sin has any influence on us today.

 

[follower of Christ]

actually he didnt give me HIS clear answer saying yes or no that God 'ordains' it....read his POST.

Neither did you give me a clear answer when I asked you if Adams sin has any influence on us today.

How about this, when benoni can give us a yes or no answer, you'll get yours.

 

[follower of Christ]

I'll leave you two to further work out the details via PM, yes?

you certainly do not expect that, even if I were to agree to anything, that benoni would even remotely consider restraining himself here ?

How about this.
Lets keep things just as they are minus the personal attacks.
Sounds perfect to me.

 

[Relic]

I'll leave you two to further work out the details via PM, yes?

you certainly do not expect that, even if I were to agree to anything, that benoni would even remotely consider restraining himself here ?

How about this.
Lets keep things just as they are minus the personal attacks.
Sounds perfect to me.

follower of Christ, I appreciate your logical postings very much. Thank you for exposing all of the convoluted messages some are trying to present here.

.

 

[Benoni]

All men are born in sin; all men are born of Adam and are born with a carnal human nature. It takes God's spirit to quicken us out of that death state; before we can hear or see anything spirtual.

1 Corin 15: 21: For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23: But every man in his own order:

While I agree that we are born into sin, I do not think this text from 1 Cor 15 is valid support - it is a text about the future resurrection from the dead, not a treatment of God working in the lives of sinner to regenerate them.

1 Corin 15: 21: is a declaration to us of God’s beginning of man seeing we are all dead in Adam to his final conclusion when all will be made in Christ; as well as how God plans to do it; each in their own order. Clearly it is written, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in His own order; Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." (I Cor. 15:22-23). There is no doubt concerning the totality of salvation for every man-- whatever was affected by death through Adam, shall be MADE ALIVE THROUGH CHRIST. The triumph of Christ is far greater than the sin of Adam. But the point that is before us is that of TIMING-- with "every man in his own order." There is DIVINE ORDER in this NEW CREATION that is being brought forth, as God gathers one by one a people unto Himself. From Calvary until this present time, God has been working in what is rightly termed "HIS FIRSTFRUITS." We who are living at the ending of this age (web ed. note: which still could be a long ways away) are still being drawn into this "firstfruits order." But never forget, the firstfruits of a harvest are the PROMISE that all the rest of the harvest will follow in its time.



1 Corin 15: 21: For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23: But every man in his own order:

 

[Benoni]

The problem is certain party's rejects scripture with no valid reason to reject scripture accept they do not agree

You guys are doing work.
It will be a "good work" with HIS blessing on it.
I (Sparrow) would like to see a side by side LIST entitled:

• [list:3udpl7lr]PREDESTINATION: "For It" .and. "Against"

[/list:u:3udpl7lr]
This LIST would be one of Pros and Cons - here how you need to accomplish it:

It shall be made in the One on One debate forum.

Here's the rule: Each party must begin by stating (as well as they are able) the position of the other.

So, Benoni will you be the more noble? Will you be the first to accept the offer to turn the chess table 180 degrees and attempt to speak the words of your brother? Remember, if you accept, you must do it from your heart prayerfully. Your first post (as suggested by the author of this interruption) might be:

The Argument of FoC, as stated by Benoni:
It is clear that God is Holy and nothing can penetrate Him to cast dispersion on this. If we take the extreme example of a man most vile who commits a crime of abominable proportion, "________________" fill in the blank with that part which you have prayed about and consider your opponents best argument(s).

Then - it's FoC's turn - not to post rebuttal from the best parts of your opponent's argument (yet). But instead to be given a chance to BRIEFLY clarify and strengthen the argument Benoni has presented for you. That could include insistence on a single word yes or no answer for instance. Only after there is agreement from you that, "Yeah - that sounds pretty good to me" - might you begin to state his best points (in your sight). In stead of posting rhetoric back and forth -- you both agree to keep that to a minimum and PM each other not to argue - but to agree what the "best parts" are.

Only then (after an agreed "strong" argument for one party has been made) may the discussion turn to the next stage. Now you will be allowed to return the favor. The initial argument(s) into the "debate" is thus entered and agreed.

No more introduction of any further argument, scripture or reference until you've settled what is on the "central area of discussion" and the "field of the error domain" between you. There should be a time limit set (36 hours) for the debate to go and then it is concluded. At that time a single edit is made to your initial agreed upon posts to summarize what has been learned and rebuttal is made as well.

I'll leave you two to further work out the details via PM, yes?

~Sparrow

 

[Benoni]

Drew,

How can this be true. As I sit in this office eating my lunch, I am surrounded by unbelievers - people who are spiritually dead. And yet they clearly "hear, see, touch, and feel".

Sure they do in the natural… but I never said in the natural realm; I said they do not "hear, see, touch, and feel" God or spiritual things; they reject all things of God.



.

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 3:11 (AMP) No one understands [no one intelligently discerns or comprehends]; no one seeks out God.

Romans 3:11 (NCV) 11 There is no one who understands.
There is no one who looks to God for help.

Romans 3:9 (MSG) So where does that put us? Do we Jews get a better break than the others? Not really. Basically, all of us, whether insiders or outsiders, start out in identical conditions, which is to say that we all start out as sinners. Scripture leaves no doubt about it:

There's nobody living right, not even one,
nobody who knows the score, nobody alert for God.
They've all taken the wrong turn;
they've all wandered down blind alleys.
No one's living right;
I can't find a single one.
Their throats are gaping graves,
their tongues slick as mudslides.
Every word they speak is tinged with poison.
They open their mouths and pollute the air.
They race for the honor of sinner-of-the-year,
litter the land with heartbreak and ruin,
Don't know the first thing about living with others.
They never give God the time of day.
This makes it clear, doesn't it, that whatever is written in these Scriptures is not what God says about others but to us to whom these Scriptures were addressed in the first place! And it's clear enough, isn't it, that we're sinners, every one of us, in the same sinking boat with everybody else? Our involvement with God's revelation doesn't put us right with God. What it does is force us to face our complicity in everyone else's sin.


The word freewill or choice are not found anywhere in the NT when it comes to someone freely choosing his own salvation. The word freewill is not even found in the Bible except for the Freewill Offering in the OT; which has nothing to do with salvation even as an example. God saves us by His grace, the and only then can carnal man have faith to believe in God and be saved.

In John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) and I will add forces him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[follower of Christ]

The problem is certain party's rejects scripture with no valid reason to reject scripture accept they do not agree

I agree....so why do you persist in doing so ?

 

[follower of Christ]

1 Corin 15: 21: is a declaration to us of God’s beginning of man seeing we are all dead in Adam to his final conclusion when all will be made in Christ; as well as how God plans to do it; each in their own order. Clearly it is written, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in His own order; Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." (I Cor. 15:22-23). There is no doubt concerning the totality of salvation for every man-- whatever was affected by death through Adam, shall be MADE ALIVE THROUGH CHRIST. The triumph of Christ is far greater than the sin of Adam. But the point that is before us is that of TIMING-- with "every man in his own order." There is DIVINE ORDER in this NEW CREATION that is being brought forth, as God gathers one by one a people unto Himself. From Calvary until this present time, God has been working in what is rightly termed "HIS FIRSTFRUITS." We who are living at the ending of this age (web ed. note: which still could be a long ways away) are still being drawn into this "firstfruits order." But never forget, the firstfruits of a harvest are the PROMISE that all the rest of the harvest will follow in its time.



1 Corin 15: 21: For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23: But every man in his own order:

1 Corinthians 15 is about the resurrection of all from the grave.
It also has nothing to do with God causing the fall.

 

[follower of Christ]

The word freewill or choice are not found anywhere in the NT when it comes to someone freely choosing his own salvation.

I guess since this strawman is all you have that its only logical for you to keep presenting it.
I repeat, NO ONE has said that man can save himself.
When God draws, however, the man DOES have the choice and CAN reject salvation.
READERS SEE >>> Can man reject God/salvation?

The word freewill is not even found in the Bible except for the Freewill Offering in the OT;

ie the concept IS in the bible contrary to your claims.

which has nothing to do with salvation even as an example. God saves us by His grace, the and only then can carnal man have faith to believe in God and be saved.

Man was separated FROM God because of Adams sin.
ONLY when God draws a man does the man have the option of coming back into fellowship with God.
This is pretty simple stuff.

In John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) and I will add forces him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And THERE you go...

 

[Benoni]

Well if man can choose after God draws then show me in God's Word? More assumption without validation.

You are the last person who can validate a truth, all you do is reject scripture if it does not fit your old wine skin.

The word freewill or choice are not found anywhere in the NT when it comes to someone freely choosing his own salvation.

I guess since this strawman is all you have that its only logical for you to keep presenting it.
I repeat, NO ONE has said that man can save himself.
When God draws, however, the man DOES have the choice and CAN reject salvation.
READERS SEE >>> Can man reject God/salvation?

The word freewill is not even found in the Bible except for the Freewill Offering in the OT;

ie the concept IS in the bible contrary to your claims.
[quote:lxak4ena]which has nothing to do with salvation even as an example. God saves us by His grace, the and only then can carnal man have faith to believe in God and be saved.

Man was separated FROM God because of Adams sin.
ONLY when God draws a man does the man have the option of coming back into fellowship with God.
This is pretty simple stuff.

In John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) and I will add forces him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And THERE you go...[/quote:lxak4ena]

 

[follower of Christ]

Well if man can choose after God draws then show me in God's Word? More assumption without validation.

Oh please...
I gave a link to a list of passages that show conclusively that man DOES have the ability to reject God...and if he has that ability then he also can choose to obey and follow God.
I posted a link because I mistakenly assumed that you might have READ a post at some previous point and didnt think Id have to post it again. Ill do so at the end of this post and we'll see if you actually read it this time around.
This is growing pathetic.

You are the last person who can validate a truth, all you do is reject scripture if it does not fit your old wine skin.

Singing the same old worn out song...

DOES man have the CHOICE to REJECT God ?
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this article
Simply to show that scripture does support the idea that man does have free will to reject God both before and after having come under this covenant.

Supporting Evidence
[quote:3bx5kv4d]See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, having refused Him who warned them, how much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who warns from heaven; whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven."
(Heb 12:25-26)

how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by those who heard Him;
(Heb 2:3 MKJV)

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2 Peter 2:21

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
(Heb 10:26-39 KJV)

The statement "we are not of them who draw back unto perdition" is entirely absurd *IF* 'them' had not actually 'draw back' to perdition.
And the writers EXHORTATION TO these believing Hebrews is VOID of ANY and ALL meaning in REFERRING to these who had 'DRAWN BACK' in his warning to these believers *IF* they could not do the very same thing.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame . For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
(Heb 6:4-9 KJV)

Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
(Heb 3:1-19 KJV)

[/quote:3bx5kv4d]

 

[Benoni]

I try not to read your post they are always based on your opinon; I do not care to read your opinion.

I ask to show me using God's word but your far better at rejecting God's Word then quoting it.

Well if man can choose after God draws then show me in God's Word? More assumption without validation.

Oh please...
I gave a link to a list of passages that show conclusively that man DOES have the ability to reject God...and if he has that ability then he also can choose to obey and follow God.
I posted a link because I mistakenly assumed that you might have READ a post at some previous point and didnt think Id have to post it again. Ill do so at the end of this post and we'll see if you actually read it this time around.
This is growing pathetic.

You are the last person who can validate a truth, all you do is reject scripture if it does not fit your old wine skin.

Singing the same old worn out song...


[quote:jelftb58]DOES man have the CHOICE to REJECT God ?
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this article
Simply to show that scripture does support the idea that man does have free will to reject God both before and after having come under this covenant.

Supporting Evidence
[quote:jelftb58]See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, having refused Him who warned them, how much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who warns from heaven; whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven."
(Heb 12:25-26)

how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by those who heard Him;
(Heb 2:3 MKJV)

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2 Peter 2:21

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
(Heb 10:26-39 KJV)

The statement "we are not of them who draw back unto perdition" is entirely absurd *IF* 'them' had not actually 'draw back' to perdition.
And the writers EXHORTATION TO these believing Hebrews is VOID of ANY and ALL meaning in REFERRING to these who had 'DRAWN BACK' in his warning to these believers *IF* they could not do the very same thing.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame . For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
(Heb 6:4-9 KJV)

Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
(Heb 3:1-19 KJV)

[/quote:jelftb58][/quote:jelftb58]

 

[Benoni]

By the way ever verse in your link is in reference to believers; my point has never pertaind to believers for they have been quicken to what ever level of relationship God has drawn them; it has to do with the unjust or the lost. Notice the text in John 6:44 "No one "comes" it does not say no one who has already come, or those who back slid came; but the text is addressing "BUT no one comes"....

One of those thin lines you over looked.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively):


The truth of the supernatural and all-powerful DRAWING of God is one of the most neglected of all the great truths of God's Word, and yet it is one of the most important. Undoubtedly the reason for its neglect is that it is repugnant to the world of unregenerate man, and professing Christians whose theology denies the sovereign and infinite grace of God. One of the chief characteristics of apostate Christendom is that it vigorously opposes any teaching of Scripture that refuses to give man the glory. Therefore any doctrine of the Bible that declares man's helplessness apart from the activating power of God is bound to arouse the ire of the adversary and his followers.

 

[follower of Christ]

I try not to read your post they are always based on your opinon; I do not care to read your opinion.

Ah...there we go.
Ya see this folks ? He's arguing with himself because apparently he's not actually READING my arguments and the scriptures I post ;)

I ask to show me using God's word but your far better at rejecting God's Word then quoting it.

How would you know what Im posting since you JUST SAID you dont read my posts ? ;)

Here's the difference between you and I.
I BELIEVE what Im saying, so reading your posts is no threat to my views.
You, on the other hand, seem to be threatened by what Ive presented and thus have chosen to close your eyes and plug your ears.

I think you and I are done here. Please find a way to not respond to any more of my posts.

The Root of the Righteous
CHAPTER 7
On Receiving Admonition

3. When reproved, pay no attention to the source. Do not ask whether it is a friend or an enemy that reproves you. An enemy is often of greater value to you than a friend because he is not influenced by sympathy.

.

 

[Benoni]

I do read your post; but I try to avoid the ones with your opinion if that is all you have to post; like I said you reject all scripture that does not fit your old warn out wine skin.

This has happened over and over in our debate; God’s Word does not speak to you because your opinion is your god; if the verse I quote is contrary to your bias you reject it with no merit.

If Jesus quoted you a scripture that was contrary to your opinion you tell him he is wrong too. You are very closed minded when it comes to God’s Word; this is not a one time occurrence; this happens way too often.

I try not to read your post they are always based on your opinon; I do not care to read your opinion.

Ah...there we go.
Ya see this folks ? He's arguing with himself because apparently he's not actually READING my arguments and the scriptures I post ;)

I ask to show me using God's word but your far better at rejecting God's Word then quoting it.

How would you know what Im posting since you JUST SAID you dont read my posts ? ;)

Here's the difference between you and I.
I BELIEVE what Im saying, so reading your posts is no threat to my views.
You, on the other hand, seem to be threatened by what Ive presented and thus have chosen to close your eyes and plug your ears.

I think you and I are done here. Please find a way to not respond to any more of my posts.

[quote:404cqg9f]The Root of the Righteous
CHAPTER 7
On Receiving Admonition

3. When reproved, pay no attention to the source. Do not ask whether it is a friend or an enemy that reproves you. An enemy is often of greater value to you than a friend because he is not influenced by sympathy.

.[/quote:404cqg9f]

 

[follower of Christ]

By the way ever verse in your link is in reference to believers;

Huh...he CLAIMS that he doesnt read my posts, yet here he is responding to them

By the way, ALL of scripture is written TO the followers of God as it is the words given TO them.
And you just buried your entire argument.
If a man can REJECT God AFTER having come to Him then God certainly ISNT 'forcing' the man to come.
Thanks for refuting your own stance for us.

my point has never pertaind to believers for they have been quicken to what ever level of relationship God has drawn them; it has to do with the unjust or the lost.

uh..you may not have purposefully made the claim but your error applies to ALL men, saved and unsaved, by default, since you claim that God 'forces' (draws, ordains, etc) man in one way or another.

So you DO agree, at least, that BELIEVERS have free will and thus destroying your earlier arguments that man only does what God ordains, including his sin....great

So the passages I gave you claim only apply to believers. Thats nice. So now we know you AGREE that believers CAN reject God after coming to Him.
And since man cannot even come to Him unless He draws them, then we dont even need to discuss whether the unsaved can come to Him by choice..we KNOW that they cannot until He works in their hearts to draw them...as we have ALREADY agreed and confirmed many times in this thread thus far.

One of those thin lines you over looked.

No, one of those things you BELIEVE I overlooked.
You should have asked first instead of making yourself look silly by ASSUMING.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively):

The truth of the supernatural and all-powerful DRAWING of God is one of the most neglected of all the great truths of God's Word, and yet it is one of the most important.

Now if only this verse and your pet word 'draw' there were ALL of the evidence then you MIGHT have a case. Too bad it isnt....learn to quit playing greek scholar and open a bible and learn some CONTEXT from the WHOLE word of God.
God doesnt force men to love Him...and doing such a thing would contradict the purpose of mans creation...a being that can come to Him willingly. A point which you seem to be oblivious to.

Undoubtedly the reason for its neglect is that it is repugnant to the world of unregenerate man, and professing Christians whose theology denies the sovereign and infinite grace of God.

Sorry friend but we deny neither.
If anything we confirm His sovereignty when we say that He can give man FREE will, but His sovereignty and determined will isnt threatened by mans free will.
If anyones views are an insult to the Creator it is that which claim that He MUST have absolute control and even cause mans sin in order to keep control....as tho if He allows man any freedom at all then He has no sovereignty at all.
This doctrine doesnt seem to even comprehend that mere kings of MEN can be 'sovereign' yet allow their subjects freedom.
Pitiful that this god some worship is less powerful than these kings.

One of the chief characteristics of apostate Christendom is that it vigorously opposes any teaching of Scripture that refuses to give man the glory. Therefore any doctrine of the Bible that declares man's helplessness apart from the activating power of God is bound to arouse the ire of the adversary and his followers.

Lets not start playing martyr here, ok ? This thread is enough of an embarassment as it is.