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Did God Chose you or did you chose God

Osgiliath said:
Precisely. :thumbsup

Luke 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
Luke 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.


This is in complete accord with Matthew 13:11: "…To them it is not given…to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God."

This 'blindness of Israel' referred to by Christ here in Matthew 13 is quoted from Isaiah 6:9-10 and is repeated again and again in the other gospels (Matthew 4:11; Luke 8:10; and John 12:40) and throughout Paul's epistles (Romans 11:8, etc.).

Why do people reject Christ? Why does Israel reject their Messiah?

Matthew 13:11 "Because…to them it is NOT GIVEN…to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven."

Who blinds them to this vital knowledge? What are we told? Are we told anywhere in the pages of scripture that because of the stubborn will of the chief priests and elders and because of the stubborn will of the multitudes, Israel ends up refusing their invitation to the marriage supper of the Lamb? No, we are not told such a thing.

Here is what we are told.

Acts 4:27 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together
Acts 4:28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done."


Just how far does this "Your purpose determined before to be done" go? Does it go no further than man's free will permits? Could Judas, the chief priests and elders, Pilate or the multitude possibly have of their own free will chosen not to destroy Christ?

Will we believe what a church tradition tells us or will the word of God have pre-eminence for us? Here is what the scriptures teach from Genesis to Revelation:

Ephesians 1:9 "Having made known to us the mystery of HIS WILL, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works ALL THINGS according to the counsel of HIS WILL."


"ALL THINGS" means ALL!


In truth, when "God draws you to Christ" (John 6:44) NO ONE can resist, and NO ONE can reject Him out of stubbornness. It is true God does not force us to do anything, the Truth is:

Romans 2:4 "...the goodness of God LEADETH thee to repentance"

Any choice that we make is a CAUSED CHOICE, caused by 'Him who worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL.'

God is the potter and we, mankind, are all the lump of clay (Romans 9:21). A potter does not force the clay to do anything; he 'leads' it, he forms it.


The account of Saul is for our admonition. Saul as a zealous young church leader had consented to the stoning of righteous Stephen. He was constantly "breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord" (Acts 9:1). But the goodness of God led Saul to repentance. Is Saul's own will free of the forming and leading of the Potter? Of course not. Could Saul's stubbornness (which was greater than anyone's) resist God's call? Of course not! Neither can anyone. To say otherwise is contrary to scripture and is a false teaching.

No one can resist God's Will. If someone has rejected Christ, or is not in Christ, God has NOT called that person, PERIOD. A minister at a revival may have called or invited that person to accept Christ, but not God. If God "draws" a person, that person WILL follow Christ, and will from that point on, be "in Christ." No amount of stubborn will on man's part can resist.

Isaiah 14:27 "For the LORD of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?"

Proverbs 21:1 "The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord as the rivers of water: He turneth it whithersoever He will."

Philippians 2:13 "it is God who is operating in us to WILL and to DO HIS good pleasure."
Click to expand...

Hi,

You've got these verses posted here to make your argument, however, I'd suggest there is more to the issue that you've not posted. For instance why was Israel blinded? There was a reason, It wasn't because God just decided to save a few and reject the rest.
 
He chooses us first..but we must also get to the place where we choose Him as well and with the same fervency!
 
Originally posted by Butch5,

You've got these verses posted here to make your argument, however, I'd suggest there is more to the issue that you've not posted. For instance why was Israel blinded? There was a reason, It wasn't because God just decided to save a few and reject the rest.
Click to expand...

Who said anything about GOD REJECTING ANYONE?

There is an "order" to God's plan. Those who are called and chosen are the FIRSTFRUITS of the harvest. God didn't just decide to save a few and reject the rest. Those He chooses NOW in this brief life in the flesh are simply chosen FIRST - they are the FIRST of the GREAT HARVEST, which shall come at a later time.

1 Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam ALL DIE, even so in Christ shall ALL BE MADE ALIVE.
1 Corinthians 15:23 But EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

Orthodox Christianity will tell you that this brief life in the flesh is the only opportunity for someone to be saved. That is FALSE! This life in the flesh is the only opportunity for someone to BE ONE OF THE FIRSTFRUITS. They are FIRST IN LINE. But they are only the firstfruit sample of the harvest. The rest of the harvest will be gathered at a later time - EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER. Paul certainly disagrees with Orthodox Christendom which says this life in the flesh is the only opportunity for a man to be saved:

1 Corinthians 15:19 "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable."


Here are other Scriptures which demonstrate this truth:

Romans 11:31 "Even so have these also now not believed, So that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."


Notice how this works with (physical) Israel:

Romans 11:30 "For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their [Israel's] unbelief:
Romans 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy."


When do we show mercy to physical Israel, through whose unbelief we have believed? No need to guess:

Ezekiel 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.


Ezekiel 37 is when all Israel is saved:

Ezekiel 37:11 "Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.


Just when is that? It is when "the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled;"


Romans 11:25 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob."


When "the fulness of the Gentiles be come in then... all Israel shall be saved."


Exactly when does "the fulness of the Gentiles come in?" Here again, is what the scriptures teach.

Ezekiel 16:55 "When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate."


This Scripture dispels the orthodox lie which says that Sodom is at this very moment in eternal hell fire with no hope of ever being saved.

AFTER the 'fulness of the Gentiles come in' - THEN Israel (physical) will be saved.

There is AN ORDER to God's plan of Salvation. The problem lies with the 200 million false doctrines of orthodoxy that darken the sky of truth. (see Revelation 9:16)
 
Osgiliath said:


Who said anything about GOD REJECTING ANYONE?

There is an "order" to God's plan. Those who are called and chosen are the FIRSTFRUITS of the harvest. God didn't just decide to save a few and reject the rest. Those He chooses NOW in this brief life in the flesh are simply chosen FIRST - they are the FIRST of the GREAT HARVEST, which shall come at a later time.

1 Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam ALL DIE, even so in Christ shall ALL BE MADE ALIVE.
1 Corinthians 15:23 But EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

Orthodox Christianity will tell you that this brief life in the flesh is the only opportunity for someone to be saved. That is FALSE! This life in the flesh is the only opportunity for someone to BE ONE OF THE FIRSTFRUITS. They are FIRST IN LINE. But they are only the firstfruit sample of the harvest. The rest of the harvest will be gathered at a later time - EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER. Paul certainly disagrees with Orthodox Christendom which says this life in the flesh is the only opportunity for a man to be saved:

1 Corinthians 15:19 "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable."


Here are other Scriptures which demonstrate this truth:

Romans 11:31 "Even so have these also now not believed, So that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."


Notice how this works with (physical) Israel:

Romans 11:30 "For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their [Israel's] unbelief:
Romans 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy."


When do we show mercy to physical Israel, through whose unbelief we have believed? No need to guess:

Ezekiel 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.


Ezekiel 37 is when all Israel is saved:

Ezekiel 37:11 "Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.


Just when is that? It is when "the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled;"


Romans 11:25 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob."


When "the fulness of the Gentiles be come in then... all Israel shall be saved."


Exactly when does "the fulness of the Gentiles come in?" Here again, is what the scriptures teach.

Ezekiel 16:55 "When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate."


This Scripture dispels the orthodox lie which says that Sodom is at this very moment in eternal hell fire with no hope of ever being saved.

AFTER the 'fulness of the Gentiles come in' - THEN Israel (physical) will be saved.

There is AN ORDER to God's plan of Salvation. The problem lies with the 200 million false doctrines of orthodoxy that darken the sky of truth. (see Revelation 9:16)
Click to expand...


What exactly do you mean by this life in the flesh? When exactly do you believe others (not in this life in the flesh) will be saved? I am guessing this has something to do with your phrase "spiritually speaking" correct?
 
Butch5 said:
That's true, however, that doesn't mean he opens everyone's heart.
Click to expand...

...and it certainly doesn't mean that we open our own hearts rather than God, doing it, as happened with Lydia.

There is in fact both human responsibility and God's sovereignty; both are Scriptural.
 
Hi Osgiliath,

What happens to people after they die? Where do they go? You're not sugesting everyone goes to heaven? How would you interpret this Scripture?

Hebrews 9:27-28
New International Version (NIV)
27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

I'm not altogether sure what blindness in part means, but I would have no confidence in someone's salvation if they did not repent in the here and now.

I would like to address the Scriptures you referenced but I'm not currently at my pc.

- Davies
 
Just a reminder that Universal Reconciliation is not to be discussed and is in violation of the TOS.
 
Free said:
Just a reminder that Universal Reconciliation is not to be discussed and is in violation of the TOS.
Click to expand...

Hi Free,

Just wanted to point out that we are allowed to discuss Universal Reconciliation. It just can't be promoted.

"Discussing these doctrines are fine, as long as the beliefs are not actively promoted." - ToS

- Davies
 
Davies said:
Hi Free,

Just wanted to point out that we are allowed to discuss Universal Reconciliation. It just can't be promoted.

"Discussing these doctrines are fine, as long as the beliefs are not actively promoted." - ToS

- Davies
Click to expand...
This forum's rules state that it cannot be discussed at all:

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=21502&p=290437&viewfull=1#post290437

Regardless, unless I am mistaken, it is being actively promoted.


Edited to add:

The important point from the main TOS: "Discussing these doctrines are fine, as long as the beliefs are not actively promoted. This includes Universal Reconciliation, Universal Salvation, Serpent seed, Dual Seed or Two-Seedline doctrine which are only allowed in the 1 on 1 Debate Forum."
 
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