Did God Chose you or did you chose God

[Eventide]

We love Him... because He first loved us...

Another miraculous truth of the gospel of God's Son is that He wins the hearts and minds of men.. He doesn't force a thing.. and when men are convicted of the truth they willingly lay down their life for His infinitely glorious life..

IMO fatalistic and deterministic thinking completely misses the unsearchable glory of His redemption through His great love and precious shed blood... to say that men are not making conscious mind and heartfelt decisions to either receive or reject His grace are severely underestimating His creation.. who can reason, and think, and even lay down their life if they had to.. especially for a son or a daughter, or a wife.. or even a friend..

How much more would God's Son know what that's like.. and desire to bring us back to His Father.. and then to think of our sin with respect to His unknown sufferings on that cross... we can't even begin to understand..

Only He could count that cost...

Think about the cost of our redemption...

And when men believe the truth.. they can only bow down and call upon His glorious name.. and God seals each and every one with His Holy Spirit of promise.. they're now a member of the body of Christ.. of the church of God.. sealed in advance with the earnest of our inheritance in Him.. unto the praise of His glory... and unto that Day.. the Day of Jesus Christ...

He that hath begun a good work in you will perform it, even until the Day of Jesus Christ.. that's our faith, our hope, and our love.. for Him..

 

[Butch5]

What is the issue at hand? Address each of the passages, one by one - in context.

Since you posted them why not explain how they support what it is you believe they say?

 

[Butch5]

Ephesians 1
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship[c] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will

Hi Robert,

In this passage Paul is giving praise to God for the things He's done for Israel in the past. This is not speaking of Christians, the context and the grammar do not allow for it.

 

[Butch5]

As an individual? Yes, God saved His son Adam. But spiritually speaking, it is the carnal, sinful "adamic nature" that will be destroyed within everyone. Looking at this "spiritually," there are only two "people" on this Earth - "the first Adam" and "the last Adam." A given person is in one or the other.


Again, as a person, of course. But spiritually speaking, Moses not entering the promised land was a parable; a "shadow" of a greater spiritual truth. Moses typifies "The Law." And the point is that "The Law of Moses" will NOT get you into "the promised land" (salvation). It is rather, only through Christ.

What does "spiritually speaking" mean?

 

[Butch5]

Hi Robert Hern,

The pride of man says, 'I chose God,' but to humble man, God informs us that, "I chose you..."

John 15:16

New King James Version (NKJV)

16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

I think the qualifications that God uses in saving individuals should be left in the hands of His righteousness.

John 3:8

New King James Version (NKJV)

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.â€

- Davies

What did He choose them for? Didn't He say, "I chose you that you should bear much fruit?"

 

[Butch5]

God said he knew you before you were formed in your mothers womb. You see we once walked with God in heaven. God chose you to come into this world. He loved you then and he loves you now.

God said He knew Jeremiah before He formed him in the womb. I don't think you can make a case for your other statement.

 

[Butch5]

Our Spirits were once with God in heaven.

Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” John 8:56-58

Where was Abraham at the time?

It's because Christ appeared to Abraham when Abraham was alive.

 

[Eventide]

The marriage of the Lamb (of God), to His wife.. the church of God..

Perhaps the most glorious story you'll ever hear, which speaks all about this very topic.. is the living and powerful story of Abraham and his only begotten son, Isaac..

He and his father had just come down from the mountain where God was to provide a Lamb..

Then Sarah (perhaps a type of Israel, Abraham's barren wife).. dies..

And what does Abraham do..?

He sends his eldest servant to find a wife for his only begotten son, Isaac..

The story has foretold the story and continues to tell the miraculous story whenever we take it in to our mind and our heart.. and so read it.. again and again.. and imo all of the answers to our questions are indeed, for ever settled in Heaven.

 

[Robert Hern]

In my case, the Lord first made his presence known to me, not the other way around.

mister E, I also experienced His Presence at the age of 9
it is good to know and humbling of your experience

 

[Butch5]

In my case, the Lord first made his presence known to me, not the other way around.

He does that with everyone. John writes,

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (Joh 1:4-9 KJV)

 

[Robert Hern]

Hi Robert,

In this passage Paul is giving praise to God for the things He's done for Israel in the past. This is not speaking of Christians, the context and the grammar do not allow for it.

if it is from the past why is pauls saying "He Chose Us" isn't he speaking in the present tense

 

[Robert Hern]

He does that with everyone. John writes,

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (Joh 1:4-9 KJV)

John 12
18 Many people, because they had heard that he had performed this sign, went out to meet him.
19 So the Pharisees said to one another, “See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!”

when Jesus made His grand entrance
on a donkey was the whole world following Him?

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Butch5,

What do "spiritually speaking" mean?

It means that physical things are "shadows" of heavenly things. I can give you some examples:

Hebrews 8:3 "Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer.
Hebrews 8:4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law.
Hebrews 8:5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain."

And,

Hebrews 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
Hebrews 3:5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

1 Corinthians 3:16 "Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1 Corinthians 3:17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple YOU ARE."

The house of Jesus Christ/body of Christ is being built today on a firm foundation (Eph 2:20). The building of the house of Moses is a type of Christ. The "physical" temple is a shadow; i.e - it symbolizes the true "spiritual" Temple (which YOU ARE). So, "spiritually speaking" the Temple made of bricks and stone represents the true "spiritual" Temple.

Here is another example:

Consider the healing given here in Mark 8.

Mark 8:22 "And they come unto Bethsaida. And they bring to him a blind man, and beseech him to touch him.
Mark 8:23 And he took hold of the blind man by the hand, and brought him out of the village; and when he had spit on his eyes, and laid his hands upon him, he asked him, Seest thou aught?
Mark 8:24 And he looked up, and said, I see men; for I behold them as trees, walking.
Mark 8:25 Then again he laid his hands upon his eyes; and he looked stedfastly, and was restored, and saw all things clearly."


Physical sight symbolizes spiritual 'sight' and spiritual knowledge (i.e. - "SPIRITUALLY SPEAKING" physical sight is actually referring to spiritual sight). That story was put there in God's Word just to let us know that spiritual vision is a life-long process which is not accomplished in a ten second sinner's prayer.

We all "behold men as trees" under which we can find shade and be nourished of their fruit, while we are "Yet carnal... babes in Christ." It take many years for most of us to come to see men as the sons of God, and not "after the flesh." Babes in Christ, still know Christ only "after the flesh."

Daniel 4:10 "Thus were the visions of my head upon my bed: I saw, and, behold, a tree in the midst of the earth; and the height thereof was great.
Daniel 4:11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth.
Daniel 4:12 The leaves thereof were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was food for all: the beasts of the field had shadow under it, and the birds of the heavens dwelt in the branches thereof, and all flesh was fed from it."

2 Corinthians 5:16 "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more."

1 Corinthians 3:1 "And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1 Corinthians 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1 Corinthians 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?"

That is how we "behold men as trees walking".........spiritually speaking. :wink3

 

[Butch5]

if it is from the past why is pauls saying "He Chose Us" isn't he speaking in the present tense

He's speaking as a Jew. God had chosen the Jewish people to be the ones through which He would fulfill His promises to Abraham. In verse 3-12 there are statements that apply to Israel and not the Gentile believers. For instance, in verse 11 Paul said we have obtained an inheritance. The Jews had received an inheritance from God the Gentiles did not. Paul goes on to say in verses 13-14 that the Gentiles have received a down payment on a future inheritance. Another example is verse 12 where Paul contrasts, "we who first trusted in Christ" with "13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation:" (Eph 1:13 KJV). It was the Jews who first trusted in Christ.

 

[Butch5]

John 12
18 Many people, because they had heard that he had performed this sign, went out to meet him.
19 So the Pharisees said to one another, “See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!”

when Jesus made His grand entrance
on a donkey was the whole world following Him?

There's a difference between using hyperbole to make a point and a specific statement. When John wrote his gospel he used the single form of panta. By doing so he is saying that every one of them is included. In the passage you quoted the word "whole" is not in the Greek text, it simply says the world has gone after Him. It is obviously a case of hyperbole. There is no reason to understand Johns words in John 1:9 as hyperbole. Firstly John uses the singular form, he doesn't use it collectively.

 

[Butch5]

It means that physical things are "shadows" of heavenly things. I can give you some examples:

Hebrews 8:3 "Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer.
Hebrews 8:4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law.
Hebrews 8:5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain."

And,

Hebrews 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
Hebrews 3:5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

1 Corinthians 3:16 "Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1 Corinthians 3:17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple YOU ARE."

The house of Jesus Christ/body of Christ is being built today on a firm foundation (Eph 2:20). The building of the house of Moses is a type of Christ. The "physical" temple is a shadow; i.e - it symbolizes the true "spiritual" Temple (which YOU ARE). So, "spiritually speaking" the Temple made of bricks and stone represents the true "spiritual" Temple.

Here is another example:

Consider the healing given here in Mark 8.

Mark 8:22 "And they come unto Bethsaida. And they bring to him a blind man, and beseech him to touch him.
Mark 8:23 And he took hold of the blind man by the hand, and brought him out of the village; and when he had spit on his eyes, and laid his hands upon him, he asked him, Seest thou aught?
Mark 8:24 And he looked up, and said, I see men; for I behold them as trees, walking.
Mark 8:25 Then again he laid his hands upon his eyes; and he looked stedfastly, and was restored, and saw all things clearly."


Physical sight symbolizes spiritual 'sight' and spiritual knowledge (i.e. - "SPIRITUALLY SPEAKING" physical sight is actually referring to spiritual sight). That story was put there in God's Word just to let us know that spiritual vision is a life-long process which is not accomplished in a ten second sinner's prayer.

We all "behold men as trees" under which we can find shade and be nourished of their fruit, while we are "Yet carnal... babes in Christ." It take many years for most of us to come to see men as the sons of God, and not "after the flesh." Babes in Christ, still know Christ only "after the flesh."

Daniel 4:10 "Thus were the visions of my head upon my bed: I saw, and, behold, a tree in the midst of the earth; and the height thereof was great.
Daniel 4:11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth.
Daniel 4:12 The leaves thereof were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was food for all: the beasts of the field had shadow under it, and the birds of the heavens dwelt in the branches thereof, and all flesh was fed from it."

2 Corinthians 5:16 "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more."

1 Corinthians 3:1 "And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1 Corinthians 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1 Corinthians 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?"

That is how we "behold men as trees walking".........spiritually speaking. :wink3

I'm still not sure what you mean by "spiritually speaking." I know that earthly things are a shadow of the heavenly, but what does that have to do with "spiritually speaking?"

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Butch5,

I'm still not sure what you mean by "spiritually speaking." I know that earthly things are a shadow of the heavenly, but what does that have to do with "spiritually speaking?"

Butch5, from now on I'll use the term "earthly things are a shadow of the heavenly" instead, OK? ing

I spent a half hour putting my heart into a post to honestly answer your question in good faith, so forget about it.


Here, maybe this will help:

John 6:63 "The WORDS that I SPEAK to you are SPIRIT, and they are life."

 

[iLOVE]

God said He knew Jeremiah before He formed him in the womb. I don't think you can make a case for your other statement.

Do you not think God knew you before he formed you?

 

[savedbygrace57]

carolyn

There are those who stubbornly resist God' gracious calling

Thats false, none can resist God's Call.

Or Acts
7:51 "You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You
always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do you." NKJV

That was not a gracious call to those men, Stephen preached to them their condemnation to uncircumcised heart reprbates !

Those whom God calls for Salvation He first gives them a circumcised heart and ears ! Rom 2:28-29

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[smaller]

Butch5, from now on I'll use the term "earthly things are a shadow of the heavenly"

Brilliant observation. Just brilliant. It always encourages me when others see that disclosure. Yes, it is a spiritual disclosure. Detailed and continually around us and in us, seeing, living, engaging.

God in Christ is quite alive and active every moment of every day.

s