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Did God Chose you or did you chose God

Butch5, from now on I'll use the term "earthly things are a shadow of the heavenly" instead, OK? :squinting

I spent a half hour putting my heart into a post to honestly answer your question in good faith, so forget about it.


Here, maybe this will help:

John 6:63 "The WORDS that I SPEAK to you are SPIRIT, and they are life."
I wasn't dismissing your post. Believe me I know what it is to put hours into a post to have it dismissed. I am trying to understand how you are differentiating what you call "spiritually speaking" from any other kind of speaking or communicating. You gave the example of earthly things being a shadow of the heavenly, I don't see how that explains the "spiritually speaking" statement. Maybe I'm just missing something, I don't know, I was just trying to understand what you meant. When Christians use the word spiritual many times they have their own definition of the word and you wind up in a discussion where two people are using the same word differently. I wanted to avoid that.
 
Do you not think God knew you before he formed you?

What I think doesn't matter. I can't form doctrine on what I think. I have to form doctrine on what the Scriptures actually say. One of the reasons there are so many denominations out there is from people forming doctrines based on what they think rather than on what the Scriptures say.
 
What I think doesn't matter. I can't form doctrine on what I think. I have to form doctrine on what the Scriptures actually say. One of the reasons there are so many denominations out there is from people forming doctrines based on what they think rather than on what the Scriptures say.

Your beliefs only allows you to go but so far. This does not make either of us lesser Christians.
"Believers must fully accept other believers with whom they disagree without trying to change them"! Believers are in process.
 
Your beliefs only allows you to go but so far. This does not make either of us lesser Christians.
"Believers must fully accept other believers with whom they disagree without trying to change them"! Believers are in process.

Believers in what? Many Christians believe things that are not Christian. Your statement assumes that all believers believe what is correct and that they are just at different stages of development. However, a quick survey of modern Christian beliefs will show that quite a bit of what is believed is in fact not of Christian origin.
 
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Originally posted by Butch5,

I don't see how that explains the "spiritually speaking" statement. Maybe I'm just missing something, I don't know, I was just trying to understand what you meant. When Christians use the word spiritual many times they have their own definition of the word and you wind up in a discussion where two people are using the same word differently. I wanted to avoid that.

No worries. ;) But I'll give it another shot and try to explain a bit more.


If I were to define "spiritually speaking" I would simply say that it means to take a physical event or set of circumstances in the Bible and discern it's "spiritual" parallel. Another way to define it is simply "understanding types."

For example; "spiritually speaking", Joseph was a "type" of Christ. Spiritually speaking, the crossing of the Red Sea symbolized Baptism. Entering the Promised Land was symbolic of our initial Salvation in Christ. Spiritually speaking, the reason Moses wasn't permitted to enter the Promised Land is because Moses represented The Law, and Salvation cannot be obtained by following the Mosaic Law. And it was Joshua (Jesus) instead, who led them (us) into the Promised Land. Spiritually speaking, the enemies within the Land of Canaan represented the "carnal, worldly enemies" within us that must be conquered as we progress in our walk in Christ.

These are basic "physical" things which have a "spiritual" parallel or type. That is what I mean by "spiritually speaking."

Here's another. We all know the actual "physical" story of Daniel and the Lion's Den:


Daniel 6:16 "Then the king commanded, and they brought Daniel, and cast him into the den of lions. Now the king spoke and said unto Daniel, Thy God whom thou servest continually, he will deliver thee.
Daniel 6:17 And a stone was brought, and laid upon the mouth of the den; and the king sealed it with his own signet, and with the signet of his lords; that the purpose might not be changed concerning Daniel.
Daniel 6:18 Then the king went to his palace, and passed the night fasting: neither were instruments of music brought before him: and his sleep went from him.
Daniel 6:19 Then the king arose very early in the morning, and went in haste unto the den of lions.
Daniel 6:20 And when he came to the den, he cried with a lamentable voice unto Daniel: and the king spoke and said to Daniel, O Daniel, servant of the living God, is thy God, whom thou servest continually, able to deliver thee from the lions?
Daniel 6:21 Then Daniel said to the king, “O king, live forever!
Daniel 6:22 My God sent His angel and shut the lions' mouths, so that they have not hurt me, because I was found innocent before Him; and also, O king, I have done no wrong before you.”
Daniel 6:23 Now the king was exceedingly glad for him, and commanded that they should take Daniel up out of the den. So Daniel was taken up out of the den, and no injury whatever was found on him, because he believed in his God."


What is this event/situation represent "spiritually?"

Lions normally eat flesh. They are "CARNivores" - carnal beasts. Remember what Peter told us:

1 Peter 5:8 "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring LION, seeking whom he may devour."

When we live according to the 'flesh' does it not draw out the beast nature? I'm assuming the lions in this account of Daniel's testing would have been hungry (when are they not?). However, they did not attack and kill Daniel. Why?

".....your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring LION"

The Lions saw no flesh in Daniel before them "because I was found innocent before Him." Daniel "served his God continually" Lions EAT FLESH! When one puts on the MIND OF CHRIST, the carnal, fleshly ways of the natural man are "put away" and the LIONS (devil) has nothing to feed on.

Jesus said,

John 14:30 "......for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me."

There was "no flesh" in Jesus for the ruler of this world (the devil - i.e. - Lion) to feed on. Jesus walked "in the Spirit."



Remember what the Lord said to the serpent:

Genesis 3:14 "So the Lord God said to the serpent:

'Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.'"


"You shall EAT DUST."

We (flesh) are made of the dust:

Ecclesiastes 3:20 "All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again."

And notice in Genesis 3:14 (above) that the serpent "shall eat dust" i.e. - EAT FLESH, as a "roaring LION, seeking whom he may devour."


When putting on the Mind of Christ, we live according to the Spirit, not the flesh, and the devil "has nothing in us."

Pretty cool, huh?

Anyway, I'll use different terminology from now on, I promise. :D
 
No worries. ;) But I'll give it another shot and try to explain a bit more.


If I were to define "spiritually speaking" I would simply say that it means to take a physical event or set of circumstances in the Bible and discern it's "spiritual" parallel. Another way to define it is simply "understanding types."

For example; "spiritually speaking", Joseph was a "type" of Christ. Spiritually speaking, the crossing of the Red Sea symbolized Baptism. Entering the Promised Land was symbolic of our initial Salvation in Christ. Spiritually speaking, the reason Moses wasn't permitted to enter the Promised Land is because Moses represented The Law, and Salvation cannot be obtained by following the Mosaic Law. And it was Joshua (Jesus) instead, who led them (us) into the Promised Land. Spiritually speaking, the enemies within the Land of Canaan represented the "carnal, worldly enemies" within us that must be conquered as we progress in our walk in Christ.

These are basic "physical" things which have a "spiritual" parallel or type. That is what I mean by "spiritually speaking."

Here's another. We all know the actual "physical" story of Daniel and the Lion's Den:


Daniel 6:16 "Then the king commanded, and they brought Daniel, and cast him into the den of lions. Now the king spoke and said unto Daniel, Thy God whom thou servest continually, he will deliver thee.
Daniel 6:17 And a stone was brought, and laid upon the mouth of the den; and the king sealed it with his own signet, and with the signet of his lords; that the purpose might not be changed concerning Daniel.
Daniel 6:18 Then the king went to his palace, and passed the night fasting: neither were instruments of music brought before him: and his sleep went from him.
Daniel 6:19 Then the king arose very early in the morning, and went in haste unto the den of lions.
Daniel 6:20 And when he came to the den, he cried with a lamentable voice unto Daniel: and the king spoke and said to Daniel, O Daniel, servant of the living God, is thy God, whom thou servest continually, able to deliver thee from the lions?
Daniel 6:21 Then Daniel said to the king, “O king, live forever!
Daniel 6:22 My God sent His angel and shut the lions' mouths, so that they have not hurt me, because I was found innocent before Him; and also, O king, I have done no wrong before you.”
Daniel 6:23 Now the king was exceedingly glad for him, and commanded that they should take Daniel up out of the den. So Daniel was taken up out of the den, and no injury whatever was found on him, because he believed in his God."


What is this event/situation represent "spiritually?"

Lions normally eat flesh. They are "CARNivores" - carnal beasts. Remember what Peter told us:

1 Peter 5:8 "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring LION, seeking whom he may devour."

When we live according to the 'flesh' does it not draw out the beast nature? I'm assuming the lions in this account of Daniel's testing would have been hungry (when are they not?). However, they did not attack and kill Daniel. Why?

".....your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring LION"

The Lions saw no flesh in Daniel before them "because I was found innocent before Him." Daniel "served his God continually" Lions EAT FLESH! When one puts on the MIND OF CHRIST, the carnal, fleshly ways of the natural man are "put away" and the LIONS (devil) has nothing to feed on.

Jesus said,

John 14:30 "......for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me."

There was "no flesh" in Jesus for the ruler of this world (the devil - i.e. - Lion) to feed on. Jesus walked "in the Spirit."



Remember what the Lord said to the serpent:

Genesis 3:14 "So the Lord God said to the serpent:

'Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.'"


"You shall EAT DUST."

We (flesh) are made of the dust:

Ecclesiastes 3:20 "All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again."

And notice in Genesis 3:14 (above) that the serpent "shall eat dust" i.e. - EAT FLESH, as a "roaring LION, seeking whom he may devour."


When putting on the Mind of Christ, we live according to the Spirit, not the flesh, and the devil "has nothing in us."

Pretty cool, huh?

Anyway, I'll use different terminology from now on, I promise. :D


OK, thanks! Now I udnerstand what you were saying. I don't necessarily agree but I do understand what it is you're getting at.
 
The two most important dates in our lives is our birthdays! The first birthday is when we are born into this world. The second birthday is when we became born again to become a Christian. "It's not what you believe in your head, it's what you believe in your heart".

"Faith" refers not directly to one's belief but to one's convictions about what that faith allows him or her to do".
 
The two most important dates in our lives is our birthdays! The first birthday is when we are born into this world. The second birthday is when we became born again to become a Christian. "It's not what you believe in your head, it's what you believe in your heart".

"Faith" refers not directly to one's belief but to one's convictions about what that faith allows him or her to do".

It depends on what that faith is in.
 
The heart of belief is a granting from God as is the heart of unbelief.

I don't know if anyone else would consider it quite far beyond the norm for a massive amount of Israelites to be drawn out of Egypt, shown numerous miracles, and still end up dying in the desert because of what? UNbelief.

Did they hear the Gospel? Hebrews says yes, they did:

Hebrews 3:

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Jude 1:
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

God tells them straight up and to their own faces why this was so:

Deuteronomy 29:4
Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

It's quite astounding when pondered. Even in Israel, not even seeing people healed, seeing the dead raised, witnessing devils cast out, etc etc, could change their unbelief!

Does that indicate to anyone the power of God in granting or not granting such hearts?

Abraham said as much to the 'rich man.' Even were someone to return from the dead, they STILL would not be persuaded.

Can anyone spell 'locked in stubbornness' and say it is NOT of the Lord?

It is a miracle they did not believe after witnessing all those things.

Yet people will still just rather blame man, than to give these matters closer inspections.

s
 
The heart of belief is a granting from God as is the heart of unbelief.

Deuteronomy 29:4
Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

It's quite astounding when pondered. Even in Israel, not even seeing people healed, seeing the dead raised, witnessing devils cast out, etc etc, could change their unbelief!

Does that indicate to anyone the power of God in granting or not granting such hearts?

Abraham said as much to the 'rich man.' Even were someone to return from the dead, they STILL would not be persuaded.

Can anyone spell 'locked in stubbornness' and say it is NOT of the Lord?


Precisely. :thumbsup

Luke 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
Luke 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.



This is in complete accord with Matthew 13:11: "…To them it is not given…to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God."

This 'blindness of Israel' referred to by Christ here in Matthew 13 is quoted from Isaiah 6:9-10 and is repeated again and again in the other gospels (Matthew 4:11; Luke 8:10; and John 12:40) and throughout Paul's epistles (Romans 11:8, etc.).

Why do people reject Christ? Why does Israel reject their Messiah?

Matthew 13:11 "Because…to them it is NOT GIVEN…to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven."

Who blinds them to this vital knowledge? What are we told? Are we told anywhere in the pages of scripture that because of the stubborn will of the chief priests and elders and because of the stubborn will of the multitudes, Israel ends up refusing their invitation to the marriage supper of the Lamb? No, we are not told such a thing.

Here is what we are told.

Acts 4:27 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together
Acts 4:28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done."



Just how far does this "Your purpose determined before to be done" go? Does it go no further than man's free will permits? Could Judas, the chief priests and elders, Pilate or the multitude possibly have of their own free will chosen not to destroy Christ?

Will we believe what a church tradition tells us or will the word of God have pre-eminence for us? Here is what the scriptures teach from Genesis to Revelation:

Ephesians 1:9 "Having made known to us the mystery of HIS WILL, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works ALL THINGS according to the counsel of HIS WILL."



"ALL THINGS" means ALL!


In truth, when "God draws you to Christ" (John 6:44) NO ONE can resist, and NO ONE can reject Him out of stubbornness. It is true God does not force us to do anything, the Truth is:

Romans 2:4 "...the goodness of God LEADETH thee to repentance"

Any choice that we make is a CAUSED CHOICE, caused by 'Him who worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL.'

God is the potter and we, mankind, are all the lump of clay (Romans 9:21). A potter does not force the clay to do anything; he 'leads' it, he forms it.


The account of Saul is for our admonition. Saul as a zealous young church leader had consented to the stoning of righteous Stephen. He was constantly "breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord" (Acts 9:1). But the goodness of God led Saul to repentance. Is Saul's own will free of the forming and leading of the Potter? Of course not. Could Saul's stubbornness (which was greater than anyone's) resist God's call? Of course not! Neither can anyone. To say otherwise is contrary to scripture and is a false teaching.

No one can resist God's Will. If someone has rejected Christ, or is not in Christ, God has NOT called that person, PERIOD. A minister at a revival may have called or invited that person to accept Christ, but not God. If God "draws" a person, that person WILL follow Christ, and will from that point on, be "in Christ." No amount of stubborn will on man's part can resist.

Isaiah 14:27 "For the LORD of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?"

Proverbs 21:1 "The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord as the rivers of water: He turneth it whithersoever He will."

Philippians 2:13 "it is God who is operating in us to WILL and to DO HIS good pleasure."
 
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Hi Osgiliath,

If my understanding is correct, you are saying God can and does withhold from us the means to do what is right. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

My question is, how does one avoid blaming God for, well, 'leading us into temptation' as it were?

Given our human nature, that's how we would perceive it and anger against God would seem very legitimate under those circumstances. It would take God's grace to not curse God and die, I think. If so, is this grace withheld too?
 
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The gospel of GOD concerning His Son...

It's certainly wondrous to talk about the differences between OT ordinances under the Law of Moses.. as compared to NT principles with respect to the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ...

Because imo there are staggering differences between these two covenants.. and yet all in Adam since the fall, are simply justified by FAITH in God..

And there are multitudes of men justified by their faith in God in the OT.. just are there are multitudes of men justified by Faith in God IN CHRIST, in the NT.

Since the CROSSroad of CHRIST, man is now justified in his repentance toward God, and by his faith toward the LORD JESUS CHRIST.

This is vitally important of course... it's the Gospel of God's Son, which is unto obedience to all nations...

The Apostle to the Gentiles could not be more clear in his revelation of the gospel as it is written in the book of Romans.. how that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile and that we're all under the same condemnation.. and that it's been that way, ever since the FIRST Adam.. because DEATH has passed upon ALL MEN..

That's the bottom line for all of us.. for the wages of sin is DEATH, and the gift of God is eternal LIFE through the LAST Adam, the second man, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Can't you hear God in the garden calling that first Adam.. ?

I certainly can.. and we know that He is that TRUE light which lighteth EVERY MAN that comes into the world...

There's no partiality with God.. and there's no change to His judgment upon all of us in our natural Adamic nature.. according to the gospel we're condemned ALREADY if we do not believe God's testimony concerning His Son.. because there are mountains of evidence concerning His righteousness and our justification through it.. just as there is now the HOLY SPIRIT sent into the WORLD to convince it of these matters... which are for ever settled in heaven.

This is the GOSPEL..

It shouldn't be that complicated.. there is simplicity in Christ and in His (final) word on all these matters..

So how is any man justified today.. ?

By being convinced of his sin, and by being convinced of the righteousness of God through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.. and by TRUSTING in HIM, for the forgiveness of his sins.. iow.. simply by BELIEVING the TRUTH..

The simple TRUTH about who we are, and who HE IS..

God is not calling certain individuals... He is calling every last one of us to REPENTANCE and FAITH.. and it's the GOODNESS OF GOD toward every last one of us in His doing so.

Isn't it that simple ?
 
The CHOSEN ONE of GOD...

IMO it should be obvious as to WHO God's ELECT actually IS...

Because the GOSPEL of Matthew 12:18 makes a direct quote from Isaiah 42 which speaks of His CHOSEN One.. Mine Elect..

Any guesses WHO that might be..?

That's right.. the Lord Jesus Christ..

He is the Chosen ONE of God, the ONE in WHOM the FATHER delights !

So what's all this talk about being the ELECT.. are we or are we not the elect ?

Any person IN CHRIST is the elect of God, because they are a member of the BODY of CHRIST.. and of course HE IS the Chosen one of God.. so yes, any member of His body is certainly the elect... although it's not because they 'were' the elect, but rather simply because they 'are' IN CHRIST, the one and only one who is the ELECT of God.

For there is salvation in no other name, than that for ever blessed name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And His church is His future bride to be... an event we cannot even begin to understand.. and of course that was His election from the foundation of the world.. all foretold in miraculous living detail..

The Lord also loves ISRAEL.. and there are seemingly countless OT saints justified by their faith in God, even while being under the LAW of Moses... and according to Peter.. they're still in their graves.. just as King David is.. even unto this day..

Because THAT DAY has not yet come... the DAY of the LORD, the DAY of JESUS CHRIST...

Although it's coming.. as a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child.. and it's an absolute biblical certainty.

Did you know what else is directly connected to His coming in that DAY... ?

You guessed it...

The RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD...

Because He told us clearly that the resurrection will occur at the LAST DAY...

And that's the DAY OF the LORD, the DAY OF JESUS CHRIST..

The Apostle to the circumcision tells us to not be ignorant of this one thing.. that a Day with the LORD is as a thousand years.. and a thousand years as one day.

And it's all written in miraculous detail.. and it is witnessed by the OT prophets, and the Apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
things which shall be hereafter...

Peter, the Apostle to the circumcision... makes an astounding statement about the Day of the Lord.. the Day of Jesus Christ..

He writes that in that day the elements will even be burned up with fervent heat... amazing to say the least..

And of course Revelation 20 tells us precisely when this will actually happen.. in that Day.. and it's at the END of the thousand years.. when FIRE comes down from Heaven, from God..

Amazing things which shall be hereafter...
 
Hi Osgiliath,

If my understanding is correct, you are saying God can and does withhold from us the means to do what is right. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

My question is, how does one avoid blaming God for, well, 'leading us into temptation' as it were?

Given our human nature, that's how we would perceive it and anger against God would seem very legitimate under those circumstances. It would take God's grace to not curse God and die, I think. If so, is this grace withheld too?

our nature is what gets us in trouble. God said My ways are not your ways My thought are not your thoughts
God is always loving. There is good and evil in this world. We should not blame God for evil. God does allow Satan to hurt people. We who belong to the Lord will be hated for His Name sake. They hated Him first.
Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
-All things that happen, good or bad are for the good to those who love the Lord.
Sometimes it takes a lifetime of hurt and pain that brings us closer to Him, to those who believe in Him.
Jesus said ask and it shall be given, seek and ye shall find, knock and the door will be open.
it's a continuos process we do not stop asking seeking or knocking....He is alway there abundunduntly loving
he never promisses riches, but peace and joy... our riches are in heaven
 
Precisely. :thumbsup

Why do people reject Christ? Why does Israel reject their Messiah?

Matthew 13:11 "Because…to them it is NOT GIVEN…to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven."

Who blinds them to this vital knowledge? What are we told? Are we told anywhere in the pages of scripture that because of the stubborn will of the chief priests and elders and because of the stubborn will of the multitudes, Israel ends up refusing their invitation to the marriage supper of the Lamb? No, we are not told such a thing.

Here is what we are told.

Acts 4:27 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together
Acts 4:28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done."

We are also advised quite clearly on exactly 'how' every form of spiritual blindness comes about in very precise fashions. And likewise almost every reader, even those who bow to Divine Superiority in these matters will in fact continue to reject this exact matter, even post salvation.

What power was Saul turned from? What power are we turned and ever to turn from in this present life? What was the 'source' of Saul's blindness and every single person there has ever lived source of blindness?

That is where one eventually gets led into for understandings. And this matter of fact was, is and will continue to be 'universally' REJECTED in and by any who are likewise blinded no matter what 'standard' they hold up. Even in the understandings that you and I may align ourselves with (which I generally agree with you on for the most part) these exact matters will STILL be almost 'universally' rejected.

Here is the power of blindness that only God can release anyone from. That 'release' is ONLY uncovered and able to be uncovered by God Himself. No 'man's Words' can do this as the Old Testament and it's people fully attest to:

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

This is THE LIGHT of Gods Word and Spirit, thee SOLE POWER power thereof that TURNS us away from that working.

No mere mortal is able in and of themselves to make that TURN.

Just how far does this "Your purpose determined before to be done" go? Does it go no further than man's free will permits? Could Judas, the chief priests and elders, Pilate or the multitude possibly have of their own free will chosen not to destroy Christ?

Will we believe what a church tradition tells us or will the word of God have pre-eminence for us? Here is what the scriptures teach from Genesis to Revelation:

Ephesians 1:9 "Having made known to us the mystery of HIS WILL, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works ALL THINGS according to the counsel of HIS WILL."


"ALL THINGS" means ALL!

In truth, when "God draws you to Christ" (John 6:44) NO ONE can resist, and NO ONE can reject Him out of stubbornness. It is true God does not force us to do anything, the Truth is:

Romans 2:4 "...the goodness of God LEADETH thee to repentance"

Any choice that we make is a CAUSED CHOICE, caused by 'Him who worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL.'

God is the potter and we, mankind, are all the lump of clay (Romans 9:21). A potter does not force the clay to do anything; he 'leads' it, he forms it.
Paul intimates these matters quite thoroughly throughout his writings, even still admitting remaining in effect a 'carrier' and 'holder' of the very darkness that he was turned from. It's one of the most difficult matters in the text to come to grips and terms with.

Yet the simplicity of it is stated outright and openly by Jesus as a fact. And again, likewise, everyone who reads this fact will almost instantly and 'universally' REJECT His Counsel in this matter. It is the source of ALL dispute within the text and also the KEY that unlocks every last parable and allegory in the text:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

This is HOW all people on the face of this planet were blinded
and how they ALL continue to be both in blindness and in perpetual contentions. Take this fact back to Adam and you will SEE by Jesus' Words exactly what happened to him the instant Gods Words of blessings were sown upon him in the Garden. And you can take it to be a fact for every blinded person since.

And the phenomena does not cease upon belief. It is a matter that we 'all' down to the last one of us come into contention with not only every time we pick up the text to understand same, but in everyday life all around us and IN us. Few will see it for themselves. Most will reject at this juncture of that matter being 'personal' to them, post salvation.

When we 'witness' for example, understanding this fact, who are we speaking to? It is not just the person, but the power of Satan that holds them fast and bound. And we pray for God to grant us a TRUTHFUL witness, knowing that it is only HIS POWER that is able to release that covering.

The account of Saul is for our admonition. Saul as a zealous young church leader had consented to the stoning of righteous Stephen. He was constantly "breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord" (Acts 9:1). But the goodness of God led Saul to repentance. Is Saul's own will free of the forming and leading of the Potter? Of course not. Could Saul's stubbornness (which was greater than anyone's) resist God's call? Of course not! Neither can anyone. To say otherwise is contrary to scripture and is a false teaching.

No one can resist God's Will. If someone has rejected Christ, or is not in Christ, God has NOT called that person, PERIOD. A minister at a revival may have called or invited that person to accept Christ, but not God. If God "draws" a person, that person WILL follow Christ, and will from that point on, be "in Christ." No amount of stubborn will on man's part can resist.

Isaiah 14:27 "For the LORD of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?"

Proverbs 21:1 "The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord as the rivers of water: He turneth it whithersoever He will."

Philippians 2:13 "it is God who is operating in us to WILL and to DO HIS good pleasure."
It would be quite pointless to view only Saul in the above equations would it not?

There was Saul, the blinded killing zealot, but IMPELLING him to do what he did was also the power of SATAN.

Saul alone then? Assuredly NOT.

There was Saul, there was Satan, and there is ALWAYS the Will of God as the Overseer of ALL THINGS. These 3 are the combinations and dynamic of everything that transpires.

s
 
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Originally posted by smaller,

It would be quite pointless to view only Saul in the above equations would it not?


Indeed. Saul is such a "clear" example for our instruction, but it applies to everyone in Adam................eventually.
 
Indeed. Saul is such a "clear" example for our instruction, but it applies to everyone in Adam................eventually.

And likewise 'numerous' showings of the same matters throughout the text of the first/carnal/elder/natural sons in each case showing the falling or diminishing of the first man and the uplifting of the younger.

Adam: Cain and Abel
Abraham: Ishmael and Isaac
Isaac: Esau and Jacob
Jacob, himself divided and turned to Israel, an exact picture of our own 'internal' wrestling match.
Joseph: Manasseh and Ephraim
Moses: Gershom and Eliezer

Abram to Abraham, Cephas to Peter, Saul to Paul.

And on and on it goes, shown to every eye seeing in faith and spiritual understandings. The 'wrestling match' of the house of Jacob is on every man being uncovered from his holder of darkness, blinding the carnal man.

Jacob came before his father cloaked as a deceiver, and WAS BLESSED by Divine Providence.

When he subsequently 'laid hands' on the children of Joseph, he guided same wittingly...

So we all likewise come through the house of Jacob in understandings.

But then again who really sees to these things in the first place? They are set to light type, yet remain buried in darkness. God raises two men from the dust. Only one carries on into Him. The other is doomed to destruction.

Paul did not deem these matters our 'light' affliction for no reason...;)

s
 

do you have a choice the the matter

this is a controversial subject

We are proven to be unable to fully choose God. That's why we are captive to sin and Satan and thus need to be saved. If up to our freewill we can choose God, and obey the Law we shall not be captive. It's God who chooses to save us. Only the other hand, we need to put our faith in Him and repent.
 
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