Did Jesus Rise On Sunday ?

[tobewell]

If you mean in your home before a sabbath begins this would include all sabbaths, not just the 7th day sabbath. The first day of unleavened bread is a sabbath, a special, or high sabbath.
So that doesn't prove that He died on the 6th day, Friday.
Every single year it is the same no matter what day the sabbath falls on.

"Preparation day" for the Saturday Sabbath is always Friday day. God commanded that no work be done on the Sabbath and it begins Friday night when the first stars rise.

 

[tobewell]

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/47555983/...crucifixion-researchers-believe/#.VJIuwEdOKrU

Earthquake soil testing done to pinpoint the year of the Crucifixion.

"To analyze earthquake activity in the region, geologist Jefferson Williams of Supersonic Geophysical and colleagues Markus Schwab and Achim Brauer of the German Research Center for Geosciences studied three cores from the beach of the Ein Gedi Spa adjacent to the Dead Sea.

Varves, which are annual layers of deposition in the sediments, reveal that at least two major earthquakes affected the core: a widespread earthquake in 31 B.C. and a seismic event that happened sometime between the years 26 and 36.

The latter period occurred during “the years when Pontius Pilate was procurator of Judea and when the earthquake of the Gospel of Matthew is historically constrained,” Williams said."

 

[tim-from-pa]

"Preparation day" for the Saturday Sabbath is always Friday day. God commanded that no work be done on the Sabbath and it begins Friday night when the first stars rise.

I think you mean the Jewish tradition of seeing 3 visible stars, not rising.

 

[tobewell]

I think you mean the Jewish tradition of seeing 3 visible stars, not rising.

Yes. Thanks for the correction.

The Seventh Day Adventist website explains how they also stop work on Friday evening in observance of Saturday Sabbath.

http://www.adventist.org/en/informa...ts/documents/article/go/0/sabbath-observance/

They differ on the appearance of the three stars.

"4) Time Frame of the Sabbath. Biblical Data: The Sabbath starts at the end of the sixth day of the week and lasts one day, from evening to evening (Gen 1; Mark 1:32). This time coincides with the time of sunset. Wherever a clear delineation of the time of sunset is difficult to ascertain, the Sabbath keeper will begin the Sabbath at the end of the day as marked by the diminishing light."

 

[Sinthesis]

Nisan 15 is a sabbath no matter what day of the week it falls on, which means some weeks have more than one sabbath. Belief in a Friday crucifixion also locks one into only a couple of compatible years for the crucifixion, all of which fail the tests of scripture. Jesus' resurrection was appropriately on the Jewish first day of the week, which in a Wednesday crucifixion scenario also happens to be the third day according to the counting of the Omar. The third day!

 

[TOG]

Scripture was written from a Jewish perspective. Their days were calculated off the moon.

No, the days were not calculated "off the moon". Their months were calculated based on the sighting of the new moon. The years were calculated based on the ripness of the barley crop and their days were calculated based on the time of sunset (not the visibility of stars, that's a later rabbinic tradition). If you're going to use the Hebrew method of time keeping to support your views, the least you can do is to know how it actually works.

Day 1 - Christ dies at three and they rush to entomb Him prior to dusk because it was against Jewish law to be out after dusk. Why? Because when the first stars appear on Friday night, it is the start of Day 2 the Saturday Sabbath.

If we assume a Friday crucifixion, as you believe, then sunset on Friday didn't start the second day, but the first night. Let's count it according to the traditional method:

Friday from burial to sunset - First day
Sunset Friday to sunrise Saturday - First night
Sunrise Saturday to sunset Saturday - Second day
Sunset Saturday to sunrise Sunday - Second night

The women came to the tomb while it was still dark, i.e. before sunrise, during the second night according to the traditional way of counting. Adding Sunday as the third day conflicts with what Scripture says about when they came to the tomb, as well as with logic. There is simply no way of getting three days and nights from Friday to Sunday before sunrise without making things up and twisting the clear meaning of Scripture to make it fit a man made tradition.

You infer "death" according to a tradition you wish to establish.

First of all, I'm not trying to establish any tradition. I read the Bible the way it is written. It is you who are stretching things and asking people to jump through mental hoops to support your tradition. The fact that it is also the tradition of most other Christians doesn't make it any less of a tradition nor does it make it any less wrong.

"They" didn't. God established their calculation of days and He commanded that a day began at the rising of the first stars.

It was the rabbis who commanded that, not God.

The TOG​

 

[tobewell]

You think the Early Church, taught by Jewish Apostle's got the day wrong that Christ Resurrected. They communally worshiped on Sunday because that was the day their Lord Resurrected.

You're right instead because you need to pack 21st Century time keeping into Scripture in an attempt to believe that you can always read Scripture and it will read like a modern book and fit into your modern way of thinking and day/hour calculation. For some reason you need to find a way for Christ to be buried for three 24 hour days or Scripture isn't correct.

Christ spoke and the Apostles had to ask Him for clarification.

Christ told the Apostles to build up His Church. He never instructed them to write a book. They wrote a book and they instructed and built up His Church with it.

God commanded that the Jews use a lunar calendar and He commanded when observance of festivals would begin.

 

[tobewell]

Reading Scripture at face value would you know this about Judaism:

"A lunar year of 354 days is about 11 days shorter than the solar year, i.e. one revolution of the earth around the sun, which corresponds to the cycle of the seasons. If the Jewish calendar were based exclusively on the lunar year, Pesach (15 Nisan) would fall in the spring in one year, in the winter a few years later, then in the autumn, then in the summer and – after about 33 years – in the spring again.

But the Torah says that Pesach must be celebrated in the spring (be-chodesh ha-aviv, Shemot [Exodus] 13:4), and so the average length of the Jewish year must be adjusted to the solar year.

This is achieved by adding an entire month about every three years: In each cycle of 19 years, the 3rd, 6th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th and 19th years are leap years, the others are common years.

For example, 5755 was a leap year because it was the 17th year in the 303rd cycle of 19 years: 5755/19 = 302 + 17/19. (This is something that you can calculateonline.)"

 

[tobewell]

Nisan 15 is a sabbath no matter what day of the week it falls on, which means some weeks have more than one sabbath. Belief in a Friday crucifixion also locks one into only a couple of compatible years for the crucifixion, all of which fail the tests of scripture. Jesus' resurrection was appropriately on the Jewish first day of the week, which in a Wednesday crucifixion scenario also happens to be the third day according to the counting of the Omar. The third day!

http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/m_calint.htm

 

[tim-from-pa]

Reading Scripture at face value would you know this about Judaism:

"A lunar year of 354 days is about 11 days shorter than the solar year, i.e. one revolution of the earth around the sun, which corresponds to the cycle of the seasons. If the Jewish calendar were based exclusively on the lunar year, Pesach (15 Nisan) would fall in the spring in one year, in the winter a few years later, then in the autumn, then in the summer and – after about 33 years – in the spring again.

But the Torah says that Pesach must be celebrated in the spring (be-chodesh ha-aviv, Shemot [Exodus] 13:4), and so the average length of the Jewish year must be adjusted to the solar year.

This is achieved by adding an entire month about every three years: In each cycle of 19 years, the 3rd, 6th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th and 19th years are leap years, the others are common years.

For example, 5755 was a leap year because it was the 17th year in the 303rd cycle of 19 years: 5755/19 = 302 + 17/19. (This is something that you can calculateonline.)"

Yes, many of us here know this about the Jewish calendar, which BTW, is also somewhat subject to interpretation and traditions of (Jewish) men. I believe the actual lunar month starts at the first sighting of the thin waxing crescent in Israel (c.f. Rev 12:1 describing an astronomical position of Christ's birth in mid-September). Also Christ's words "no man knows the day or hour" is a reference to new moon sighting that they understood in their culture, when people knew about when the moon would appear but had to watch when it would actually appear. Thus Rosh Hoshanna was the only feast of Leviticus they did not know the day or hour it would begin. Also, the new year started Nisan 1 at the sighting of the new moon, and when the barley was in the proper ripened state. Otherwise, they'd sporadically add a leap month if it was not ready yet. That's how they did it back in the bible days.

Today they calculate the new moon due to the diaspora so that every Jew would remain on the "same page" so-to-speak the world over, so sighting is not done now. It's not a perfectly true lunar position but I must admit a very good lunar algorithm. But now that they are back in Israel they really ought to get off their behinds and start looking again. Human nature being what it is may be too lazy to change things when it's comfortable. Only certain groups, such as the Karaites, bother to look any longer.

 

[TOG]

You think the Early Church, taught by Jewish Apostle's got the day wrong that Christ Resurrected.

I really wish you would stop misrepresenting what I've said. I never said they got the day of the resurrection wrong. I said you (and many others) got the day of the crucifixion wrong.

They communally worshiped on Sunday because that was the day their Lord Resurrected.

That's a later explanation about why Christians worship on Sunday. Sunday didn't become the official day of worship for Christians until the beginning of the 4th century. I don't remember whether it was in this thread or the Christmas thread, but you yourself said we shouldn't impose modern customs and doctrines on the Bible. But that's exactly what you've been doing. You're taking a day (in this thread) and a holidy (in the other thread) that weren't observed until centuries later, and reading them into the Bible. The book of Acts tells us that they met in homes every day of the week, not just one.

And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they did not cease teaching and preaching that the Christ is Jesus. (Acts 5:42 ESV)

And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved. (Acts 2:46-47)​

They all kept the Sabbath on the seventh day, just as Scripture commands, until about 80 AD, when the Jewish tax was imposed as a punishment on the Jews for their rebellion against Rome. Then some Gentile Christians started gathering on Sunday, so that they could say "Look... We're not Jews. We worship on the same day as Romans do", and thereby avoid the tax. Most Christians, however, kept the Sabbath and they did so until the beginning of the 4th century, when the Pagan emporor Constantine made Sunday the official day by law.

You're right instead because you need to pack 21st Century time keeping into Scripture in an attempt to believe that you can always read Scripture and it will read like a modern book and fit into your modern way of thinking and day/hour calculation.

I know exactly how the timekeeping worked, and I'm not trying to impose anything modern on the Scriptures. According to the Hebrew method of keeping time, there are 3 days and 3 nights from sundown Wednesday until sundown Saturday, but only 1 day and 2 nights from sundown Friday to sunrise Sunday. Besides, the method of time keeping is irrelevant. This isn't talking about what day of the week it was, but about a period of time.

For some reason you need to find a way for Christ to be buried for three 24 hour days or Scripture isn't correct.

And you need to find a way of fitting 3 days and 3 nights between Friday evening and sunrise Sunday, or your tradition is wrong. Face it. Jesus prophesied that he would be in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights. Scripture is correct. Tradition, in this case, is wrong.

Christ told the Apostles to build up His Church. He never instructed them to write a book. They wrote a book and they instructed and built up His Church with it.

What book was that?

The TOG​

 

[TOG]

Reading Scripture at face value would you know this about Judaism:

"A lunar year of 354 days is about 11 days shorter than the solar year, i.e. one revolution of the earth around the sun, which corresponds to the cycle of the seasons. If the Jewish calendar were based exclusively on the lunar year, Pesach (15 Nisan) would fall in the spring in one year, in the winter a few years later, then in the autumn, then in the summer and – after about 33 years – in the spring again.

But the Torah says that Pesach must be celebrated in the spring (be-chodesh ha-aviv, Shemot [Exodus] 13:4), and so the average length of the Jewish year must be adjusted to the solar year.

This is achieved by adding an entire month about every three years: In each cycle of 19 years, the 3rd, 6th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th and 19th years are leap years, the others are common years."

I don't know what site you're quoting (You're supposed to cite your sources, otherwise it's plagarism), but they are talking about the modern Jewish calendar (which wasn't created until centuries after the crucifixion), not the one that was in use in Jesus's time. The original calendar as used by Jesus and the apostles adjusted the year to the seasons by the ripeness of the barley crop. If the barley was ripe enough at the end of the 12th month that it could be harvested in time for the feast of First Fruits, a new year started at the sighting of the next new moon. If not, then an extra month was added.

The TOG​

 

[tobewell]

I don't know what site you're quoting (You're supposed to cite your sources, otherwise it's plagarism), but they are talking about the modern Jewish calendar (which wasn't created until centuries after the crucifixion), not the one that was in use in Jesus's time. The original calendar as used by Jesus and the apostles adjusted the year to the seasons by the ripeness of the barley crop. If the barley was ripe enough at the end of the 12th month that it could be harvested in time for the feast of First Fruits, a new year started at the sighting of the next new moon. If not, then an extra month was added.

The TOG​

The text has a link in blue to the website; see (...calculate online).

 

[tobewell]

I really wish you would stop misrepresenting what I've said. I never said they got the day of the resurrection wrong. I said you (and many others) got the day of the crucifixion wrong.



That's a later explanation about why Christians worship on Sunday. Sunday didn't become the official day of worship for Christians until the beginning of the 4th century. I don't remember whether it was in this thread or the Christmas thread, but you yourself said we shouldn't impose modern customs and doctrines on the Bible. But that's exactly what you've been doing. You're taking a day (in this thread) and a holidy (in the other thread) that weren't observed until centuries later, and reading them into the Bible. The book of Acts tells us that they met in homes every day of the week, not just one.

And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they did not cease teaching and preaching that the Christ is Jesus. (Acts 5:42 ESV)

And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved. (Acts 2:46-47)​

They all kept the Sabbath on the seventh day, just as Scripture commands, until about 80 AD, when the Jewish tax was imposed as a punishment on the Jews for their rebellion against Rome. Then some Gentile Christians started gathering on Sunday, so that they could say "Look... We're not Jews. We worship on the same day as Romans do", and thereby avoid the tax. Most Christians, however, kept the Sabbath and they did so until the beginning of the 4th century, when the Pagan emporor Constantine made Sunday the official day by law.



I know exactly how the timekeeping worked, and I'm not trying to impose anything modern on the Scriptures. According to the Hebrew method of keeping time, there are 3 days and 3 nights from sundown Wednesday until sundown Saturday, but only 1 day and 2 nights from sundown Friday to sunrise Sunday. Besides, the method of time keeping is irrelevant. This isn't talking about what day of the week it was, but about a period of time.



And you need to find a way of fitting 3 days and 3 nights between Friday evening and sunrise Sunday, or your tradition is wrong. Face it. Jesus prophesied that he would be in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights. Scripture is correct. Tradition, in this case, is wrong.



What book was that?

The TOG​

The Holy Spirit did not leave the Early Church wondering for over 300 years waiting for Constantine to be born.

The Church already had at least 250 years of established communal worship on Sunday. 70 AD the Jewish Temple was destroyed so any co-participation there ended. Daily celebration continued but communal gathering occured on Sunday.

Justin Matryr's testimonial letter describes the who, what, when, where and how of communal worship in the year 150.

Scripture in the Early Church did not come to people in a book, the official canon of Scripture wasn't determined for hundreds of years.

 

[tim-from-pa]

......
You're right instead because you need to pack 21st Century time keeping into Scripture in an attempt to believe that you can always read Scripture and it will read like a modern book and fit into your modern way of thinking and day/hour calculation. For some reason you need to find a way for Christ to be buried for three 24 hour days or Scripture isn't correct......

Let me address this, too. True, a Jew could consider any part of a day as a full day. But they could also consider a full day (and night) as 24 hours. So which do we use? Jesus clues us in.

This is why Jesus stated there are 12 hours in a day. This is an astronomical clue and code to us gnomonists that he meant a full day that would normally pass over the heads of most readers. Today this statement makes no sense since the number of hours in a day varies depending on the seasons. That's because we use equinoctial hours. Back then, ALL days had 12 hours being relative and all they did was simply divide the day into 12 equal parts just like dividing a pie. Large pie, large parts, small pie small parts. I could just imagine Christ pointing to a Roman hemispherium sundial when asking this rhetorical question.

So, what was he saying? To paraphrase he said that the day is from sunrise to sunset to put it colloquially. Likewise the night is then sunset to sunrise since night is the opposite, also 12 hours, or to be more specific, 4 watches. When he thus said 3 days and 3 nights, that is too precise to be taken idiomatically, and is specifying a specific period of time. A day and night had a sum total of 24 hours back then as it does now (both temporal hours and equinoctial hours always add to 24 and the same period of time when added together as that's about one rotation of the earth). Thus 3 days and 3 nights is about 72 hours even in our time-keeping today.

Notice that since we are talking 3 full calendar days, that basically means that he arose 3 days after dying, about the same time of the day. So he would not be interred at sundown, and rise at sunrise for instance, because that would entail a fraction of a day.

 

[TOG]

Scripture in the Early Church did not come to people in a book, the official canon of Scripture wasn't determined for hundreds of years.

You said they wrote a book, and that they used that book to build up the church. As you correctly point out, the official canon of the New Testament wasn't determined until centuries later. So what book did the apostles use to build up the church?

The TOG​

 

[tobewell]

You said they wrote a book, and that they used that book to build up the church. As you correctly point out, the official canon of the New Testament wasn't determined until centuries later. So what book did the apostles use to build up the church?

The TOG​

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.ii.lxvii.html

"And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son 186Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost.

And on the day called Sunday,1913 all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things.

Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability,1914 and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given,1915 and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.

And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.

But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead.

For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration."

 

[Deborah13]

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.ii.lxvii.html

"And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son 186Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost.

And on the day called Sunday,1913 all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things.

Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability,1914 and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given,1915 and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.

And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.

But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead.

For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration."

I'm confused. This is a writing from the 1900's. No one is denying that the church has been meeting on Sundays for a very, very long time.

 

[Sinthesis]

http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/m_calint.htm

That sight does not contradict anything I've said.

 

[Sinthesis]

Let me address this, too. True, a Jew could consider any part of a day as a full day. But they could also consider a full day (and night) as 24 hours. So which do we use? Jesus clues us in.

This is why Jesus stated there are 12 hours in a day. This is an astronomical clue and code to us gnomonists that he meant a full day that would normally pass over the heads of most readers. Today this statement makes no sense since the number of hours in a day varies depending on the seasons. That's because we use equinoctial hours. Back then, ALL days had 12 hours being relative and all they did was simply divide the day into 12 equal parts just like dividing a pie. Large pie, large parts, small pie small parts. I could just imagine Christ pointing to a Roman hemispherium sundial when asking this rhetorical question.

So, what was he saying? To paraphrase he said that the day is from sunrise to sunset to put it colloquially. Likewise the night is then sunset to sunrise since night is the opposite, also 12 hours, or to be more specific, 4 watches. When he thus said 3 days and 3 nights, that is too precise to be taken idiomatically, and is specifying a specific period of time. A day and night had a sum total of 24 hours back then as it does now (both temporal hours and equinoctial hours always add to 24 and the same period of time when added together as that's about one rotation of the earth). Thus 3 days and 3 nights is about 72 hours even in our time-keeping today.

Notice that since we are talking 3 full calendar days, that basically means that he arose 3 days after dying, about the same time of the day. So he would not be interred at sundown, and rise at sunrise for instance, because that would entail a fraction of a day.

A minimum of 72hrs and a maximum of 84hrs. There is no reason to insist on exactly 72hrs.