Did Jesus go to hell between his death and resurrection?

[JLB]

What you've posted here is the opposite of your claim. Jesus isn't bringing the dead to earth, He's bringing the resurrected to God.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(1Th 4:14-17 KJV)

The passage says that God will bring them with Jesus. Jesus is going back to raise the dead and God is going to bring them back with Jesus. Verses 15-17 explain verse 14.

Here are few other translations that may be a little clearer.

CJB 1 Thessalonians 4:14 do who have nothing to hope for. For since we believe that Yeshua died and rose again, we also believe that in the same way God, through Yeshua, will take with him those who have died. (1Th 4:14 CJB)

MIT 1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe Jesus died and rose, in the same manner God through Jesus will bring those sleeping (in death) with him (1Th 4:14 MIT)

NET 1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also we believe that God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep as Christians. (1Th 4:14 NET)

YLT 1 Thessalonians 4:14 for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God those asleep through Jesus he will bring with him, (1Th 4:14 YLT)

Jesus will come from heaven with the saints who are alive in heaven, to earth to receive their immortall bodies that will never die.

These saints who were in heaven, will return with Jesus Christ at the end of the age to gather His people from the farthest part of heaven to the farthest part of earth, where all will be with The Lord.

The saints who die go to heaven to be with the Lord.

When Jesus returns to earth He will come with the saints, and we who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.


Here is something you seemed to have missed: God is the God of the living and not the dead.

There are no dead in heaven, only living saints who are awaiting there resurrected body, on the last Day!

And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:27

Whose are these that Jesus gathers from heaven to come to earth?

He is Coming from Heaven where He is seated at the right hand of God, to earth for the resurrection/rapture.


JLB

 

[Butch5]

Jesus will come from heaven with the saints who are alive in heaven, to earth to receive their immortall bodies that will never die.

These saints who were in heaven, will return with Jesus Christ at the end of the age to gather His people from the farthest part of heaven to the farthest part of earth, where all will be with The Lord.

The saints who die go to heaven to be with the Lord.

When Jesus returns to earth He will come with the saints, and we who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.


Here is something you seemed to have missed: God is the God of the living and not the dead.

There are no dead in heaven, only living saints who are awaiting there resurrected body, on the last Day!

And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:27

Whose are these that Jesus gathers from heaven to come to earth?

He is Coming from Heaven where He is seated at the right hand of God, to earth for the resurrection/rapture.

JLB

You do realize that the Sky is called the heavens too right?

You keep posting your opinion of passages. You've yet to show where Scripture teaches that a man can live without a body. Until you can show that everything you say is just your opinion. For us to address these passages the existence of a disembodied consciousness has to be established.

I posted the whole passage that says God will bring with Jesus those who are raised. There are no people in Heaven, that's an assumption. The Scriptures say that the dead, know nothing and cannot praise God. There is nothing to assume or infer since the passages plainly state that. You're drawing inferences from these passages and trying to say the Bible says xyz. The Bible says what it clearly states, inferences can be right or wrong.

 

[JLB]

Butch 5 said -

For us to address these passages the existence of a disembodied consciousness has to be established.

Please show me the phrase "disembodied consciousness" in the scriptures. I am not familiar with the is biblical term.

I have posted many scriptures that refer to those whose bodies have died, but they continue to live.

Jesus went down into the heart of the earth yet His body was dead in the tomb.

Abraham continued to live though his body had died. Luke 16.

Moses had died before entering the promise land and yet the scripture says -

3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah." Matthew 17:3-4

Moses appeared to THEM the disciples.

The disciples recognized both Moses and Elijah, yet they had never met.

Peter offered to build a tabernacle for them, not a TOMB but a tabernacle.

A tabernacle is a dwelling place for the living.

The living Moses and Elijah spoke with Jesus.

This is just one of many scriptures you have been shown by me as well as others on this Forum.

You have chosen to ignore these scriptures.

Now, I ask you to show me the scripture where the phrase "disembodied consciousness" is.


JLB

 

[Butch5]

Please show me the phrase "disembodied consciousness" in the scriptures. I am not familiar with the is biblical term.

I have posted many scriptures that refer to those whose bodies have died, but they continue to live.

Jesus went down into the heart of the earth yet His body was dead in the tomb.

Abraham continued to live though his body had died. Luke 16.

Moses had died before entering the promise land and yet the scripture says -

3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah." Matthew 17:3-4

Moses appeared to THEM the disciples.

The disciples recognized both Moses and Elijah, yet they had never met.

Peter offered to build a tabernacle for them, not a TOMB but a tabernacle.

A tabernacle is a dwelling place for the living.

The living Moses and Elijah spoke with Jesus.

This is just one of many scriptures you have been shown by me as well as others on this Forum.

You have chosen to ignore these scriptures.

Now, I ask you to show me the scripture where the phrase "disembodied consciousness" is.


JLB

Call it whatever you like, spirit. soul, ghost, Just show me where Scripture teaches it. It's interesting that you say I've ignored your passages when I've explained how they don't need to be understood the way you claim. However, I've mentioned several times that the Scriptrues say the dead know nothing and they cannot praise God yet you've made no attempt address them. You want to claim that people are alive when Jesus said it was a vision. I think He has a better understanding of what happened there. You want to claim that Abraham is alive when Scripture says he's dead. I've shown how the rich man and Lazarus cannot be a real story. If you claim it is why did Lazarus go to Abraham's chest and Jesus go to Hades?

None of the passages you've posted say people are live when they are dead, That is an inference you're drawing from the passages. That you cannot find a passage of Scripture that says people are alive while their bodies are dead that should give you reason to stop and think. We can make this real simple, show me how these are wrong.

KJV Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (Ecc 9:5 KJV)

They know nothing and have no memory.

KJV Psalm 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. (Psa 88:10 KJV)

KJV Psalm 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. (Psa 115:17 KJV)

 

[JLB]

Call it whatever you like, spirit. soul, ghost, Just show me where Scripture teaches it. It's interesting that you say I've ignored your passages when I've explained how they don't need to be understood the way you claim. However, I've mentioned several times that the Scriptrues say the dead know nothing and they cannot praise God yet you've made no attempt address them. You want to claim that people are alive when Jesus said it was a vision. I think He has a better understanding of what happened there. You want to claim that Abraham is alive when Scripture says he's dead. I've shown how the rich man and Lazarus cannot be a real story. If you claim it is why did Lazarus go to Abraham's chest and Jesus go to Hades?

None of the passages you've posted say people are live when they are dead, That is an inference you're drawing from the passages. That you cannot find a passage of Scripture that says people are alive while their bodies are dead that should give you reason to stop and think. We can make this real simple, show me how these are wrong.

KJV Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (Ecc 9:5 KJV)

They know nothing and have no memory.

KJV Psalm 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. (Psa 88:10 KJV)

KJV Psalm 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. (Psa 115:17 KJV)

Here is the scripture again -

Moses had died before entering the promise land and yet the scripture says -

3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah." Matthew 17:3-4

Moses appeared to THEM the disciples.

The disciples recognized both Moses and Elijah, yet they had never met.

Peter offered to build a tabernacle for them, not a TOMB but a tabernacle.

A tabernacle is a dwelling place for the living.

The living Moses and Elijah spoke with Jesus.


Moses was not dead, he is clearly alive, though his body is dead.

Abraham spoke and was clearly alive in Luke 16.

Samuel was alive in 1 Samuel 28:15.

The saints in heaven are alive, and will return with Jesus.

A person who is spiritually dead, when they physically die is another matter.

They go to hell, and in hell they do not praise God.

This is shown in Luke 16 with the rich man who was tormented in hell in the flame.

The rich man had memories of his family.


JLB

 

[Butch5]

Here is the scripture again -

Moses had died before entering the promise land and yet the scripture says -

3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah." Matthew 17:3-4

Moses appeared to THEM the disciples.

The disciples recognized both Moses and Elijah, yet they had never met.

Peter offered to build a tabernacle for them, not a TOMB but a tabernacle.

A tabernacle is a dwelling place for the living.

The living Moses and Elijah spoke with Jesus.


Moses was not dead, he is clearly alive, though his body is dead.

Abraham spoke and was clearly alive in Luke 16.

Samuel was alive in 1 Samuel 28:15.

The saints in heaven are alive, and will return with Jesus.

A person who is spiritually dead, when they physically die is another matter.

They go to hell, and in hell they do not praise God.

This is shown in Luke 16 with the rich man who was tormented in hell in the flame.

The rich man had memories of his family.


JLB

It's already been shown that these heed not be understood the way you are understanding them. Your interpretation of each of those contradicts the scriptures. That you've not made an inductive argument from Scripture suggests to me that you're not interested in reconciling the differences. There's no point in repeating the same thing again and again.

KJV Matthew 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. (Mat 17:9 KJV)

KJV 1 Chronicles 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; (1Ch 10:13 KJV)

KJV John 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. (Joh 8:52 KJV)

Please reconcile.

 

[JLB]

It's already been shown that these heed not be understood the way you are understanding them. Your interpretation of each of those contradicts the scriptures. That you've not made an inductive argument from Scripture suggests to me that you're not interested in reconciling the differences. There's no point in repeating the same thing again and again.

KJV Matthew 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. (Mat 17:9 KJV)

KJV 1 Chronicles 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; (1Ch 10:13 KJV)

KJV John 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. (Joh 8:52 KJV)

Please reconcile.

Abraham's body was dead.

Abraham is not a body, Abraham is spirit, soul, and has a body.

Jesus has already told them that God is the God of the living and not the dead.

He declared this at the burning bush to Moses, though Abraham's body had died, Abraham himself was alive and well in Paradise, as we see from the story Jesus taught us in Luke 16.


JLB

 

[Butch5]

Abraham's body was dead.

Abraham is not a body, Abraham is spirit, soul, and has a body.

Jesus has already told them that God is the God of the living and not the dead.

He declared this at the burning bush to Moses, though Abraham's body had died, Abraham himself was alive and well in Paradise, as we see from the story Jesus taught us in Luke 16.

JLB

The passage doesn't say Abraham's body is dead, it says Abraham is dead. The body argument has already been addressed, If Abraham didn't die then neither did Jesus. If that's the case there's no need to be on this forum. However, you/re argument assumes what you have not yet proven, that a man can exist apart from the body.

 

[chessman]

The passage doesn't say Abraham's body is dead, it says Abraham is dead.

And

KJV John 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. (Joh 8:52 KJV)

Actually the referenced passage (John 8:52) records these particular Jews saying "Abraham was dead". Jesus didn't take His teaching from them nor confirm what they said was true. In fact, these specific Jews that Jesus was talking to, were speaking devilish things. Think about what you just said. You realize the very verse that you just quoted with the words "Abraham was dead" highlighed has these also saying Jesus "hast a devil". Wow! Were they only wrong about Jesus having a devil or were they wrong on both accounts?

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your father, you would love me, for I have come forth from God and have come. For I have not come from myself, but that one sent me.43 Why do you not understand my way of speaking? Because you are not able to listen to my message.44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father! [kill Jesus, which they eventually did. And what does that mean? Did Jesus "Go to Hell"? or was Jesus (the 2nd person of the Trinity, asleep in the grave for ~3 days?]

Frankly, I wouldn't recommend forming a doctrine based on their words (their first words "Jesus had a demon" or their second words "Abraham is dead". Jesus said their father was the Devil, remember! Why beleive anything they said.

Concerning Abraham's state then/now, Jesus (who's a much better doctrinal source than these guys) quoted God Quoted the Exodus passage and added to it He's own take on the matter:

Matthew 22:32
“I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob”? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

To which your responses have been; yes, but you are 'pre-supposing' things here. Maybe. But I'm in a better position to say what I am and am not presupposing than you are. I'm telling you, and have before, I've tried on your shoes (that "Abraham is dead") and they don't fit me.

A MUCH prefered way to understand Jesus' words here and elsewhere is ... well, God is Abraham's God (then and now) and Abraham is NOT really dead body and soul. His body might be, but his soul is not.

Yet these Devilish Jews claimed he was. But that's just my presupposition, I suppose.

BTW, I've followed what you said about 'Samuel' during Saul's visit to the witch. And I think you are right, those were demons she and Saul saw. But be consistent. If they were demons (and thus don't use that verse for doctrine building) then weren't these Jews speaking as their father (The Devil)? Why use John 8:52 for your doctinre? It's not even Jesus' words. They can from the devil, through these Jews.

Continuing with John 8's message:

48 The Jews [those same devilish Jews that said the words you bolded that supported your idea (supposition) of Abraham's condition now] answered and said to him, “Do we not correctly say that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus replied, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me! 50 But I do not seek my own glory. There is one who seeks and judges! 51 Truly, truly I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never experience death forever.”

Really? Abraham didn't experience 'death'? Yes really:

Matthew 10:28 (Jesus words on the matter)
Lexham English Bible (LEB)
28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul,

Continuing with John 8 (or backing up a little to what Jesus just got through saying to them):

John 8:51

51 Truly, truly I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never experience death forever.”
The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you [Jesus] have a demon! Abraham and the prophets died [Really? Did God kill Abraham's soul? No!], and you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death forever.’

KJV John 8:52
Please reconcile.

That's easy. Those Jews were wrong and lying like their 'father'. And Jesus said they were wrong. In my opinion.

 

[Butch5]

And


Actually the referenced passage (John 8:52) records these particular Jews saying "Abraham was dead". Jesus didn't take His teaching from them nor confirm what they said was true. In fact, these specific Jews that Jesus was talking to, were speaking devilish things. Think about what you just said. You realize the very verse that you just quoted with the words "Abraham was dead" highlighed has these also saying Jesus "hast a devil". Wow! Were they only wrong about Jesus having a devil or were they wrong on both accounts?

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your father, you would love me, for I have come forth from God and have come. For I have not come from myself, but that one sent me.43 Why do you not understand my way of speaking? Because you are not able to listen to my message.44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father! [kill Jesus, which they eventually did. And what does that mean? Did Jesus "Go to Hell"? or was Jesus (the 2nd person of the Trinity, asleep in the grave for ~3 days?]

Frankly, I wouldn't recommend forming a doctrine based on their words (their first words "Jesus had a demon" or their second words "Abraham is dead". Jesus said their father was the Devil, remember! Why beleive anything they said.

Concerning Abraham's state then/now, Jesus (who's a much better doctrinal source than these guys) quoted God Quoted the Exodus passage and added to it He's own take on the matter:

Matthew 22:32
“I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob”? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

To which your responses have been; yes, but you are 'pre-supposing' things here. Maybe. But I'm in a better position to say what I am and am not presupposing than you are. I'm telling you, and have before, I've tried on your shoes (that "Abraham is dead") and they don't fit me.

A MUCH prefered way to understand Jesus' words here and elsewhere is ... well, God is Abraham's God (then and now) and Abraham is NOT really dead body and soul. His body might be, but his soul is not.

Yet these Devilish Jews claimed he was. But that's just my presupposition, I suppose.

BTW, I've followed what you said about 'Samuel' during Saul's visit to the witch. And I think you are right, those were demons she and Saul saw. But be consistent. If they were demons (and thus don't use that verse for doctrine building) then weren't these Jews speaking as their father (The Devil)? Why use John 8:52 for your doctinre? It's not even Jesus' words. They can from the devil, through these Jews.

Continuing with John 8's message:

48 The Jews [those same devilish Jews that said the words you bolded that supported your idea (supposition) of Abraham's condition now] answered and said to him, “Do we not correctly say that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus replied, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me! 50 But I do not seek my own glory. There is one who seeks and judges! 51 Truly, truly I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never experience death forever.”

Really? Abraham didn't experience 'death'? Yes really:

Matthew 10:28 (Jesus words on the matter)
Lexham English Bible (LEB)
28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul,

Continuing with John 8 (or backing up a little to what Jesus just got through saying to them):

John 8:51

51 Truly, truly I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never experience death forever.”
The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you [Jesus] have a demon! Abraham and the prophets died [Really? Did God kill Abraham's soul? No!], and you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death forever.’



That's easy. Those Jews were wrong and lying like their 'father'. And Jesus said they were wrong. In my opinion.

Hi Chessman,

Firstly, I don't form doctrine on a single verse. Secondly, you didn't reconcile them you simple said the Jews were wrong. Can you show me from Scripture that they wrong?

Thirdly, I'd like to ask, you said you'd take Jesus' word on whether or not Abraham was dead, will you? If it disagrees with your position will you accept it?

In the passage Jesus is speaking of the Resurrection. He didn't say Abraham is alive right now, He said, "As touching the resurrection."

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. (Mat 22:29-32 KJV)

26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err. (Mar 12:26-27 KJV)

35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. (Luk 20:35-38 KJV)

Jesus specifically states that the statement pertains to the resurrection. He didn't say anything at all about the state at death. I've posted this before but it seems to get ignored. It seems people want to apply God's words outside the way in which Jesus applied them.

What about Moses? Will you accept his word?

7 And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, an hundred threescore and fifteen years.
8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people. (Gen 25:7-8 KJV)

You posted a few passages about the "soul". However, if you look at how the Scriptures use the word soul you'll find that it doesn't mean a disembodied consciousness. According to Genesis 2:7 a soul requires a body.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:7 KJV)

According to this passage a soul consists of a body and the breath/spirit of God. A soul needs these two things to be a soul. Are you aware that the Scriptures call fish and animals souls? It says they are souls not that they have souls. Just like Adam, it says he "Became" a soul not that he has a soul.

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought fort (Gen 1:20-21 KJV)


19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. (Gen 2:19 KJV)

OR, and whatsoever Adam called every living soul, that was the name thereof. The words I bolded are the Hebrew word for soul "Nephesh".

If you do a word study of the word soul, you'll that souls eat and drink (according to Jesus), they are buried, they are buried with their swords, they die, and so on. A soul, according to the Scriptures is a living being. There are some places where the word soul is used metaphorically, particularly in the Psalms, but the concrete usage of the word includes a body.

 

[Butch5]

And


Actually the referenced passage (John 8:52) records these particular Jews saying "Abraham was dead". Jesus didn't take His teaching from them nor confirm what they said was true. In fact, these specific Jews that Jesus was talking to, were speaking devilish things. Think about what you just said. You realize the very verse that you just quoted with the words "Abraham was dead" highlighed has these also saying Jesus "hast a devil". Wow! Were they only wrong about Jesus having a devil or were they wrong on both accounts?

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your father, you would love me, for I have come forth from God and have come. For I have not come from myself, but that one sent me.43 Why do you not understand my way of speaking? Because you are not able to listen to my message.44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father! [kill Jesus, which they eventually did. And what does that mean? Did Jesus "Go to Hell"? or was Jesus (the 2nd person of the Trinity, asleep in the grave for ~3 days?]

Frankly, I wouldn't recommend forming a doctrine based on their words (their first words "Jesus had a demon" or their second words "Abraham is dead". Jesus said their father was the Devil, remember! Why beleive anything they said.

Concerning Abraham's state then/now, Jesus (who's a much better doctrinal source than these guys) quoted God Quoted the Exodus passage and added to it He's own take on the matter:

Matthew 22:32
“I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob”? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

To which your responses have been; yes, but you are 'pre-supposing' things here. Maybe. But I'm in a better position to say what I am and am not presupposing than you are. I'm telling you, and have before, I've tried on your shoes (that "Abraham is dead") and they don't fit me.

A MUCH prefered way to understand Jesus' words here and elsewhere is ... well, God is Abraham's God (then and now) and Abraham is NOT really dead body and soul. His body might be, but his soul is not.

Yet these Devilish Jews claimed he was. But that's just my presupposition, I suppose.

BTW, I've followed what you said about 'Samuel' during Saul's visit to the witch. And I think you are right, those were demons she and Saul saw. But be consistent. If they were demons (and thus don't use that verse for doctrine building) then weren't these Jews speaking as their father (The Devil)? Why use John 8:52 for your doctinre? It's not even Jesus' words. They can from the devil, through these Jews.

Continuing with John 8's message:

48 The Jews [those same devilish Jews that said the words you bolded that supported your idea (supposition) of Abraham's condition now] answered and said to him, “Do we not correctly say that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus replied, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me! 50 But I do not seek my own glory. There is one who seeks and judges! 51 Truly, truly I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never experience death forever.”

Really? Abraham didn't experience 'death'? Yes really:

Matthew 10:28 (Jesus words on the matter)
Lexham English Bible (LEB)
28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul,

Continuing with John 8 (or backing up a little to what Jesus just got through saying to them):

John 8:51

51 Truly, truly I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never experience death forever.”
The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you [Jesus] have a demon! Abraham and the prophets died [Really? Did God kill Abraham's soul? No!], and you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death forever.’



That's easy. Those Jews were wrong and lying like their 'father'. And Jesus said they were wrong. In my opinion.

Hi Chessman,

Firstly, I don't form doctrine on a single verse. Secondly, you didn't reconcile them you simple said the Jews were wrong. Can you show me from Scripture that they wrong?

Thirdly, I'd like to ask, you said you'd take Jesus' word on whether or not Abraham was dead, will you? If it disagrees with your position will you accept it?

In the passage Jesus is speaking of the Resurrection. He didn't say Abraham is alive right now, He said, "As touching the resurrection."

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. (Mat 22:29-32 KJV)

26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err. (Mar 12:26-27 KJV)

35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. (Luk 20:35-38 KJV)

Jesus specifically states that the statement pertains to the resurrection. He didn't say anything at all about the state at death. I've posted this before but it seems to get ignored. It seems people want to apply God's words outside the way in which Jesus applied them.

What about Moses? Will you accept his word?

7 And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, an hundred threescore and fifteen years.
8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people. (Gen 25:7-8 KJV)

You posted a few passages about the "soul". However, if you look at how the Scriptures use the word soul you'll find that it doesn't mean a disembodied consciousness. According to Genesis 2:7 a soul requires a body.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:7 KJV)

According to this passage a soul consists of a body and the breath/spirit of God. A soul needs these two things to be a soul. Are you aware that the Scriptures call fish and animals souls? It says they are souls not that they have souls. Just like Adam, it says he "Became" a soul not that he has a soul.

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought fort (Gen 1:20-21 KJV)


19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. (Gen 2:19 KJV)

OR, and whatsoever Adam called every living soul, that was the name thereof. The words I bolded are the Hebrew word for soul "Nephesh".

If you do a word study of the word soul, you'll that souls eat and drink (according to Jesus), they are buried, they are buried with their swords, they die, and so on. A soul, according to the Scriptures is a living being. There are some places where the word soul is used metaphorically, particularly in the Psalms, but the concrete usage of the word includes a body.

Hi Chessman,

I've been thinking about this passage and realized something else that doesn't fit with what you guys are claiming. You guys claim this passage proves that Abraham is alive. From what I see that's been stated here, is that the righteous, when they die are supposedly alive in Heaven and the wicked are alive in Hades or someplace else. So, in effect both the dead wicked and the dead righteous are alive somewhere. In the statement to Moses that Jesus quoted it says He is the God of the living not of the dead. Who are the dead? Apparently no one because you guys claim that all are alive either in Heaven or some other place. So, the problem you have is that if God is the God of the living and even the wicked are alive then your interpretation would make God the God of the wicked also. According to Jesus there are two groups the living and the dead, God is the God of one group, the living, but not the God of the other group, the dead. However, with the doctrines being argued there is only one group, the living. Whether they are righteous or wicked they are still alive and part of the group the living. So, the statement cannot even be applied.

 

[JLB]

The passage doesn't say Abraham's body is dead, it says Abraham is dead. The body argument has already been addressed, If Abraham didn't die then neither did Jesus. If that's the case there's no need to be on this forum. However, you/re argument assumes what you have not yet proven, that a man can exist apart from the body.

Brother,

There is no argument.

There is only the truth. The truth is found in God's word.

Specifically Matthew 17 -

3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah." Matthew 17:3-4

Moses spoke with Jesus.

Moses body was dead.

Peter recognized Moses.

Peter offered to build a tabernacle for them, both Moses and Elijah.

The scripture teaches us the truth.

The truth is Moses was alive yet did not have a physical body.

Moses did have a recognizable form of a human that the scripture identified as Moses.


The only argument here is you arguing with the truth of the scripture.

You are trying to convince the truth that you are right and the truth is wrong.

That is the only argument.

God bless you.


JLB

 

[Butch5]

Brother,

There is no argument.

There is only the truth. The truth is found in God's word.

Specifically Matthew 17 -

3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah." Matthew 17:3-4

Moses spoke with Jesus.

Moses body was dead.

Peter recognized Moses.

Peter offered to build a tabernacle for them, both Moses and Elijah.

The scripture teaches us the truth.

The truth is Moses was alive yet did not have a physical body.

Moses did have a recognizable form of a human that the scripture identified as Moses.


The only argument here is you arguing with the truth of the scripture.

You are trying to convince the truth that you are right and the truth is wrong.

That is the only argument.

God bless you.


JLB

You're right about one thing there is the truth of God's word. The question is why won't you accept it? Jesus said it was vision.

 

[JLB]

You're right about one thing there is the truth of God's word. The question is why won't you accept it? Jesus said it was vision.

Yes, they visually saw Moses and Elijah, who were there with them.

They spoke with Jesus. They were in fact alive.

They recognized them and offered to build a tabernacle for them, as they were tangibly present.


Just as Samuel appeared to Saul and gave him instructions about the future and his death and the death of his sons. 1 Samuel 28:15-19

Just as John was caught up to heaven and saw saints alive there and recorded it for us.


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

Mat 8:21
And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.

Mat 8:22
But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

It is important to consider the message contained in the above in any biblical hypothesis of what it means to be dead vs alive.

 

[chessman]

Firstly, I don't form doctrine on a single verse.

I know. I didn’t say that you did, nor do I think you have or would. I have a lot of respect for your posts. In fact, I choose my wording in my reply carefully for that very reason. Maybe I could have been more clear, IDK.

I respect your ‘take’ on many different topics. I’ve learned from you. I’m simply pushing back a little on this very, very specific point/topic/Scripture with respect to John 8 (not really any other passages at this time).

I typically only respond/reply/question others on areas of disagreement (like I did with what I perceived you were saying about Eph 3:15). Really not so much to argue for argument’s sake. But rather because I might have missed some nuisance in a member’s post. I might be wrong in my theology/doctrine and they might be right.

Anyway, I said:
“Were they only wrong about Jesus having a devil or were they wrong on both accounts? Frankly, I wouldn't recommend forming a doctrine based on their words (their first words "Jesus had a demon" or their second words "Abraham is dead".

By “based on their words” I didn’t mean you were using that passage exclusively or only this one verse only in your overall argument. My point was more specific. That one statement you highlighted “Abraham is dead”, Jesus specifically called a lie. I feel I made a good case for that and your reply really didn't say much about it.

Therefore if you (or I) hold a doctrine that also teaches “Abraham is dead”, it must also be a wrong doctrine/understanding. My doctrine is that Abraham’s body is dead, sure. But that does NOT mean that his entire soul is also "dead". We both agree that his body is dead (and Jesus did as well). So if there statement “Abraham is dead” was/is a lie (I I thin it is), then the conclusion is ….? I say that in some way Abraham is NOT dead.

Plus I mentioned that I agreed with your take on another passage that you’ve discussed (2 Sam 7). I don’t see how that passage either supports or detracts from your doctrine (or mine, I suppose) one way or the other. I guess either doctrine fits into that ‘Samuel’ passage. But, on the other hand. If what those Pharisees said about Abraham is in fact a lie. It pretty much defeats your argument (at least to me it does).
When Jesus specifically calls the Pharisees take on Abraham’s post death condition a lie (Abraham is dead in ~33 A.D.) That’s pretty darn direct, to me. Abraham is NOT dead.

 

[chessman]

. Secondly, you didn't reconcile them you simple said the Jews were wrong. Can you show me from Scripture that they wrong?

Yes. I did earlier. Here it is again. Maybe you could speak to it directly rather than saying "it's about the ressurection" because Jesus had a seperate coversation or two or three on another day about the ressurection to another group of Jews. (but it's okay if you'd rather not, it's up to you of course.):
44 You [The ones, the Pharisees, that said “Abraham is dead”] are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father!
[which is to lie, lie, lie (among other things). And if we didn’t know that already, Jesus repeats these facts about their ‘father’ for us here.]
That one was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand firm in the truth, because truth is not in him. Whenever he speaks the lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I am telling the truth, you do not believe me.
[My point is the whole context of the discussion is about lies versus truths (and murder). And Jesus saying that these Jews were lying/wrong.]
48 The Jews answered and said to him, “Do we not correctly say that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus replied, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me!
[Their lie #1, Jesus’ truth about their lie #1. That said Jesus had a demon. That was a lie. They were wrong. Jesus didn’t have a demon. What other statement did they make to Jesus?]
52 The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon [They were not convinced they were wrong. It’s a hard thing to be wrong sometimes.] ! Abraham and the prophets died, and you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death forever.
Their second lie. Jesus’ second corrective truth. I see no other way to understand this whole conversation between Jesus and these particular Pharisees. And I’ve tried looking at it from your perspective. They lied when they said “Abraham and the prophets died”. And Jesus corrected them with “he will never taste death forever”. And what’s more, not just for Abraham but for “anyone [that] keeps my word”.
It’s really just that simple and specific of a point that I’m making. That plus Jesus’ teaching in Matt 10:28 (Body/Soul) and indeed the Gen account of Adam’s creation are very clear to me given a human is a body/soul combo. I have no motivation to think otherwise, and I’ve never seen any Scriptures posted that conflicts with my understanding, including all of your posts.
More on your counter to my point above later…

​

 

[chessman]

Thirdly, I'd like to ask, you said you'd take Jesus' word on whether or not Abraham was dead, will you? If it disagrees with your position will you accept it?

Yes. Yes.
But I’m confused. I’m not quite sure why you go on to Mark 22:29-32, Mar 12:26-27, and Luke 20:35-38 to counter the point I was making. Are you suggesting that’s a parallel account to the John 8 discussion Jesus had with the Pharisees? It’s not. There Jesus was talking to another group of Jews with a LOT different take on the afterlife. Pharisees versus Sadducees.
Did you have anything else to counter my “they were lying/wrong” point about “Abraham is dead” you quoted from John 8:52? other than:

In the passage Jesus is speaking of the Resurrection. He didn't say Abraham is alive right now, He said, "As touching the resurrection."

That’s not in the John 8 section of Scripture and it’s a whole other conversation with a whole other group of Jews.
But as for those passages concerning Jesus and his discussion with the Sadducees, I agree. There is life after the resurrection. Not sure how that’s on topic of the time period between physical death and the resurrection however (the OP topic).

 

[chessman]

(Mat 22:29-32 KJV)
(Mar 12:26-27 KJV)
(Luk 20:35-38 KJV)
Jesus specifically states that the statement pertains to the resurrection. He didn't say anything at all about the state at death. I've posted this before but it seems to get ignored. It seems people want to apply God's words outside the way in which Jesus applied them.

Okay. I buy that. I know that about that conversation. But He did say the Pharissees statement about Abraham in John 8 “Abraham is dead” was a lie. That’s pretty significant to me.
I’m simply saying that based on the lie (Lie #2) in John 8:52, the idea that physical death is all there is until the resurrection of a ‘person’ is contradicted. Plus, it contradicts Matt 10:28, in my opinion.

What about Moses? Will you accept his word?
7 And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, an hundred threescore and fifteen years.
8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people. (Gen 25:7-8 KJV).

Yes, I accept Gen 25. Moses records Abraham’s death at the age of ~175 years “long” years. First, how does that prove or disprove your doctrine? Didn’t you just get through saying that (Mat 22:29-32 KJV), (Mar 12:26-27 KJV), (Luk 20:35-38 KJV) “didn't say anything at all about the state of the soul in-between death and the resurrection? Are you now suggesting that Gen 25 does teach something about the soul in-between physical death and the resurrection (the OP topic)? I’d like to hear your point(s) relative to that, if that’s the case.
I have a question for you about Gen 25:7-8, since you mention it. What do you think Moses means by (after Abraham’s death) he “was gathered to his people”? Was he gathered to the bones of his people, i.e. buried? Are ‘bones’ people in-between death and resurrection or are they just bones/dust?

According to Genesis 2:7 a soul requires a body.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:7 KJV)
According to this passage a soul consists of a body and the breath/spirit of God. A soul needs these two things to be a soul. Are you aware that the Scriptures call fish and animals souls? It says they are souls not that they have souls. Just like Adam, it says he "Became" a soul not that he has a soul.

First, let me answer your question as best I can. Yes, I’m aware that the bible calls living fish and living beasts souls. I don’t really want to get side-tracked however concerning whether Abraham is merely physically dead (his dust is dead) or is both his dust and his soul dead, however. Unless of course that’s all you have to say about John 8:52.
7 And the LORD God formed _Man (M)_ of the dust (D) of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the _Breath of Life (BoL)__; and _M__ became a Living Soul (LS). (Gen 2:7 KJV)
First I would note than when God formed Man of dust and His Breath of Life , then Man became a living soul.
Not a dead sould, but a living soul.
Logically/mathematically that verse could be expressed God formed M = D + BoL; M = LS.
Man equals Dust plus the Breath of Life; (plus the work of God). I agree. I have no conflict with that.
Logically one could even say Man (The man Adam) = living Soul in Gen 2:7. At least Adam was living at that time. I agree a living Man is a living soul is Dust plus Breath of Life. I mean that’s what it says about Man’s creation, sure. I have no conflict with any of that. Nor, I suppose, do you. But then you say:
“A soul needs these two things to be a soul.” Hmm, That’s S = BoL + D (I suppose is what you mean, you don’t say what those two things are that are needed but I assume that’s what you mean. But are you speaking of a living soul or a dead soul? Cause this text only teaches what it takes to create a living soul. What does it say about a dead soul? Nothing, really. One way or the other.
This Scripture teaches that Man (Adam) needed two things (three really if you include God’s creative act which I do. I’m no evolutionist.) to be a living soul.
I have no idea how you say this Scripture teaches “A soul needs these two things to be a soul.” That’s because it’s not a logical derived statement based on this passage. This passage teaches what is needed for man to become a living soul. The OP is about Jesus’ dead soul.
A living soul is Dust plus the Breath of Life (I’d include God’s creative work as well since that’s what the text says). All three come together to form a living soul. Now, what’s a dead soul look like? I don’t know. This passage doesn’t actually say what a dead soul is (if anything). If I had to speculate, I’d speculate that if you remove the “dust” (the biological material) from a living soul, you indeed have a dead soul. You do NOT have a living soul anymore you have what we are discussing here, a dead soul.
M = D + BoL and if you take away (subtract) the Dust (D) from a man and put it in the grave, what’s left then?
M – D = D + BoL – D = BoL. Indeed to call what’s left a “living soul” is no longer accurate.
But calling what is left (BoL) a dead soul, maybe is not to speculative?
If my math is right, that is. Correct me if I’m wrong here, but if a living soul is Dust plus the Breath of Life and you take away the Dust, you don’t have zero, you have the Breath of Life remaining. Else, you’ve got murders (like the Devil for example) able to do things he’s simply not capable of doing.
I know at least one Scripture that’s helpful (at least it is to me).
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28 ESV)
Aren’t you saying that “Abraham is dead” means that when Abraham’s body died there was nothing left of Abraham (until the ressurection)? [Studying the meaning of ressurection is also interesting].
But that’s simply not accurate to the text of Gen 2:7 or John 8.
Let’s assume for the sake of argument that “the Body” is what’s meant by “The Dust”. (I mean after all Gen 2:7 says God breathed the Breath of Life into Adam’s nostrils and the nostrils are part of the body.
Therefore, “to kill the body” is like death (i.e. Abraham “died” at the age of 175 years several thousand years ago). What’s left of Abraham now, based on these two passages Gen 2:7 and Matt 10:28? The Breath of Life is left, not zero. Plus, you’ve got the fact that not even murder destroys the soul. It might very well kill the living soul creating a “dead soul”. But did it “destroy” Abraham? No way. You still have the Abraham’s Breath of Life remaining.

There are some places where the word soul is used metaphorically, particularly in the Psalms, but the concrete usage of the word includes a body.

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28 ESV)
What constitutes a “concrete usage” versus a metaphorical usage to you? Do you think Jesus was speaking metaphorically to the disciples in Matt 10:28? I don’t think they were metaphorically persecuted and killed. I think they were concretely persecuted unto death. AND I think their Breath of Life remained even though they were no longer a “living soul”.
Very likely/ironically by some of the very same Pharisees that killed Jesus and that He was speaking to in John 8 when He said: ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death forever.

 

[Butch5]

I know. I didn’t say that you did, nor do I think you have or would. I have a lot of respect for your posts. In fact, I choose my wording in my reply carefully for that very reason. Maybe I could have been more clear, IDK.

I respect your ‘take’ on many different topics. I’ve learned from you. I’m simply pushing back a little on this very, very specific point/topic/Scripture with respect to John 8 (not really any other passages at this time).

I typically only respond/reply/question others on areas of disagreement (like I did with what I perceived you were saying about Eph 3:15). Really not so much to argue for argument’s sake. But rather because I might have missed some nuisance in a member’s post. I might be wrong in my theology/doctrine and they might be right.

Anyway, I said:
“Were they only wrong about Jesus having a devil or were they wrong on both accounts? Frankly, I wouldn't recommend forming a doctrine based on their words (their first words "Jesus had a demon" or their second words "Abraham is dead".

By “based on their words” I didn’t mean you were using that passage exclusively or only this one verse only in your overall argument. My point was more specific. That one statement you highlighted “Abraham is dead”, Jesus specifically called a lie. I feel I made a good case for that and your reply really didn't say much about it.

Therefore if you (or I) hold a doctrine that also teaches “Abraham is dead”, it must also be a wrong doctrine/understanding. My doctrine is that Abraham’s body is dead, sure. But that does NOT mean that his entire soul is also "dead". We both agree that his body is dead (and Jesus did as well). So if there statement “Abraham is dead” was/is a lie (I I thin it is), then the conclusion is ….? I say that in some way Abraham is NOT dead.

Plus I mentioned that I agreed with your take on another passage that you’ve discussed (2 Sam 7). I don’t see how that passage either supports or detracts from your doctrine (or mine, I suppose) one way or the other. I guess either doctrine fits into that ‘Samuel’ passage. But, on the other hand. If what those Pharisees said about Abraham is in fact a lie. It pretty much defeats your argument (at least to me it does).
When Jesus specifically calls the Pharisees take on Abraham’s post death condition a lie (Abraham is dead in ~33 A.D.) That’s pretty darn direct, to me. Abraham is NOT dead.

Hi Chessman,

Thanks, I appreciate the kind words. I'm a little confuse as to where you believe Jesus call their statement about Abraham a lie.

You said, "My doctrine is that Abraham’s body is dead, sure. But that does NOT mean that his entire soul is also "dead". We both agree that his body is dead (and Jesus did as well). So if there statement “Abraham is dead” was/is a lie (I I thin it is), then the conclusion is ….? I say that in some way Abraham is NOT dead."

According to Gen 2:7 what is left to be alive?