Did God create hell?

[Grappler]

As I stated, no, it is not clear that they do. That's my whole point. It is a gray area. Firstly, there is biblical support that unbelievers will simply cease to exist. Secondly, there is also support that they will be in hell for eternity, but that they will not be in physical punishment for eternity.

It simply is not as clear as you are making it out to be. You simply cannot take two verses from the Bible as support for a certain doctrine and think you have proved something.

I just had to drop back in for a second and say Free you hit the nail on the head...you are absolutely correct it is a "gray" area...some people are just a little confused

 

[Free]

Show me the scriptures that say unbelievers will cease to exist or not be in physical punishment for eternity.

Degrees of physical punishment, indicating the punishment is finite:

Luk 12:45 But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
Luk 12:46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
Luk 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. (ESV)

Note that that does not mean unbelievers won't spend eternity in hell or that they will not be in some sort of torment--perhaps mental anguish over what could have been but instead what is. There is more than one way to define "torment," and people need to get the idea out of their heads that it means some sort of physical pain or torture.


Luk 17:28 Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot—they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building,
Luk 17:29 but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all—
Luk 17:30 so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed. (ESV)

2Pe 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; (ESV)

That is all I have time for at the moment. Suffice to say, if you look around this forum a bit, or the internet, you will find that there are some good arguments as to the annihilation of the unrighteous. As I said, both positions have support but they also have their problems. Hence, quite a grey area.

 

[Guest]

That is all I have time for at the moment. Suffice to say, if you look around this forum a bit, or the internet, you will find that there are some good arguments as to the annihilation of the unrighteous. As I said, both positions have support but they also have their problems. Hence, quite a grey area.

You missed the whole point completely Free, Luke is referring to people that are still alive. I'm talking about after you die! Who are they referring to when they say their and worms in Mark 9:48?

Show me the scriptures that say unbelievers will cease to exist or not be in physical punishment for eternity.

after you die!

 

[Free]

You missed the whole point completely Free, Luke is referring to people that are still alive. I'm talking about after you die! Who are they referring to when they say their and worms in Mark 9:48?



after you die!

No, I did not miss the point. It is clearly a parable of what will happen when Christ returns.

 

[Guest]

No, I did not miss the point. It is clearly a parable of what will happen when Christ returns.

Yes, you did miss the point. The parable is describing Jesus calling upon His disciples to wait, for although He will return to the earth, to rule over it as Messiah, it may be a considerable period of time before this happens. Our text implies that there will be a wait. History confirms this, for the church has been waiting nearly 2,000 years for His return. His prophets that are waiting in Luke are not dead yet! Unless you have scripture that backs that up.

 

[Free]

Yes, you did miss the point. The parable is describing Jesus calling upon His disciples to wait, for although He will return to the earth, to rule over it as Messiah, it may be a considerable period of time before this happens. Our text implies that there will be a wait. History confirms this, for the church has been waiting nearly 2,000 years for His return. His prophets that are waiting in Luke are not dead yet! Unless you have scripture that backs that up.

No, I did not miss the point. I'm not sure why you are mentioning waiting for Jesus' return and that those being spoken of in Luke are not dead, as they are very much part of the point. I'm not sure why you're not understanding this.

Look at the context of what Jesus is saying:

Luk 12:40 You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."
Luk 12:41 Peter said, "Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?"
Luk 12:42 And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time?
Luk 12:43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.
Luk 12:44 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.
Luk 12:45 But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
Luk 12:46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
Luk 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.
Luk 12:49 "I came to cast fire on the earth, and would that it were already kindled!
Luk 12:50 I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how great is my distress until it is accomplished! (ESV)

Jesus is very clearly using this parable to speak of himself and his return. At his return is when the punishment will be meted out. This is entirely consistent with everything the NT teaches about Jesus' return and the ensuing judgement.

 

[Guest]

No, I did not miss the point. I'm not sure why you are mentioning waiting for Jesus' return and that those being spoken of in Luke are not dead, as they are very much part of the point. I'm not sure why you're not understanding this.

Free, do you not see how you did a complete 180 on our conversation? It's obvious you did this. Go back to post #147. I'm still waiting for scripture that supports what you said here..

Firstly, there is biblical support that unbelievers will simply cease to exist. Secondly, there is also support that they will be in hell for eternity, but that they will not be in physical punishment for eternity.

Show me scripture that says unbelievers will cease to exist and not receive physical punishment for eternity. If you can't, just say so. Don't change the subject to the second coming of christ.

:silly

 

[WIP]

If the bible didn't have any gray areas then how in the world do you explain the thousands of different interpretations of the bible?

Sin entered.

 

[Free]

Free, do you not see how you did a complete 180 on our conversation? It's obvious you did this. Go back to post #147. I'm still waiting for scripture that supports what you said here..

Do not misrepresent what I have said. I have changed nothing in the conversation and if you can't see that, then it is a problem with your understanding. I have given Scripture in support.

Show me scripture that says unbelievers will cease to exist and not receive physical punishment for eternity. If you can't, just say so. Don't change the subject to the second coming of christ.

I haven't changed the subject as is clear to any reader of this thread. If you think I have changed the subject then, again, that is a problem with your understanding. Yet I cannot understand how you cannot understand something that is so plainly clear and simple.

The passage in Luke shows that unbelievers will receive varying levels of punishment and varying levels of punishment only leave one conclusion: that any physical punishment in hell will not be for eternity.

Paul implies that believers will receive varying levels of reward and Jesus implies that unbelievers will receive varying levels of punishment.

 

[Sparkey]

First, I think that somethings are not "clear" as evidenced by the phrase, "through a glass darkly," and would also point to the fact that there is much debate on the subject over a period of many years. This is sufficient evidence for me. Who am I to insist that within me (and not within you) remains the final and conclusive ability to resolve such things? But then, it occurs to me that perhaps there is a better way... Might I not try to prove that "hell" is eternal? Just to see where that goes? I liked the quoted portions below because they focused on what Jesus taught. Here then is a quote from an article entitled, "Hell: Eternal Torment OR Annihilation?" from chapter 4 of his book "Immortality or Resurrection" by Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D., Andrews University. I like the fact that it is posed as a question. The quote is a paragraph from the section sub-titled, "Jesus and Hell’s Fire." A foundational understanding of the meaning of "gehenna" was carefully laid prior to show the origins (and meaning) of the term:

What Is Hell–Gehenna?
Before looking at Christ’s references to hell–gehenna, we may find it helpful to consider the derivation of the word itself. The Greek word gehenna is a transliteration of the Hebrew "Valley of (the sons of) Hinnon," located south of Jerusalem. In ancient times, it was linked with the practice of sacrificing children to the god Molech (2 Kings 16:3; 2 Kings 21:6; 2 Kings 23:10). This earned it the name "Topheth," a place to be spit on or abhorred. This valley apparently became a gigantic pyre for burning the 185,000 corpses of Assyrian soldiers whom God slew in the days of Hezekiah (Isa 30:31-33; Isa 37:36).

Jeremiah predicted that the place would be called "the valley of Slaughter" because it would be filled with the corpses of the Israelites when God judged them for their sins. "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when it will no more be called Topheth, or the valley of Hinnom, but the valley of Slaughter: for they will bury in Topheth, because there is no room elsewhere. And the dead bodies of this people will be food for the beasts of the air, and for the beasts of the earth; and none will frighten them away" (Jer 7:32-33).

He goes on to say, "It is fair to say that, to those who first heard the Lord, gehenna would convey a sense of total horror and disgust. Beyond that, however, one must speak with extreme caution."

Jesus and Hell’s Fire.
With this note of caution, let us look at the seven references to gehenna–hell fire that we find in the Gospels. In The Sermon on the Mount, Jesus states that whoever says to his brother "‘you fool!’ shall be liable to the hell [gehenna] of fire" (Matt 5:22; KJV). Again, He said that it is better to pluck out the eye or cut off the hand that causes a person to sin than for the "whole body go into hell [gehenna] (Matt 5:29,30). The same thought is expressed later on: it is better to cut off a foot or a hand or pluck out an eye that causes a person to sin than to "be thrown into eternal fire . . . be thrown into the hell [gehenna] of fire" (Matt 18:8,9). Here the fire of hell is described as "eternal." The same saying is found in Mark, where Jesus three times says that it is better to cut off the offending organ than "to go to hell [gehenna], to the unquenchable fire . . . to be thrown into hell [gehenna], where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44,46,47-48). Elsewhere, Jesus chides the Pharisees for traversing sea and land to make a convert and then making him "twice as much a child of hell [gehenna]" (Matt 23:15). Finally, he warns the Pharisees that they will not "escape being sentenced to hell [gehenna]" (Matt 23:33).

The analysis of previous conversation continues and points out, "In reviewing Christ’s allusions to hell–gehenna, we should first note that none of them indicates that hell–gehenna is a place of unending torment. What is eternal or unquenchable is not the punishment, but the fire. We noted earlier that in the Old Testament this fire is eternal or unquenchable in the sense that it totally consumes dead bodies. This conclusion is supported by Christ’s warning that we should not fear human beings who can harm the body, but the One "who can destroy both soul and body in hell [gehenna]" (Matt 10:28). The implication is clear. Hell is the place of final punishment, which results in the total destruction of the whole being, soul and body."

Needless to say, much more than these few excerpts are covered in chapter four of the book. It is enough though for me to conclude (even from simply skimming the quoted parts) that the doctrine of "Hell" is not as clear as some may allege.

What about the thought that those who have not tasted the fruit of the Tree of Life are not condemned to eternal life (without God)? Isn't this a mercy? But I have begun an attempt to prove the teaching that this is not the case and would welcome assistance.

 

[Guest]

The passage in Luke shows that unbelievers will receive varying levels of punishment and varying levels of punishment only leave one conclusion: that any physical punishment in hell will not be for eternity.

You are adding to scripture what you want it to say. Prove to me using scripture that Luke is talking about hell and not people that are still alive. I'm not debating your conversation in Luke. It's just that your conversation about Luke has nothing to do with hell. Hell is a place unbelievers go after they die. The people that you are referring to in Luke are still alive. Jesus is teaching his prophets in Luke on how to wait for his return while they are still alive. Punishment while they are still alive!

Firstly, there is biblical support that unbelievers will simply cease to exist. Secondly, there is also support that they will be in hell for eternity, but that they will not be in physical punishment for eternity.

I'm still waiting on scripture that backs this up, what happens to unbelievers after they die, not while their still alive. You also are ignoring scriptures in Mark and Isaiah. If you think hell is without punishment and not for eternity, you are mistaken by ignoring Mark 9:48 & Isaiah 66:24

 

[Grappler]

Do not misrepresent what I have said. I have changed nothing in the conversation and if you can't see that, then it is a problem with your understanding. I have given Scripture in support.


I haven't changed the subject as is clear to any reader of this thread. If you think I have changed the subject then, again, that is a problem with your understanding. Yet I cannot understand how you cannot understand something that is so plainly clear and simple.

The passage in Luke shows that unbelievers will receive varying levels of punishment and varying levels of punishment only leave one conclusion: that any physical punishment in hell will not be for eternity.

Paul implies that believers will receive varying levels of reward and Jesus implies that unbelievers will receive varying levels of punishment.

Free...you are absolutely correct...but you might as well stop trying to convince urk that the unrighteous are not going to be screaming in agony for eternity...its almost as if he thinks that it is a requirement to believe that in order for him to be "saved". I think it could be a fear in some of people's mind that they think that if they don't believe in eternal torture that they might end up in eternal torture...it is kind of like a neurosis or something. The doctrine of eternal torture was and still is a great form of mind control.

 

[Free]

You are adding to scripture what you want it to say. Prove to me using scripture that Luke is talking about hell and not people that are still alive. I'm not debating your conversation in Luke. It's just that your conversation about Luke has nothing to do with hell. Hell is a place unbelievers go after they die. The people that you are referring to in Luke are still alive. Jesus is teaching his prophets in Luke on how to wait for his return while they are still alive. Punishment while they are still alive!

Here is the significant error with your counter-argument. You are complaining that the people in Luke are "still alive," as though that somehow means they cannot be in hell, yet you are arguing for eternal punishment in hell. Pray tell, do not people have to be alive in hell in order to be able to be punished for eternity? If you believe people are alive in hell for eternity, then you simply have no counter-argument.

The passage in Luke clearly has Jesus talking about his return and the subsequent punishment of those who didn't do what they were supposed to. The only time punishment happens or can happen after Jesus' return, is in hell.

I'm still waiting on scripture that backs this up, what happens to unbelievers after they die, not while their still alive. You also are ignoring scriptures in Mark and Isaiah. If you think hell is without punishment and not for eternity, you are mistaken by ignoring Mark 9:48 & Isaiah 66:24

I have given my support. Hasn't my point all along been that it is a gray area? Jesus clearly thinks that punishment isn't eternal, so be careful in being so sure that other passages appear to say that it is eternal.

 

[Free]

Free...you are absolutely correct...but you might as well stop trying to convince urk that the unrighteous are not going to be screaming in agony for eternity...its almost as if he thinks that it is a requirement to believe that in order for him to be "saved". I think it could be a fear in some of people's mind that they think that if they don't believe in eternal torture that they might end up in eternal torture...it is kind of like a neurosis or something. The doctrine of eternal torture was and still is a great form of mind control.

Well, to be sure, I am not completely dismissing the possibility of eternal torture in hell, since it is always possible, but rather that it appears that is not the case. As with most gray areas, even most things just having to do with Scripture, we need to be very careful in how strongly we believe a certain understanding to be true. We must always allow for a variety of possibilities, however improbable they may seem, but we had better have good support and reasoning for picking one over the rest.

 

[Guest]

Here is the significant error with your counter-argument. You are complaining that the people in Luke are "still alive," as though that somehow means they cannot be in hell, yet you are arguing for eternal punishment in hell. Pray tell, do not people have to be alive in hell in order to be able to be punished for eternity? If you believe people are alive in hell for eternity, then you simply have no counter-argument.

My argument is not that people are alive in Luke, because they clearly are. Rather my argument is based on the fact that Luke is NOT TALKING ABOUT HELL! You completely misinterpreted the whole parable. You still have not supported your argument with scripture that Luke refers to hell.

Free, it's not about how much or less you believe. The Word of God is exactly what it is. It's from God and of God. God has no flaws. Saying that there are gray areas is saying that prophets that wrote the Bible are false. Are you calling the writers of the Bible false prophets? Other scriptures in other gospels prove you wrong.

 

[Free]

My argument is not that people are alive in Luke, because they clearly are. Rather my argument is based on the fact that Luke is NOT TALKING ABOUT HELL! You completely misinterpreted the whole parable. You still have not supported your argument with scripture that Luke refers to hell.

When and where are people punished after Jesus returns?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I'm having trouble following all the "posted by" links. What passage in Luke are we talking about? If I may ask ...

 

[Free]

I'm having trouble following all the "posted by" links. What passage in Luke are we talking about? If I may ask ...

Luke 12:45-47. See my post #154 above.

 

[Guest]

When and where are people punished after Jesus returns?

When, is up to Jesus. We are talking about dead people who no longer walk the earth. Whether sinners in their grave that haven't repented and the righteous in their grave are still waiting upon judgement/or heaven and hell are filled up with sinners and the righteous right now, is not the point here. The argument here is if hell exists with punishment inside eternity. How, they are judged is in Mark 9:48. How is described by their worm that never dies and the fire that is not quenched. Eternity is also explain in Mark 9:48 - Lastly, if you think Mark 9:48 isn't talking about hell then God help you sir. What do they mean when they say their and worm??

 

[Free]

When, is up to Jesus. We are talking about dead people who no longer walk the earth. Whether sinners in their grave that haven't repented and the righteous in their grave are still waiting upon judgement/or heaven and hell are filled up with sinners and the righteous right now, is not the point here.

I know that. I have never argued otherwise. The point is what happens for eternity, so clearly we are not talking about now.

The argument here is if hell exists with punishment inside eternity.

And that is precisely what this discussion is about and what I have clearly been addressing. So, with that in mind, just as it always has been, I ask again: when and where are people punished after Jesus returns?