Did Jesus Rise On Sunday ?

[TOG]

I'm confused. This is a writing from the 1900's. No one is denying that the church has been meeting on Sundays for a very, very long time.

The 19xx numbers are not years. I think they are foot notes, but I'm not sure. This is the first apology of Justin, and was written in the middle of the second century.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.ii.lxvii.html

"And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son 186Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost.

And on the day called Sunday,1913 all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things.

Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability,1914 and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given,1915 and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.

And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.

But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead.

For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration."

You said that the apostles had written a book and used it to build up the church. I asked you what book that was, and you didn't answer. I asked again, and you proved a quote from a mid-second century book. That doesn't answer my question. What book did the apostles write and use to build up the church?

As for what Justin writes, it's irrelevant to this discussion. I already stated that the first Christians started worshiping on Sunday around 80 AD (about 75 years before Justin's apology). As I stated, that was not in any relation to the crucifixion or resurrection, but to avoid persecution.

The TOG​

 

[tobewell]

I'm confused. This is a writing from the 1900's. No one is denying that the church has been meeting on Sundays for a very, very long time.

Correct, this letter is from 150 a.d.

You originally wrote that Sunday was only a set day of worship after Constantine decreed it. And you think it was done to avoid persecution.

Did you read what Justin the Martyr wrote as to why Christians worship on Sunday?

He states why.

Did you read the last paragraph on Justin's apology?

He states the day of Christ's crucifixion.

 

[Lewis]

tobewell, it is hopeless to try and explain anything to you, because you only see what you want to see.

 

[tobewell]

No. I'm presenting evidence of what the Apostles taught the Early Church.

This Christian martyr from 150 a.d. wrote the day of Christ's death and His Resurrection.

 

[Lewis]

TOG has proven it 20 times over and backed it up with Scripture, but you still don't want to see it.

 

[TOG]

Correct, this letter is from 150 a.d.

You originally wrote that Sunday was only a set day of worship after Constantine decreed it.

No, I wrote that the first Christians worshiped on Sunday around 80 AD. That's about 250 years prior to Constantine's decree. What he did was make it official. And even though some Christians had begun Sunday worship in the late first century, and in spite of Constantine's decree, gathering on the Sabbath was still the most common practice in the 4th century.

In the 1st centuries, the first day, being made a festival in honor of Christ's resurrection, received attention as a day of religious services and recreation, but seventh-day Sabbath rest was still observed by "almost all churches".According to classical sources, widespread seventh-day Sabbath rest by Gentile Christians was also the prevailing mode in the 3rd and 4th centuries.
Source

And you think it was done to avoid persecution.

It was

Though the majority observance of Christian Sabbath is as Sunday rest, this development was gradual. Theologian Samuele Bacchiocchi documented in his book, From Sabbath to Sunday, that there was a transition from the Saturday Sabbath to Sunday in the early Christian church due to pagan and political factors, and also the decline of standards for the Sabbath day.
Source

Did you read what Justin the Martyr wrote as to why Christians worship on Sunday?

Justin Martyr was telling about the practice of the church in his area (it wasn't the same everywhere) 120 years after the resurrection. Nobody here is denying that Christians did change from Sabbath to Sunday worship, so I don't know why keep going on about that. I myself even said that the first Christians started worshiping on Sunday in around 80 AD. I don't see what the problem is.

And you still haven't told me what book the apostles wrote that they used to build up the church. You said they wrote one. Why won't you tell us what book it was.

The TOG​

 

[tobewell]

This is your comment concerning Sunday worship:

Post #151 page 8.

"That's a later explanation about why Christians worship on Sunday. Sunday didn't become the official day of worship for Christians until the beginning of the 4th century. "

Justin in 150, said that Sunday was the day people from all areas gathered to worship because that was the day of Christ's Resurrection. You infer that Constantine in 325 was responsible for the change, which is inaccurate. The Church was worshiping already on Sunday for over 300 years.

Justin also states that Christ died on Friday, in his letter.

You failed to acknowledge that.

"But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration."

As for the book that the Apostles wrote, Christ established His Church first and as Justin Martyr writes the Church used what they had available of the writings from the Apostles, the Psalms and any other writings which built up the Church.

Eventually, some hundreds of years later, all these manuscripts were collected and bishops from around the Mediterrianian determined which manuscripts were authentic and Apostolic.

 

[TOG]

This is your comment concerning Sunday worship:

"That's a later explanation about why Christians worship on Sunday. Sunday didn't become the official day of worship for Christians until the beginning of the 4th century. "

(Emphasis added)

Did you notice the part I put in bold? I said that Constantine made Sunday the official day. I also said that some Christians began worshiping on Sunday in around 80AD. What exactly is your problem with this?

Justin in 150, said that Sunday was the day people from all areas gathered to worship because that was the day of Christ's Resurrection. You infer that Constantine in 325 was responsible for the change, which is inaccurate. The Church was worshiping already on Sunday for over 300 years.

How do you get over 300 years from 80Ad to 325 AD? Oh... How stupid of me... The same way you get 3 days and 3 nights from Friday to Sunday.
You seriously need to brush up on your math.

Justin also states that Christ died on Friday, in his letter.

You failed to acknowledge that.

Justine wasn't there. He was just repeating the incorrect doctrine that he had been taught.

As for the book that the Apostles wrote, Christ established His Church first and as Justin Martyr writes the Church used what they had available of the writings from the Apostles, the Psalms and any other writings which built up the Church.

The apostles didn't write the Psalms. The only "writings from the apostles" that I know about were letters written to either individuals or congregations. No books. You said they wrote a book.

Eventually, some hundreds of years later, all these manuscripts were collected and bishops from around the Mediterrianian determined which manuscripts were authentic and Apostolic.

This is what I thought you were talking about. Their letters were compiled into a book, which we know as the New Testament, hundreds of years after the death of the last apostle. Because we have that in book form today, you say that "they wrote a book". But they didn't write a book. You are, yet again, taking modern inventions and imposing them on the first century church. Just as the first century church didn't have the New Testament, neither did they have doctrines about Good Friday or other later inventions. They rested on the Sabbath, as God commanded, commemorated Christ's crucifixion on Passover and his resurrection the first day of the following week.

The TOG​

The TOG​

 

[Deborah13]

Correct, this letter is from 150 a.d.

You originally wrote that Sunday was only a set day of worship after Constantine decreed it. And you think it was done to avoid persecution.

Did you read what Justin the Martyr wrote as to why Christians worship on Sunday?

He states why.

Did you read the last paragraph on Justin's apology?

He states the day of Christ's crucifixion.

TOG straighten me out, I was reading a footnote as a date.
I've read this history before.

So you believe the writings that a man wrote more than what Jesus said? Or do you believe Jesus words have been corrupted by some scribe and are inaccurate?

IF He died on Friday, there is absolutely no way to get three nights not even partial nights.
I'm going to believe God's word before I believe Justin Martyr or the scribe that translated his words.

 

[tobewell]

The first century Church had lived and was living out what would later be canonized in the New Testament. Each Church used the manuscripts they had available both from the Old Testament and what was being written or had already been given to them.

"Justin wasn't there. He was just repeating the incorrect doctrine he had been taught."

That's how you reason toward truth?

P.S. My math is accurate. Constantine in 321 made Sunday an official day of worship both for pagans and for Christians in addition to legalizing Christianity as a religion.

The Early Church always celebrated Sunday because the 8th day creation was the day that Christ Resurrected.

 

[tobewell]

TOG straighten me out, I was reading a footnote as a date.
I've read this history before.

So you believe the writings that a man wrote more than what Jesus said? Or do you believe Jesus words have been corrupted by some scribe and are inaccurate?

IF He died on Friday, there is absolutely no way to get three nights not even partial nights.
I'm going to believe God's word before I believe Justin Martyr or the scribe that translated his words.

Scripture in four places records that Christ died on Preparation Day, the next day was the Sabbath, the next day He Resurrected.

 

[TOG]

My math is accurate.

You know, you weren't all that far off. Only one word. If you had admitted your mistake and said "I meant almost 300 years", I wouldn't have made anything of it, since "almost" is a relative term. But since you insist that your math is accurate, then let's be accurate. Let's do the math.

Constantine gave his Sunday decree in 325 AD. As I said, the first Christians started keeping Sunday in 80 AD. 325 - 80 = 245. But you disagree with me (as well as historical sources) and say that Christians rejected what Scripture said starting the day the church was founded. According to tradition (which you seem to be very fond of), that was in 33 AD. 325 - 33 = 292. So, whether you use your version or what really happened, neither one gives over 300 years. You were wrong, but are unable to admit it. Even when simple 1st grade math is enough to prove you wrong, you still insist on twisting things to make them fit your traditions.

The TOG​

 

[TOG]

Scripture in four places records that Christ died on Preparation Day, the next day was the Sabbath

Nobody is denying this. The day he died was the preparation for the Sabbath that was the first day of Unleavened Bread, which in this case was on a Thursday.

the next day He Resurrected.

He rose three days and three nights after he was buried. That's what Jesus himself prophesied, and said would be the only sign given that would show who he was. If that's not what happened, then not only do we have no sign to show that Jesus was who he said he was, but he was also a false prophet, since his prediction didn't come true.

The TOG​

 

[Deborah13]

No. I'm presenting evidence of what the Apostles taught the Early Church.

This Christian martyr from 150 a.d. wrote the day of Christ's death and His Resurrection.

"Eastern and Western Mediterranean Christians had a history of differences and disagreements dating back to the 2nd century. Among the most significant early disagreements is the Quartodeciman controversy. Until the late 2nd century there was a difference in dating the celebration of the Christian Passover/Easter between Western churches and those of Asia Minor. The churches in Asia Minor celebrated it on the 14th of the Jewish month of Nisan, the day before Jewish Passover, regardless of what day of the week it fell on, as the Crucifixion had occurred on the day before Passover according to the Gospel of John. The Latins called them Quartodecimans, literally meaning 14'ers. At the time, the West celebrated Easter on the Sunday following the Jewish 14th of Nisan."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_the_2nd_century

Polycarp was one who celebrate the passover on the 14th of Nisan. Unfortunately Polycarp was martyred. Maybe you would like to read this writing about the disagreement. It's on the same site you quoted from, I have used it in the past as well.
You may understand from this writing by an Early Church Father that the celebration called Easter was originally not just about the resurrection but about the Passover.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.x.xxv.html
Here's another one, explaining how it became the Sunday after Nisan 14 and that same day only every year.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.x.xxiv.html

 

[tobewell]

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/passover_dates.htm

 

[tobewell]

"Eastern and Western Mediterranean Christians had a history of differences and disagreements dating back to the 2nd century. Among the most significant early disagreements is the Quartodeciman controversy. Until the late 2nd century there was a difference in dating the celebration of the Christian Passover/Easter between Western churches and those of Asia Minor. The churches in Asia Minor celebrated it on the 14th of the Jewish month of Nisan, the day before Jewish Passover, regardless of what day of the week it fell on, as the Crucifixion had occurred on the day before Passover according to the Gospel of John. The Latins called them Quartodecimans, literally meaning 14'ers. At the time, the West celebrated Easter on the Sunday following the Jewish 14th of Nisan."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_the_2nd_century

Polycarp was one who celebrate the passover on the 14th of Nisan. Unfortunately Polycarp was martyred. Maybe you would like to read this writing about the disagreement. It's on the same site you quoted from, I have used it in the past as well.
You may understand from this writing by an Early Church Father that the celebration called Easter was originally not just about the resurrection but about the Passover.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.x.xxv.html
Here's another one, explaining how it became the Sunday after Nisan 14 and that same day only every year.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.x.xxiv.html

We are discussing the day of Christ's death.

I know the Early Church had disagreements about when to celebrate Easter. I believe Orthodox and Catholics continue to celebrate on differing dates today.

These are the differing dates in 2015:

"In 2015, Western Christianity will celebrate Easter on Sunday, April 5. In the Eastern Orthodox Christianity Easter Sunday will fall on Sunday April 12."

In 2015, Passover is April 3-11.

Thanks for the links, I'll read through them.

 

[tobewell]

Dating the day that the sky turned to darkness:

http://scienceandapologetics.org/engl/g19.html

 

[tobewell]

John 18:28New International Version (NIV)

"Jesus Before Pilate

28 Then the Jewish leaders took Jesus from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman governor.

By now it was early morning, and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness they did not enter the palace, because they wanted to be able to eat the Passover."


Passover falls on the Saturday Sabbath in 33 a.d.

 

[TOG]

Dating the day that the sky turned to darkness:

http://scienceandapologetics.org/engl/g19.html

That site starts by saying: "Most people, when asked about the dates of Christ’s birth and death, will not hesitate to answer that Jesus of Nazareth was born between two eras and His birth actually is the beginning of the Current (Christian) Era. At the age of thirty He began His ministry which lasted fààor three years. After that He was crucified at the age of thirty-three, that is in 33 A.D." (emphasis mine).

All those things in bold are wrong. Herod, who was alive when Jesus was born, died in the spring of 4 BC. Whether it was in the fall, as I believe, or in December as tradition holds, Jesus could have been born no later than some time in the year 5 BC. That would make him a minum of 37 years old in 33 AD. But, if he had been crucified that year, he would actaully have been older. When the shepherds came, they found the baby in a manger (Luke 2:16), but when the wise men came, they found the child in a house (Matt. 2:11). Some amount of time passed between the two events, which means that Jesus was born no later than 6 or 7 BC. It is a well known fact that our calendar is wrong.

But let's assume for a moment that tradition is correct and that our calendar is right. Let's do some calculations based on that, and see where it leads us.

According to tradition, Jesus birth marked the beginning of our calendar. That means that he was born in 1 BC, just a few days before the beginning of 1 AD (there was no year 0). That would mean that Jesus was 1 year old in December of 1 AD. Since his age in December is the same as the year, it makes things easy to calculate. The site you quoted states "After that He was crucified at the age of thirty-three, that is in 33 A.D." Jesus was crucified at Passover, which is in the spring, but according to tradition, he wouldn't have turned 33 until December that year. That means he was 32 when he was crucified. I could go on, but you can see from this that tradition concerning Jesus birth and death is not only inconsistent with historical records and the scriptural accounts, as I and others have shown, but it is also internally inconsistent with itself.

The TOG​

 

[TOG]

John 18:28New International Version (NIV)

"Jesus Before Pilate

28 Then the Jewish leaders took Jesus from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman governor.

By now it was early morning, and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness they did not enter the palace, because they wanted to be able to eat the Passover."


Passover falls on the Saturday Sabbath in 33 a.d.

If that's true, then Jesus couldn't have been crucified on a Friday. He was crucified ond the 14th of Aviv, and his body was taken down and he was buried before the beginning of the Sabbath that evening. That wouldn't be possible if he were actually crucified on a Sabbath. Still more internal inconsistancy. Why anybody still hangs on to this tradition is something I cannot understand.

The TOG​