Did Jesus go to hell between his death and resurrection?

[chessman]

It seems you’re upset by the discussion, I’m sorry to hear that. It appears to me that this has struck a nerve and I hope there are no hard feelings, thanks for the discussion.

No, no. I'm not upset. I've just never been exposed to the Biblical arguments for soul sleep. At least by someone that seemed able to be objective and put forth the evidence, explanation and a willingness to consider an alternate view/Scripture as being the better view. Now I know how someone with your view does come at a text like John 8. For that, I'm grateful for your interaction on what Jesus was teaching them and the implication for what He was doing those three days. I disagree with your evaluation of Jesus' message to the Pharisees and the passages you've posted from the OT.

I'm willing to accept Scripture's message one way or the other. But you're not really making a case, in my mind for your view.

Other than pointing out that people's bodies die (even the most righteous one), which is obvious. (Texts or not)

But thanks again. We're just going in circles now so I'll stop.

 

[JLB]

Butch 5 said -

Let me say firstly that your conclusion that Abraham is alive in form must be brought to this text. There is nothing in this text to indicate that Abraham is alive in some form. One must already have that idea when coming to the text.

The idea that Abraham was alive, as an idea coming into this text is derived from these words of Jesus -

I speak what I have seen with My Father... John 8:38

What is it that Jesus has seen with His Father that would teach us Abraham is alive. He just got through telling the Pharisee's...You judge according to the flesh; John 8:15

In reading the previous book before John we see what Jesus has seen with the Father that is beyond the reasoning of the flesh -

As we see in Luke 16, a dialog between Abraham and the rich man

19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' " Luke 16:19-31

How could the rich man recognize Abraham afar off if Abraham has no form?


This is just one passage that Jesus displayed for us as He had seen with the Father, beyond the realm of the flesh.

Where one only see's that natural world and the things that live and die therein.

Because a person's body die's, does not mean they themselves are dead.

There is natural death of the human body and there is spiritual death of the human spirit and soul.

There is the first death and there is the second death.

To understand this is to rightly divide the word of truth.


JLB

 

[Butch5]

No, no. I'm not upset. I've just never been exposed to the Biblical arguments for soul sleep. At least by someone that seemed able to be objective and put forth the evidence, explanation and a willingness to consider an alternate view/Scripture as being the better view. Now I know how someone with your view does come at a text like John 8. For that, I'm grateful for your interaction on what Jesus was teaching them and the implication for what He was doing those three days. I disagree with your evaluation of Jesus' message to the Pharisees and the passages you've posted from the OT.

I'm willing to accept Scripture's message one way or the other. But you're not really making a case, in my mind for your view.

Other than pointing out that people's bodies die (even the most righteous one), which is obvious. (Texts or not)

But thanks again. We're just going in circles now so I'll stop.

Hi Chessman,

I didn't try make an argument for soul sleep. I also didn't try to make my argument from John 8. I simply posted a text from John 8 saying that Abraham was dead. This fact is confirmed by both Moses and Paul, yet somehow you've concluded that Jesus was telling the Pharisees that Abraham was not dead. I simply don't see how you can draw that conclusion based on the confirmation from the other authors.

The basis of my argument (which has not been refuted) is that man consists of a body and the breath/spirit of God as per Gen 2:7. Many have claimed that there is some part of man that lives on after death yet no one has shown from Scripture where this other part comes from, rather they've just inferred it's existence from certain passages which the believe are saying that.

You acknowledged that neither the Pharisees nor the Sadducees believed in a ghost that lives on after death. No matter what one thinks of them one has to wonder why they didn't believe in a ghost if that is what the Scriptures teach. They had the Scriptures for hundreds of years. Not all of the Jews were evil there were good Pharisees and Sadducees at times. There were good kings and priests at times. In all these hundreds of years of copying and studying the Scriptures they didn't come to the conclusion that man has a ghost that lives on after death. I think it's safe to say that the OT didn't teach that man has a ghost that lives on after death.

If the OT doesn't teach that man has a ghost that lives on after death why would Jesus teach such a thing?

 

[Butch5]

The idea that Abraham was alive, as an idea coming into this text is derived from these words of Jesus -

I speak what I have seen with My Father... John 8:38

What is it that Jesus has seen with His Father that would teach us Abraham is alive. He just got through telling the Pharisee's...You judge according to the flesh; John 8:15

In reading the previous book before John we see what Jesus has seen with the Father that is beyond the reasoning of the flesh -

As we see in Luke 16, a dialog between Abraham and the rich man

19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' " Luke 16:19-31

How could the rich man recognize Abraham afar off if Abraham has no form?


This is just one passage that Jesus displayed for us as He had seen with the Father, beyond the realm of the flesh.

Where one only see's that natural world and the things that live and die therein.

Because a person's body die's, does not mean they themselves are dead.

There is natural death of the human body and there is spiritual death of the human spirit and soul.

There is the first death and there is the second death.

To understand this is to rightly divide the word of truth.


JLB

With all due respect, you keep posting the same things over and over without addressing the texts. There's no point in my continuing to point this out.

 

[JLB]

With all due respect, you keep posting the same things over and over without addressing the texts. There's no point in my continuing to point this out.

By saying "Abraham is dead", are you reconciling the two deaths?

One which has to do with the human body.

When a person dies [physically] we say David died in a car accident last night, they have taken the body to the morgue for autopsy.

There they plan to examine his corpse for blood alcohol content.

There are not doing an autopsy on David, but rather his corpse.

David's body was being examined, not David himself.



There is natural death of the human body and there is spiritual death of the human spirit and soul.

There is the first death and there is the second death.

Do you agree or disagree with this statement?



JLB

 

[Butch5]

By saying "Abraham is dead", are you reconciling the two deaths?

One which has to do with the human body.

When a person dies [physically] we say David died in a car accident last night, they have taken the body to the morgue for autopsy.

There they plan to examine his corpse for blood alcohol content.

There are not doing an autopsy on David, but rather his corpse.

David's body was being examined, not David himself.



There is natural death of the human body and there is spiritual death of the human spirit and soul.

There is the first death and there is the second death.

Do you agree or disagree with this statement?



JLB

I disagree, the Scriptures don't differentiate. Death is death. The Scriptures don't speak of "spiritual death" that too is brought to the Scriptures. The first and second death are body physical bodily deaths. The first death is when we die in this lifetime the second death is of those who are resurrected and are judged unworthy of the kingdom of God, they are thrown into the lake of fire which is the second death.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Joh 5:26-29 KJV)

According to argument it is the body that is in the grave. Jesus said the graves will be opened and those who have done good will be raised to life and those who have done evil will raised to damnation. In both instances they are raised bodily and judged. Those who are wicked are cast into the Lake of Fire which is the second death.

 

[Sinthesis]

The basis of my argument (which has not been refuted) is that man consists of a body and the breath/spirit of God as per Gen 2:7. Many have claimed that there is some part of man that lives on after death yet no one has shown from Scripture where this other part comes from, rather they've just inferred it's existence from certain passages which the believe are saying that.

There is another way to look at Gen 2:7 where man is formed of dust, but doesn't become a living soul until given the breath of life. Absent the breath of life he is a man with a living body, but a dead soul: physically alive, spiritually dead. The difference is the type of breath that animates one's being; heavenly or earthly. Adam was both physically and spiritually alive until the fall, after which he was physically alive but spiritually dead. This is why Christ could instruct His clearly physically alive prospective follower to let the 'dead' bury the dead. The soul is created by God and exists distinct from the body, irrespective whether the body is alive or dead. The soul is considered alive or dead based on the source of the spirit that animates it. Prior to Christ, absent a body to express the soul, the soul was preserved while awaiting judgment.

 

[JLB]

I disagree, the Scriptures don't differentiate. Death is death. The Scriptures don't speak of "spiritual death" that too is brought to the Scriptures. The first and second death are body physical bodily deaths. The first death is when we die in this lifetime the second death is of those who are resurrected and are judged unworthy of the kingdom of God, they are thrown into the lake of fire which is the second death.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Joh 5:26-29 KJV)

According to argument it is the body that is in the grave. Jesus said the graves will be opened and those who have done good will be raised to life and those who have done evil will
raised to damnation. In both instances they are raised bodily and judged. Those who are wicked are cast into the Lake of Fire which is the second death.

Your body is what is raised.

Your body is what is in the grave.

You have not addressed the scriptures that deal with the human spirit.

You keep ignoring them.

Why?

 

[Butch5]

There is another way to look at Gen 2:7 where man is formed of dust, but doesn't become a living soul until given the breath of life. Absent the breath of life he is a man with a living body, but a dead soul: physically alive, spiritually dead. The difference is the type of breath that animates one's being; heavenly or earthly. Adam was both physically and spiritually alive until the fall, after which he was physically alive but spiritually dead. This is why Christ could instruct His clearly physically alive prospective follower to let the 'dead' bury the dead. The soul is created by God and exists distinct from the body, irrespective whether the body is alive or dead. The soul is considered alive or dead based on the source of the spirit that animates it. Prior to Christ, absent a body to express the soul, the soul was preserved while awaiting judgment.

The problem here is that it assumes what is not stated, that a body can be alive apart from the breath of Life. Also a soul according to Gen 2:7 requires a body. On another note Scripture doesn't say anything about spiritual death.

 

[Butch5]

Your body is what is raised.

Your body is what is in the grave.

You have not addressed the scriptures that deal with the human spirit.

You keep ignoring them.

Why?

You're assuming there is a "human" spirit. My argument is that there is not. From the beginning of the discussion I've been asking for Scripture that teaches of this "spirit" that supposedly exists in a man.

 

[JLB]

You're assuming there is a "human" spirit. My argument is that there is not. From the beginning of the discussion I've been asking for Scripture that teaches of this "spirit" that supposedly exists in a man.

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23

and again -

... to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, Hebrews 12:23

and again -

19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's. 1 Corinthians 6:19

and again -

Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? 1 Corinthians 14:16

and again -

Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen. Galatians 6:18

and again -

and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, Ephesians 4:23

and again -

The Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Grace be with you. Amen. 2 Timothy 4:22

and again -

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen. Philemon 1:25



JLB

 

[chessman]

And:

1 Corinthians 2:11
Lexham English Bible (LEB)

11 For who among men knows the things of a man, except the spirit of the man that is in him? Thus also no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.


1 Corinthians 14:15
Lexham English Bible (LEB)

15 Therefore what should I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind. I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will also sing praise with my mind.

2 Corinthians 4:16
English Standard Version (ESV)

16 So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day.

Romans 7:22
English Standard Version (ESV)

22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,

Paul was a Jew. But as for OT Jewish perspective. Same type of thing:

Daniel 7:15
English Standard Version (ESV)

15 “As for me, Daniel, my spirit within me was anxious, and the visions of my head alarmed me.

 

[Butch5]

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23

and again -

... to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, Hebrews 12:23

and again -

19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's. 1 Corinthians 6:19

and again -

Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? 1 Corinthians 14:16

and again -

Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen. Galatians 6:18

and again -

and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, Ephesians 4:23

and again -

The Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Grace be with you. Amen. 2 Timothy 4:22

and again -

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen. Philemon 1:25



JLB

This was what I was talking about. You keep posting the same passages. These passages say your spirit, yes. Does that mean there is a spirit in a man that lives on after death, no. It's clear from Genesis 2:7 that God's spirit is in a man. So, yes there is a spirit in man. If one considers the way language is used these passages are easily reconciled. Saying your spirit defines the spirit of God that is in a particular individual. Scripture uses language in this way.

4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Eze 18:4 KJV)

God said all souls are His, yet David said,

4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. (Psa 6:4 KJV)

How do we reconcile this? Did David have a soul that did not belong to God? Was God wrong and all souls didn't belong to Him. Or, do we understand that because David is in possession of that soul (life) he refers to it as His? The last option is the only one that reconciles both passages with the Scriptures. We do the same thing today. We say, I have to get my money. Well, you may have money in your possession but it's not yours. All US currency is the property of the US Government. By saying "my money" we are simply saying we are in possession of it. The same thing is said land. If you have land you don't own it you just have the use of it, but we still say "my land"

The problem is that your interpretation of these passages is in conflict with Gen 2:7 and you've not reconciled that.

 

[Butch5]

And:

1 Corinthians 2:11
Lexham English Bible (LEB)

11 For who among men knows the things of a man, except the spirit of the man that is in him? Thus also no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.


1 Corinthians 14:15
Lexham English Bible (LEB)

15 Therefore what should I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind. I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will also sing praise with my mind.

2 Corinthians 4:16
English Standard Version (ESV)
16 So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day.

Romans 7:22
English Standard Version (ESV)

22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,

Paul was a Jew. But as for OT Jewish perspective. Same type of thing:

Daniel 7:15
English Standard Version (ESV)

15 “As for me, Daniel, my spirit within me was anxious, and the visions of my head alarmed me.

I addressed this in post 294.

How do you reconcile this with Gen 2:7

 

[JLB]

This was what I was talking about. You keep posting the same passages. These passages say your spirit, yes. Does that mean there is a spirit in a man that lives on after death, no. It's clear from Genesis 2:7 that God's spirit is in a man. So, yes there is a spirit in man. If one considers the way language is used these passages are easily reconciled. Saying your spirit defines the spirit of God that is in a particular individual. Scripture uses language in this way.

4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Eze 18:4 KJV)

God said all souls are His, yet David said,

4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. (Psa 6:4 KJV)

How do we reconcile this? Did David have a soul that did not belong to God? Was God wrong and all souls didn't belong to Him. Or, do we understand that because David is in possession of that soul (life) he refers to it as His? The last option is the only one that reconciles both passages with the Scriptures. We do the same thing today. We say, I have to get my money. Well, you may have money in your possession but it's not yours. All US currency is the property of the US Government. By saying "my money" we are simply saying we are in possession of it. The same thing is said land. If you have land you don't own it you just have the use of it, but we still say "my land"

The problem is that your interpretation of these passages is in conflict with Gen 2:7 and you've not reconciled that.

Man has a spirit, a soul and a body.

You said man does not have a spirit.

The scriptures have shined the light of truth on your doctrine.


JLB

 

[Butch5]

Man has a spirit, a soul and a body.

You said man does not have a spirit.

The scriptures have shined the light of truth on your doctrine.


JLB

Again, you didn't address the issues. I didn't say man does not have a spirit, I said man is not a spirit. I've already admitted that there is a spirit in a man, it is God's

 

[JLB]

Again, you didn't address the issues. I didn't say man does not have a spirit, I said man is not a spirit. I've already admitted that there is a spirit in a man, it is God's

God is the Father and creator of all of us.

He gives us life.

He forms our spirit within us.

He is the Father of all spirits, whether angelic beings or human beings.

9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? Hebrews 12:9

We are spirit, soul and body.

We can be filled or not be filled with God's Spirit.

We can receive God's Spirit if we are born again.

We have a spirit separate from God's spirit, as it is written


1 The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:Zechariah12:1

The spirit of man.

Once again the scriptures have proven your theory wrong.

JLB

 

[Butch5]

God is the Father and creator of all of us.

He gives us life.

He forms our spirit within us.

He is the Father of all spirits, whether angelic beings or human beings.

9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? Hebrews 12:9

We are spirit, soul and body.

We can be filled or not be filled with God's Spirit.

We can receive God's Spirit if we are born again.

We have a spirit separate from God's spirit, as it is written


1 The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:Zechariah12:1

The spirit of man.

Once again the scriptures have proven your theory wrong.

JLB

You've not proven anything wrong, you've just repeated the same argument with different verses. Yes, God formed a spirit in man.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. (Gen 2:7 NKJ)

You've yet to show anything that says man "IS" a spirit.

 

[Sinthesis]

The problem here is that it assumes what is not stated, that a body can be alive apart from the breath of Life. Also a soul according to Gen 2:7 requires a body. On another note Scripture doesn't say anything about spiritual death.

There is no problem because in Matt 8:22 Jesus stated that the dead can exist in a live body. From Isa 2:22 we can see there are men with only their own breath in their nostrils who are of no esteem.

Gen 2:7 says it is a living soul that has a body, not just any soul. Gen 35:18 establishes that a soul departs the body rather than decays with it.

God is made a liar in Gen 2:17 if there is no such thing as spiritual death.

 

[JLB]

You've not proven anything wrong, you've just repeated the same argument with different verses. Yes, God formed a spirit in man.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. (Gen 2:7 NKJ)

You've yet to show anything that says man "IS" a spirit.

Man himself is a spirit.

Man is made in the image of God.

God is a Spirit.


16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Romans 8:16


All you can seem to say is, that doesn't prove anything.


Many scriptures have been given to you to show we have a spirit and are a spirit.

If you choose to believe man doesn't have a spirit or is not a spirit being, or that man lies unconscience in a grave at death, then you have chosen not to believe the scriptures.

JLB