Did Jesus go to hell between his death and resurrection?

[Butch5]

Yes. I did earlier. Here it is again. Maybe you could speak to it directly rather than saying "it's about the ressurection" because Jesus had a seperate coversation or two or three on another day about the ressurection to another group of Jews. (but it's okay if you'd rather not, it's up to you of course.):
44 You [The ones, the Pharisees, that said “Abraham is dead”] are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father!
[which is to lie, lie, lie (among other things). And if we didn’t know that already, Jesus repeats these facts about their ‘father’ for us here.]
That one was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand firm in the truth, because truth is not in him. Whenever he speaks the lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I am telling the truth, you do not believe me.
[My point is the whole context of the discussion is about lies versus truths (and murder). And Jesus saying that these Jews were lying/wrong.]
48 The Jews answered and said to him, “Do we not correctly say that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus replied, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me!
[Their lie #1, Jesus’ truth about their lie #1. That said Jesus had a demon. That was a lie. They were wrong. Jesus didn’t have a demon. What other statement did they make to Jesus?]
52 The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon [They were not convinced they were wrong. It’s a hard thing to be wrong sometimes.] ! Abraham and the prophets died, and you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death forever.
Their second lie. Jesus’ second corrective truth. I see no other way to understand this whole conversation between Jesus and these particular Pharisees. And I’ve tried looking at it from your perspective. They lied when they said “Abraham and the prophets died”. And Jesus corrected them with “he will never taste death forever”. And what’s more, not just for Abraham but for “anyone [that] keeps my word”.
It’s really just that simple and specific of a point that I’m making. That plus Jesus’ teaching in Matt 10:28 (Body/Soul) and indeed the Gen account of Adam’s creation are very clear to me given a human is a body/soul combo. I have no motivation to think otherwise, and I’ve never seen any Scriptures posted that conflicts with my understanding, including all of your posts.
More on your counter to my point above later…

​

Let me ask you a question. Why do you believe the statement, 'Abraham and the prophets are dead' is a lie? Moses records that Abraham died.

 

[Butch5]

Yes. Yes.
But I’m confused. I’m not quite sure why you go on to Mark 22:29-32, Mar 12:26-27, and Luke 20:35-38 to counter the point I was making. Are you suggesting that’s a parallel account to the John 8 discussion Jesus had with the Pharisees? It’s not. There Jesus was talking to another group of Jews with a LOT different take on the afterlife. Pharisees versus Sadducees.
Did you have anything else to counter my “they were lying/wrong” point about “Abraham is dead” you quoted from John 8:52? other than:

That’s not in the John 8 section of Scripture and it’s a whole other conversation with a whole other group of Jews.
But as for those passages concerning Jesus and his discussion with the Sadducees, I agree. There is life after the resurrection. Not sure how that’s on topic of the time period between physical death and the resurrection however (the OP topic).

I realize it was a different group. My point is that the statement about God being the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and that He is the God of the living, was a reference to the Resurrection. Apart from that passage that passage Jesus quoted there is no reason to believe that Abraham is alive in any form unless one brings the idea to the text. That's one of the main points in my overall argument is that the idea of a disembodied consciousness is being brought to and imposed on the text. Instead of me showing how Scripture builds a case for man, I'm having to address the presupposition that man lives apart from the body. The passage about Lazarus and the rich man is presented and claimed to be evidence that man can live apart from the body. That's not a case that has been inductively constructed from the Scriptures, it's imposing a presupposition on the passage.

That's why I keep asking for someone to make an inductive argument for a man living apart from the body. No one has. That's because it's not in the Scriptures. If the case cannot be made from the Scriptures and relies totally on inference then it cannot be claimed that the Bible teaches it. The most that could be claimed is that the idea can be inferred from the Bible.

 

[chessman]

Let me ask you a question. Why do you believe the statement, 'Abraham and the prophets are dead' is a lie?

Hi Butch,

For the third and last time I'll answer your question. Because "the statement" was a lie, that's why I believe it. Don't just stop reading. Read on.

"the statement" was their response (the Pharisees' response) to the Truly Truly statement Jesus just got through saying to them. And Jesus called them liars, not me. That's why.

Here's the Scripture for my argument for the third time:

51 Truly, truly, I [Jesus] say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.” 52 The Jews [these lying Pharisees, see verses 44-45] said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.

44 You [the very Jews that said "the statement"] are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning,and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.

I cannot be more clear in answering your question.

Do you have a comment about THIS. Scripture?

 

[JLB]

Butch said -

I realize it was a different group. My point is that the statement about God being the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and that He is the God of the living, was a reference to the Resurrection.

Where in this statement is there a reference to the resurrection?

Moreover He said, "I am the God of your father--the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:6

By declaring to Moses that He is the God of Abraham, God is stating that Abraham is alive.

Jesus taught this very specific truth in His story about Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man.

Lazarus is called by name, because he is declared alive.

Abraham is called by name because he is alive.

The rich man is not called by name because is considered dead.

What the scriptures teach is dead or alive, may very well conflict with what we consider dead or alive, as we only think of dead or alive from the perspective of the natural body.

Though the natural body is dead, there is still a body and a soul that God is able to destroy in hell.

There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body.


JLB

 

[chessman]

According to Gen 2:7 what is left to be alive?

His Breath of Life which God breathed into Adam's nostrils (body) and was past on down the line.

According to Matt 10:28,
Who killed Abrahams' soul when his body died?

 

[Butch5]

Okay. I buy that. I know that about that conversation. But He did say the Pharissees statement about Abraham in John 8 “Abraham is dead” was a lie. That’s pretty significant to me.
I’m simply saying that based on the lie (Lie #2) in John 8:52, the idea that physical death is all there is until the resurrection of a ‘person’ is contradicted. Plus, it contradicts Matt 10:28, in my opinion.

I’m not sure why you think the statement that Abraham is dead is a lie. He lived about 2000 years before this. No one has lived that long. It seems only logical that Abraham was dead. Moses even said that Abraham was dead.

Yes, I accept Gen 25. Moses records Abraham’s death at the age of ~175 years “long” years. First, how does that prove or disprove your doctrine? Didn’t you just get through saying that (Mat 22:29-32 KJV), (Mar 12:26-27 KJV), (Luk 20:35-38 KJV) “didn't say anything at all about the state of the soul in-between death and the resurrection? Are you now suggesting that Gen 25 does teach something about the soul in-between physical death and the resurrection (the OP topic)? I’d like to hear your point(s) relative to that, if that’s the case.
I have a question for you about Gen 25:7-8, since you mention it. What do you think Moses means by (after Abraham’s death) he “was gathered to his people”? Was he gathered to the bones of his people, i.e. buried? Are ‘bones’ people in-between death and resurrection or are they just bones/dust?

The reason for posting it was because you seemed to think that the Pharisees were lying when they said Abraham is dead. I thought maybe you’ll accept Moses’ words.

Yes, Abraham was buried. You got to remember that the Bible wasn’t written in 21st century English. They figures of speech they use may differ from ours. When we say, he kicked the buck, dead people aren’t really kicking a bucket.

First, let me answer your question as best I can. Yes, I’m aware that the bible calls living fish and living beasts souls. I don’t really want to get side-tracked however concerning whether Abraham is merely physically dead (his dust is dead) or is both his dust and his soul dead, however. Unless of course that’s all you have to say about John 8:52.
7 And the LORD God formed _Man (M)_ of the dust (D) of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the _Breath of Life (BoL)__; and _M__ became a Living Soul (LS). (Gen 2:7 KJV)
First I would note than when God formed Man of dust and His Breath of Life , then Man became a living soul.
Not a dead sould, but a living soul.
Logically/mathematically that verse could be expressed God formed M = D + BoL; M = LS.
Man equals Dust plus the Breath of Life; (plus the work of God). I agree. I have no conflict with that.
Logically one could even say Man (The man Adam) = living Soul in Gen 2:7. At least Adam was living at that time. I agree a living Man is a living soul is Dust plus Breath of Life. I mean that’s what it says about Man’s creation, sure. I have no conflict with any of that. Nor, I suppose, do you. But then you say:
“A soul needs these two things to be a soul.” Hmm, That’s S = BoL + D (I suppose is what you mean, you don’t say what those two things are that are needed but I assume that’s what you mean. But are you speaking of a living soul or a dead soul? Cause this text only teaches what it takes to create a living soul. What does it say about a dead soul? Nothing, really. One way or the other.
This Scripture teaches that Man (Adam) needed two things (three really if you include God’s creative act which I do. I’m no evolutionist.) to be a living soul.
I have no idea how you say this Scripture teaches “A soul needs these two things to be a soul.” That’s because it’s not a logical derived statement based on this passage. This passage teaches what is needed for man to become a living soul. The OP is about Jesus’ dead soul.
A living soul is Dust plus the Breath of Life (I’d include God’s creative work as well since that’s what the text says). All three come together to form a living soul. Now, what’s a dead soul look like? I don’t know. This passage doesn’t actually say what a dead soul is (if anything). If I had to speculate, I’d speculate that if you remove the “dust” (the biological material) from a living soul, you indeed have a dead soul. You do NOT have a living soul anymore you have what we are discussing here, a dead soul.
M = D + BoL and if you take away (subtract) the Dust (D) from a man and put it in the grave, what’s left then?
M – D = D + BoL – D = BoL. Indeed to call what’s left a “living soul” is no longer accurate.
But calling what is left (BoL) a dead soul, maybe is not to speculative?
If my math is right, that is. Correct me if I’m wrong here, but if a living soul is Dust plus the Breath of Life and you take away the Dust, you don’t have zero, you have the Breath of Life remaining. Else, you’ve got murders (like the Devil for example) able to do things he’s simply not capable of doing.
I know at least one Scripture that’s helpful (at least it is to me).
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28 ESV)
Aren’t you saying that “Abraham is dead” means that when Abraham’s body died there was nothing left of Abraham (until the ressurection)? [Studying the meaning of ressurection is also interesting].
But that’s simply not accurate to the text of Gen 2:7 or John 8.
Let’s assume for the sake of argument that “the Body” is what’s meant by “The Dust”. (I mean after all Gen 2:7 says God breathed the Breath of Life into Adam’s nostrils and the nostrils are part of the body.
Therefore, “to kill the body” is like death (i.e. Abraham “died” at the age of 175 years several thousand years ago). What’s left of Abraham now, based on these two passages Gen 2:7 and Matt 10:28? The Breath of Life is left, not zero. Plus, you’ve got the fact that not even murder destroys the soul. It might very well kill the living soul creating a “dead soul”. But did it “destroy” Abraham? No way. You still have the Abraham’s Breath of Life remaining.

It’s in the usage of words. A dead soul is equivalent to a dead person.

13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living? (Psa 56:13 KJV)

50 He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence; (Psa 78:50 KJV)

48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? (Psa 89:48 KJV)

This passage is talking about Jesus.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. (Isa 53:12 KJV)

20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. (Jam 5:20 KJV)

These passages show that the death of a soul is tied to the physical body. Gen 2:7 gives us the components of a living soul. To say if you take one away you have a dead soul is not accurate because if you take one away, you no longer have a soul. It’s like taking hydrogen and oxygen and uniting them you have water. If you take one away, you don’t have dead water or broken water, you only have the remaining element.

We know that the breath/spirit of life is God’s and returns to Him when the man dies, but it’s not a dead soul it’s one of the elements of a soul.

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

(Matthew 10:28 ESV)
What constitutes a “concrete usage” versus a metaphorical usage to you? Do you think Jesus was speaking metaphorically to the disciples in Matt 10:28? I don’t think they were metaphorically persecuted and killed. I think they were concretely persecuted unto death. AND I think their Breath of Life remained even though they were no longer a “living soul”.
Very likely/ironically by some of the very same Pharisees that killed Jesus and that He was speaking to in John 8 when He said: ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death forever.

I believe He was using the word concretely here. The comparison here is who does the killing. Man can kill the body, but not the breath of life which is in a man. The BOL and body are the soul. However, God can resurrect that body so man does not have the last word. On the other hand God can destroy the body and take way the breath of life thus destroying the soul. If God takes away the BOL and casts the body into the Lake of Fire both body and soul are destroyed. Notice the words that Jesus used, Destroyed not killed. Also notice that it’s the body and soul that are destroyed and not body, soul, and breath/spirit. The breath/spirit belongs to God and does not get destroyed.

 

[Butch5]

His Breath of Life which God breathed into Adam's nostrils (body) and was past on down the line.

According to Matt 10:28,
Who killed Abrahams' soul when his body died?

It's not Abraham's breath of life, it's God's. Ecc 3 says that man and animals all have one breath/spirit. It's the same in all life. If it's the same breath/spirit then it cannot be the individual. It cannot be Abraham, Moses, David, etc. It's God's

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?(Ecc 3:18-21 KJV)

When Abraham's body died his soul died.

 

[Butch5]

Where in this statement is there a reference to the resurrection?

Moreover He said, "I am the God of your father--the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:6

By declaring to Moses that He is the God of Abraham, God is stating that Abraham is alive.

Jesus taught this very specific truth in His story about Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man.

Lazarus is called by name, because he is declared alive.

Abraham is called by name because he is alive.

The rich man is not called by name because is considered dead.

What the scriptures teach is dead or alive, may very well conflict with what we consider dead or alive, as we only think of dead or alive from the perspective of the natural body.

Though the natural body is dead, there is still a body and a soul that God is able to destroy in hell.

There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body.


JLB

No, He's not. He stated specifically that the statement pertained to the resurrection. I've already quoted the passages.

 

[chessman]

you seemed to think that the Pharisees were lying when they said Abraham is dead.

Your not addressing the John 8 Scripture and the fact that Jesus called them liars not me. Help me here.

You can say things like it's all about presuppositions on my part till the cows come home. But you really should address this John 8 passage for me if you want to remove this stumbling block for me of your view and were I see It's conflicting with what Jesus says.

Please, let's stay focused on John 8 for now. If what you teach me about it pans out, I'll listen further. But maybe I'm just not following your response to this passage's message. I'm trying to see where my logic breaks down.

I thought maybe you would accept Jesus' words there as well. I do accept Moses' words back in Gen. So baby steps for me here:

Jesus said to these Jews: "44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires.

Do you accept that's what He said to these Jews here?

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch,

For the third and last time I'll answer your question. Because "the statement" was a lie, that's why I believe it. Don't just stop reading. Read on.

"the statement" was their response (the Pharisees' response) to the Truly Truly statement Jesus just got through saying to them. And Jesus called them liars, not me. That's why.

Here's the Scripture for my argument for the third time:

51 Truly, truly, I [Jesus] say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.” 52 The Jews [these lying Pharisees, see verses 44-45] said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.

44 You [the very Jews that said "the statement"] are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning,and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.

I cannot be more clear in answering your question.

Do you have a comment about THIS. Scripture?

He calls them a liar when they claim to know God. They didn't believe who He was and claimed He had a devil. Have you considered that they actually may have believed He had a devil? If that is the case then they weren't lying. They could have been wrong but being wrong is not a lie. A lie is to intentionally deceive. Moses states plainly that Abraham died. Moses wrote that Abraham died at 175 years old. Abraham lived approximately 2000 years before Jesus came on the scene. That means he died about 1800 before Jesus came on the scene. It seems to me that the Pharisees are simply stating a fact that Moses wrote. We know that no one has lived past 1000 years so even logic dictates that Abraham was dead.

I don't see anything here that indicates that the statement "Abraham is dead" is a lie. Back in verse 44 He calls them children of the devil but I don't see where He's claiming they're lying until they claim to know God..

In verse 51 The Jews are talking about Abraham in the present, I believe Jesus' words are referring to the resurrection, not his present state because He says unto the age.

 

[Butch5]

Your not addressing the John 8 Scripture and the fact that Jesus called them liars not me. Help me here.

You can say things like it's all about presuppositions on my part till the cows come home. But you really should address this John 8 passage for me if you want to remove this stumbling block for me of your view and were I see It's conflicting with what Jesus says.

Please, let's stay focused on John 8 for now. If what you teach me about it pans out, I'll listen further. But maybe I'm just not following your response to this passage's message. I'm trying to see where my logic breaks down.

I thought maybe you would accept Jesus' words there as well. I do accept Moses' words back in Gen. So baby steps for me here:

Jesus said to these Jews: "44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires.

Do you accept that's what He said to these Jews here?

Ok, maybe I'm assuming things that I need to explain. Yes, He said those words. However, if someone is a liar, it's not logical to think they never tell the truth, would you agree with that statement?

 

[JLB]

No, He's not. He stated specifically that the statement pertained to the resurrection. I've already quoted the passages.

Jesus taught life and death on another dimension than that of the natural.

22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. Luke 16:22-25


Abraham was aware of details of this man's life.

Abraham spoke to this man.

The rich man was aware of his family.

The rich man spoke to Abraham.

Abraham's physical body would one day be resurrected from the dead.

Abraham's soul and spirit were alive.


JLB

 

[chessman]

Yes, He said those words. However, if someone is a liar, it's not logical to think they never tell the truth, would you agree with that statement?

Sure. But I didn't say they never tell the truth. We are talking about the evidence for the things they said (one of which you highlighted) and that Jesus specifically disagreed with them about as evidence for your doctrine (“Abraham is dead”, John 8:52). Was that statement true (or not) and did Jesus think it was true (or not) is the question, not something they might have said on another day that’s not even recorded for us. I'm sure that if they told their wives: “Honey, I’m going to Starbucks for coffee” they sometimes did tell the truth and just go get coffee. On the other hand, sometimes they probably really did go for the carrot cake and not the coffeeJ

But that’s not really my point nor in this a recorded conversation for us to evaluate. There are many things recorded for us within this very text that are lies made by them. That’s my point, not that they could never say something truthful on another subject on another day (like even their view of the resurrection which they disagreed with the Sadducees on). Jesus, in John 8 was NOT discussing the resurrection with them. It’s very odd to me to even bring that into the discussion. Is it possible that idea comes from presupposition on someone’s part to think he was discussing the resurrection when the discuss was about demons and whether Abraham and the prophets were dead or not?

We’re (or I’m) not talking about other statements they may or may not have made throughout their lives or that Moses or “A Certain Rich Man” made or for that matter the Sadducees made which Jesus also corrected. It’s these specific statements recorded for us and that Jesus responded to that we are examining. Let’s stay focused on this conversation between Jesus and these specific Pharisees. Then, if we need to venture away from this text (or talk about the definitions for “a lie” or “liar” versus an untrue statement, fine).

So getting back to what’s recorded for us here in John 8:
Jesus told them; [These Jews, on this day, that their will is to do your father's desires.” [44] This “will” includes murder and lying (as Jesus clarified for them and us).
How about these words of Jesus toward the later part of their conversation after the statement in verse 52:
[55] … I would be a liar like you, (John 8:55 ESV)

So Jesus did, in fact, did call them liars, right? And He started this conversation out with the same accusation against them (their will is to do their father’s desires, the Devil, the liar and murderer).

Then we have in the middle of these two statements these devilish sorts saying “Abraham died” and in fact Jesus disagreeing with them about what they just said as he did a LOT of other things they just said to Him.

So when you asked me this earlier:

I’m not sure why you think the statement that Abraham is dead is a lie.

I find that a little odd on any fair assessment of this text. And frankly makes me wonder if you are being objective (versus holding an overly firm presupposition about physical death. There's at least a possibility within this Scripture that there’s a lie (untruth) within their statement, right? A pretty good possibility. Because there was, in fact, lying statements (way more than just one) made all throughout chapter 8 by them within their various statements (if not all of them) that was a lie. That’s one of the reasons I think it’s a fair minded assessment of this conversation and why I said what I did.
(Cont)

 

[chessman]

So continue with answering your further question (a very reasonable question, I think):

That's why I keep asking for someone to make an inductive argument for a man living apart from the body. No one has. That's because it's not in the Scriptures. If the case cannot be made from the Scriptures and relies totally on inference then it cannot be claimed that the Bible teaches it. The most that could be claimed is that the idea can be inferred from the Bible.

Here’s my argument again. Jesus and these Pharisees were having a conversation, disagreeing on not just whether these Jews “knew God” or not or about “the resurrection”. Jesus was telling the truth about several things they were falsely claiming.
For example.
As Jesus arrived early in the morning to the temple and these Pharisees approached Him with a “trap question”. They questioned Jesus about the proper punishment for adultery under their Mosaic Law versus their current Roman imposed limitations for their administration of capital punishment. “Should she be stoned?” Answer “Let him who is without sin stone her.” i.e. No, not by them. She shouldn’t be stoned and wasn’t. Plus, God (standing their talking to them) is her true judge.

So here’s the deal with my argument. I’ve looked through this text and built a ‘pop quiz’ on the questions/statements and answers/response within this conversation. Pharisees words in blue. Jesus words in Red. How did the Pharisees do on the test versus Jesus?
.................................................................................................................... Pharisees: Jesus: Answer
Q1: Stone a woman for Adultery? ................................................................Y (v3, v15): N: N see verse 11
Q2: Will whoever follows Jesus have the Light of Life?............................ N(v13): Y : Y see verse 12
Q3: Could the Pharisees go where Jesus was going?.................................. Y (22) N N see verse 21
Q4: Would the Pharisees die in their sins? ....................................................N (v33, 41) Y Y see verse 21
Q5: Where the Pharisees enslaved to sin? ......................................................N (v33) Y Y see v 34
Q6: Was Abraham being their ‘father’ enough to save them?........................... Y(v39) N N v 39
Q7: Was Jesus born through sexual immorality?.............................................. Y(v41) N N see v 42
Q8: Was God the Pharisees Father?................................................................ Y(41) N N v42, 44
Q9: Was Jesus a Samaritan? ........................................................................... Y (v48) N N see verse 49
Q10: Was Jesus demon possessed?.............................................................. Y (v48,52) N N see verse 49
Score so far (and you are welcome to point out any errors):............................ 0% 100%

If these Pharisees were taking a test, they would have a 0 for a score so far (correct me if I’m wrong). And Jesus would have scored 100%. Ironic really, since they came to Jesus that very morning hoping to trap Him in a question about the punishment for adultery under Mosaic law.
So here we come to the question about Abraham’s condition ‘Abraham died’:
Q11: Was Abraham fully dead at this time in history (even though his body, ‘his dust’ was indeed dead and buried) or was just his body dead and Abraham’s soul (or Breath of Life, or spirit, etc.) still alive in some way?
Pharisees say Yes. (52,53) Jesus say? __v51, 56___

My answer is NO Abraham’s soul was not dead. In some way he is alive (call it his soul, his Breath of Life, his spirit, whatever) and Jesus said so. It’s not as if Jesus didn’t have anything to say about Abraham in John 8. To me, he was obviously countering their false statement with the truth, just like He was their other 10 questions/statements. Here’s the things he said that, in my opinion, are applicable to answering this question in contrary way than they did. Just from John 8, but there’s lots more elsewhere in the Bible as well.

[51] Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.”
I mean, with all due respect, Jesus didn’t just switch subjects to the resurrection on them. You realize Jesus said “never”, right?

[56] Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”
(John 8:56 ESV)

Let me ask you this again. Do you accept these words of Jesus here?

 

[chessman]

You have made basically three arguments against my inductive argument of Abraham’s condition (Jesus countered what they claimed with the truth) within John 8:
1.

logic dictates that Abraham was dead.

2.

According to Gen 2:7 what is left to be alive?

3.

He calls them a liar when they claim to know God.
I don't see anything here that indicates that the statement "Abraham is dead" is a lie. Back in verse 44 He calls them children of the devil but I don't see where He's claiming they're lying until they claim to know God..
In verse 51 The Jews are talking about Abraham in the present, I believe Jesus' words are referring to the resurrection, not his present state because He says unto the age.

WRT 1. Yes, I find it hard to believe that they were disagreeing on the fact that Abraham’s body was dead and buried if that’s what you mean. That’s obvious to both of them.
WRT 2. Abraham’s Breath of Life, God rest his soul. I’m surprised you’d not see that the soul, via logic, is not just the body but also the Breath of Life. You are the one that mentioned Gen 2:7 talkes about two things that formed Adam. Plus no man can destroy what only God can even if they kill the body.
WRT 3. Umm, I’m left wondering if this might be an instance when you are not really giving the possibility that you could be wrong a fair shot. There is A LOT the Pharisees were wrong about in John 8. Plus the resurrection was not even a topic of discussion between them in Jesus. Plus, the resurrection of the righteous (that is their bodies/dust) would be one of those examples you mention that the Pharisees might very well have a correct doctrine about (versus the Sadducees). The Pharisees did believe in the resurrection of the dead, the Sadducees didn’t. Thus that was a topic of discussion between the Sadducees elsewhere. But it did not come up on this day between these Pharisees and Jesus. Frankly, you seem to be searching for a way out of what Jesus told them about Abraham “never dying” and that Abraham saw Jesus’ day come about (even as is body lay in the dust).

You have said that you acknowledge that Jesus says they are the “Children of the Devil” in verse 44 but He also says: “you do what you have heard from your father in V 38. He’s already said way back at the beginning of their conversation their father lies and murders. Plus way back in verse 31 He says. “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

So lying (false statements) versus true statements are all over the place here in John 8.

Are you sure you are being open minded here with; “I don't see where He's claiming they're lying until they claim to know God”. I see the whole conversation as a real pounding by Jesus of everything they said there. Start to finish. Not just about one little thing they said. But then again, I don’t really have anything holding me back to see the conversation otherwise. I’d be willing to listen to any additional argument(s) you have about John 8:52, 51, 56.

Or any of these previous 10 questions/statements (Q1-Q10) they made versus how Jesus countered every other answer/statement that came out of their mouth with the real truth. Were these Pharisees right about any of these other questions after all? Or was it just the Abraham died statement that they were right about since all they meant was that Abraham was in the grave?

[51] Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.”
[56] Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”

How do you accept (or understand) these words of Jesus within your doctrine of what happens to “the soul” at physical death?

 

[Butch5]

So continue with answering your further question (a very reasonable question, I think):

Here’s my argument again. Jesus and these Pharisees were having a conversation, disagreeing on not just whether these Jews “knew God” or not or about “the resurrection”. Jesus was telling the truth about several things they were falsely claiming.
For example.
As Jesus arrived early in the morning to the temple and these Pharisees approached Him with a “trap question”. They questioned Jesus about the proper punishment for adultery under their Mosaic Law versus their current Roman imposed limitations for their administration of capital punishment. “Should she be stoned?” Answer “Let him who is without sin stone her.” i.e. No, not by them. She shouldn’t be stoned and wasn’t. Plus, God (standing their talking to them) is her true judge.

If these Pharisees were taking a test, they would have a 0 for a score so far (correct me if I’m wrong). And Jesus would have scored 100%. Ironic really, since they came to Jesus that very morning hoping to trap Him in a question about the punishment for adultery under Mosaic law.
So here we come to the question about Abraham’s condition ‘Abraham died’:
Q11: Was Abraham fully dead at this time in history (even though his body, ‘his dust’ was indeed dead and buried) or was just his body dead and Abraham’s soul (or Breath of Life, or spirit, etc.) still alive in some way?
Pharisees say Yes. (52,53) Jesus say? __v51, 56___

My answer is NO Abraham’s soul was not dead. In some way he is alive (call it his soul, his Breath of Life, his spirit, whatever) and Jesus said so. It’s not as if Jesus didn’t have anything to say about Abraham in John 8. To me, he was obviously countering their false statement with the truth, just like He was their other 10 questions/statements. Here’s the things he said that, in my opinion, are applicable to answering this question in contrary way than they did. Just from John 8, but there’s lots more elsewhere in the Bible as well.

[51] Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.”
I mean, with all due respect, Jesus didn’t just switch subjects to the resurrection on them. You realize Jesus said “never”, right?

[56] Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”
(John 8:56 ESV)

Let me ask you this again. Do you accept these words of Jesus here?

I removed your test because the post was to long

Hi Chessman,

Let me say firstly that your conclusion that Abraham is alive in form must be brought to this text. There is nothing in this text to indicate that Abraham is alive in some form. One must already have that idea when coming to the text.

I am quite confused at how you've drawn this conclusion. I am following you're argument but I just do see the justification to say that the stamen "Abraham is dead" is a lie. In your quiz I thing you may have assumed some of the answers for the Pharisees. You quoted verse 51 and said,

[51] Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.”
I mean, with all due respect, Jesus didn’t just switch subjects to the resurrection on them. You realize Jesus said “never”, right?

Let me ask you, do Christians die? If yes then they taste death, correct? It seems to me that this must be talking about eternal life. Even if you say there is a part of man that lives on after death, every Christian still dies. Jesus didn't say his soul will never see death or his spirit will never see death, He said he will never see death. Whether you want to claim it's physical death or spiritual death (which doesn't exist) doesn't matter they still taste death. The only time one will never see death is at the resurrection. Once resurrected the believer will never taste death.

Then you quoted,

[56] Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”
(John 8:56 ESV)

Which I assume (correct me if I'm wrong) you believe proves that Abraham was alive when Jesus said that. However, he wasn't, it was Jesus, the Word of God, who spoke with Abraham in the OT.

KJV Genesis 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.
7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.
8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
9 And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.
10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
13 And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
15 Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.
16 And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.
17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? (Gen 18:1-23 KJV)

Jesus said,
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (Joh 1:18 NKJ)

That's why the Jews wanted to stone Him, by saying that Abraham had seen His day He was claiming to be God.

The Pharisees didn't believe in an existence between death and the resurrection and the Sadducees didn't believe in any after life. The statement, "Abraham is dead" would have been the perfect place for Jesus to say, no , you're wrong, Abraham is alive and is in Heaven or wherever, Yet He says nothing at all about Abraham. He doesn't even deny that Abraham is dead, He doesn't address the comment about Abraham at all.

You asked if maybe I'm coming to the text with presuppositions, yes, I am. I'm coming to the text with the presupposition of the whole OT. I'm coming to the text with the presupposition of Genesis 2:7 that says man is a soul comprised of a body and spirit/breath. I'm coming to the text with the presupposition that the dead know nothing and cannot praise God.

17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. (Psa 115:17 KJV)

18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. (Isa 38:18 KJV)

5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (Ecc 9:5 KJV)

When Jesus had His ministry there was no NT. These Jews had the OT and the OT said the dead know nothing and cannot praise God. So why and where would they ever get the idea that somehow Abraham was alive when he was dead?

I've looked at the passage again and I don't see anywhere that Jesus refuted the statement "Abraham is dead". I see where you've inferred that from those two passages, however, that is not a necessary inference, especially, when there is nothing in the OT that would indicate that. If one reads thorough the OT they won't come away with the idea that the dead are somehow alive and dead at the same time.

 

[Butch5]

You have made basically three arguments against my inductive argument of Abraham’s condition (Jesus countered what they claimed with the truth) within John 8:
1.
2.
3.
WRT 1. Yes, I find it hard to believe that they were disagreeing on the fact that Abraham’s body was dead and buried if that’s what you mean. That’s obvious to both of them.
WRT 2. Abraham’s Breath of Life, God rest his soul. I’m surprised you’d not see that the soul, via logic, is not just the body but also the Breath of Life. You are the one that mentioned Gen 2:7 talkes about two things that formed Adam. Plus no man can destroy what only God can even if they kill the body.
WRT 3. Umm, I’m left wondering if this might be an instance when you are not really giving the possibility that you could be wrong a fair shot. There is A LOT the Pharisees were wrong about in John 8. Plus the resurrection was not even a topic of discussion between them in Jesus. Plus, the resurrection of the righteous (that is their bodies/dust) would be one of those examples you mention that the Pharisees might very well have a correct doctrine about (versus the Sadducees). The Pharisees did believe in the resurrection of the dead, the Sadducees didn’t. Thus that was a topic of discussion between the Sadducees elsewhere. But it did not come up on this day between these Pharisees and Jesus. Frankly, you seem to be searching for a way out of what Jesus told them about Abraham “never dying” and that Abraham saw Jesus’ day come about (even as is body lay in the dust).

You have said that you acknowledge that Jesus says they are the “Children of the Devil” in verse 44 but He also says: “you do what you have heard from your father in V 38. He’s already said way back at the beginning of their conversation their father lies and murders. Plus way back in verse 31 He says. “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

So lying (false statements) versus true statements are all over the place here in John 8.

Are you sure you are being open minded here with; “I don't see where He's claiming they're lying until they claim to know God”. I see the whole conversation as a real pounding by Jesus of everything they said there. Start to finish. Not just about one little thing they said. But then again, I don’t really have anything holding me back to see the conversation otherwise. I’d be willing to listen to any additional argument(s) you have about John 8:52, 51, 56.

Or any of these previous 10 questions/statements (Q1-Q10) they made versus how Jesus countered every other answer/statement that came out of their mouth with the real truth. Were these Pharisees right about any of these other questions after all? Or was it just the Abraham died statement that they were right about since all they meant was that Abraham was in the grave?

[51] Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.”
[56] Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”

How do you accept (or understand) these words of Jesus within your doctrine of what happens to “the soul” at physical death?

I addressed the two passage in the previous post. If you need more of an explanation please let me know. There is nothing in John 8 where Jesus refutes the statement. "Abraham is dead". Does He call them liars, yes. However, as you agreed that doesn't mean every single word they said was a lie. I really see no reason to think the statement was a lie, especially when it's confirmed elsewhere in Scripture.

Have you considered the problem it causes to say that Jesus said they were lying? Moses makes the same statement that Abraham died, if the Pharisees were lying does that Moses was lying also?

 

[chessman]

Let me say firstly that your conclusion that Abraham is alive in form must be brought to this text. There is nothing in this text to indicate that Abraham is alive in some form. One must already have that idea when coming to the text.
.

Except of course:[
51] Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.”

And:
56] Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”
(John 8:56 ESV)

And:
the list of other untrue statements they made to the 'teacher'.

And:
The fact He called them devilish sons of The Liar.

And:
The fact that nothing in the OT contradicts a different intermediate state for the wicked than for the elect.

Abraham is an "anyone that kept His word" .

Your counter point,
Abraham rejoiced at S&G's destruction???? Not so much,

And:
I don't just assume Jesus answered their false claim, I read it.

The Jews said to him, ...“Abraham died, ... yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’

Obviously they disagreed on this point.

You assume 'His Day' was a reference to the day before the destruction of S&G when Jesus spoke to him.

Yet on that day:

17 The Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do,

Abraham 'rejoiced' that day given what Jesus told him he was about to do???? No, I don't buy it.

but Abraham still stood before the Lord. 23 Then Abraham drew near and said, “Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked?

Rejoice? Not so much.

25 Far be it from you to do such a thing, to put the righteous to death with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?

Talk about OT contradictions with a certain doctrine! Is it not your position that in the intermediate state, the wicked and the righteous fare the same treatment? Yes, I know and agree that the immediate context was a reference to their destruction within the cites. Who escaped that treatment?

You familiar with the fact that the righteous do not fare as the wicked do? Sound familiar?
Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.”

'His Day' was when His work was finished on the cross, not on the plains with Moses. He'd not even come incarnate at that time! wow.
See how far afield you must go with this text!

First you claim He didn't call them liars. Then what He did say was merely a reference to resurrection and not even about their statement. They thought it was a claim against theirs!

Now you claim 'His Day' was when he appeared to Abraham and Sara (which I agree that was Jesus by the way) versus His Day when it was all finished.

Astonishing, coming from you. I'm highly surprised. Then you end with Jesus saying nothing about Abraham in John 8. When is the last time you actually sat down and read John 8?(the whole thing)?

I have no idea why you are fighting against Jesus' reply to their false claim.

Gen
33 And the Lord went his way, when he had finished speaking to Abraham, and Abraham returned to his place.

Hmm, you'd think the man would have thrown a big party, what with all that rejoicing and all.

In your quiz I thing you may have assumed some of the answers for the Pharisees.
.

Like which ones?

Let me ask you, do Christians die? If yes then they taste death, correct? It seems to me that this must be talking about eternal life. Even if you say there is a part of man that lives on after death, every Christian still dies. Jesus didn't say his soul will never see death or his spirit will never see death, He said he will never see death. Whether you want to claim it's physical death or spiritual death (which doesn't exist) doesn't matter they still taste death. The only time one will never see death is at the resurrection. Once resurrected the believer will never taste death.
.

Yes Christ died as well. But, what does that mean?

The only time one will never see death is at the resurrection[after death]. That's like saying I made a 100 on a test, except for that one problem I missed. The point is, never means never, not later.

The hard empirical fact is, I guess, we don't really know what happens after the first death. Why not let Jesus tell us? He told these Pharisees.

Which I assume (correct me if I'm wrong) you believe proves that Abraham was alive when Jesus said that. However, he wasn't,
.

Yes, that's what i think he meant by a dead man seeing 'His Day'
Yes I think he was alive on 'His Day' on the cross.
Luke 17:
20 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed,...
For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation...

29 but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all— 30 so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed.31 On that day,

And the point:
33 Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it.

The Pharisees didn't believe in an existence between death and the resurrection and the Sadducees didn't believe in any after life. The statement, "Abraham is dead" would have been the perfect place for Jesus to say, no , you're wrong, Abraham is alive and is in Heaven or wherever, Yet He says nothing at all about Abraham.
.

I know. It was a perfect place for him to correct them. That's why He did.

The Jews said to him, ...“Abraham died, ... yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’

He says Nothing about Abraham????

Thanks for your time.
Take care.

 

[Butch5]

Except of course:[

51] Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.”

And:

56] Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”

(John 8:56 ESV)

And:

the list of other untrue statements they made to the 'teacher'.

And:

The fact He called them devilish sons of The Liar.

And:

The fact that nothing in the OT contradicts a different intermediate state for the wicked than for the elect.

Abraham is an "anyone that kept His word" .

Hi Chessman,

You said you wanted to deal with this particular text. The context is that the Pharisees didn’t believe in a ghost that lives on after death. Nowhere in this passage does Jesus said there is a ghost that lives on after death. Nowhere does He say Abraham is alive. There are other passage of Scripture that state Abraham is dead. You’re inferring that from the text it’s not stated.

There’s no reason to assume Abraham is alive based on,

Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.”

When Scripture plainly state that Abraham is dead. If we’re going to understand the Scriptures we’ve got to reconcile the two passages. The interpretation you’ve given would make the statement by Moses incorrect. It seems then that either Moses was wrong or maybe Jesus meant something other than Abraham was alive at that very moment. If Jesus meant that person will never die at all, then that means the Scriptures are wrong when they say that David died, and, Moses, Isaac, Jacob, Gideon, Adam, Sarah,


4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. (Heb 11:4-13 KJV)


The list could go on and on and on. These all kept His word and yet they saw death.


Are you suggesting that all of the passage that speak of the death of these individuals are wrong or are lies? There are a lot of passages. Isn’t it more likely that you are not understanding Jesus words correctly?

Your counter point,

Abraham rejoiced at S&G's destruction???? Not so much,


And:

I don't just assume Jesus answered their false claim, I read it.


The Jews said to him, ...“Abraham died, ... yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’


Obviously they disagreed on this point.


You assume 'His Day' was a reference to the day before the destruction of S&G when Jesus spoke to him.


Yet on that day:


17 The Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do,


Abraham 'rejoiced' that day given what Jesus told him he was about to do???? No, I don't buy it.


but Abraham still stood before the Lord. 23 Then Abraham drew near and said, “Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked?
Rejoice? Not so much.

I wasn’t making the point that Abraham rejoiced at the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. The point was that Abraham saw Christ and that the statement Jesus made didn’t mean that Abraham was somehow alive when he was dead. If you need passages where Abraham would rejoice I can give you some.

Here’s a reason for him to rejoice,

KJV Genesis 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. (Gen 12:1-3 KJV)

7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him. (Gen 12:7 KJV)

14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee. (Gen 13:14-17 KJV)


These are few of the reasons that Abraham rejoiced when he saw Christ’s day.

 

[Butch5]

25 Far be it from you to do such a thing, to put the righteous to death with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?


Talk about OT contradictions with a certain doctrine! Is it not your position that in the intermediate state, the wicked and the righteous fare the same treatment? Yes, I know and agree that the immediate context was a reference to their destruction within the cites. Who escaped that treatment?

If you agree that the immediate context is their destruction within the cities why post this because it doesn’t address the issue.

On another note how many righteous were found there and what happened to them.

You familiar with the fact that the righteous do not fare as the wicked do? Sound familiar?
Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.”

They fare differently after the resurrection not before it.

19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. (Ecc 3:19-20 KJV)

'His Day' was when His work was finished on the cross, not on the plains with Moses. He'd not even come incarnate at that time! wow.

See how far afield you must go with this text!

Do you have anything from Scripture saying that “His day” is referring to the cross or is that just your opinion?


Your statement, “how far afield you must go with this text” is interesting since I’m quoting Scripture where Jesus spoke with Abraham. When on the other hand to present the interpretation that you’re presenting you must go to Greek Philosophy or Gnosticism.

First you claim He didn't call them liars. Then what He did say was merely a reference to resurrection and not even about their statement. They thought it was a claim against theirs!

Now you claim 'His Day' was when he appeared to Abraham and Sara (which I agree that was Jesus by the way) versus His Day when it was all finished.

Astonishing, coming from you. I'm highly surprised. Then you end with Jesus saying nothing about Abraham in John 8. When is the last time you actually sat down and read John 8?(the whole thing)?

I have no idea why you are fighting against Jesus' reply to their false claim.

Gen
33 And the Lord went his way, when he had finished speaking to Abraham, and Abraham returned to his place.

Hmm, you'd think the man would have thrown a big party, what with all that rejoicing and all.

Where does Jesus say Abraham is alive?

I seriously don’t understand how you’re claiming that Jesus is calling them liars about Abraham being dead when others in Scripture also said that Abraham is dead and I don’t you’d call them liars.

Like which ones?

Yes Christ died as well. But, what does that mean?

The only time one will never see death is at the resurrection[after death]. That's like saying I made a 100 on a test, except for that one problem I missed. The point is, never means never, not later.

The hard empirical fact is, I guess, we don't really know what happens after the first death. Why not let Jesus tell us? He told these Pharisees.

Ok, then His words can’t mean that men don’t die or taste death at all, correct?

Yes, that's what i think he meant by a dead man seeing 'His Day'

Yes I think he was alive on 'His Day' on the cross.

Luke 17:

20 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed,...

For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation...

29 but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all— 30 so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed.31 On that day,

And the point:

33 Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it.

The problem with that is that Jesus said he saw it, not he will see it. Jesus hadn’t yet died and Abraham had already seen “His day”. Jesus used the past tense so he couldn’t have been speaking of the future.

I know. It was a perfect place for him to correct them. That's why He did.

The Jews said to him, ...“Abraham died, ... yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’

He says Nothing about Abraham????

That doesn’t say Abraham is alive, that’s an inference.

Thanks for your time.

Take care.

It seems you’re upset by the discussion, I’m sorry to hear that. It appears to me that this has struck a nerve and I hope there are no hard feelings, thanks for the discussion.