D
Dave Slayer
Guest
Did John Calvin order the murder of those he disagreed with? I have heard some say that Calvin ordered executions of those who disagreed with his theology. But is it true?
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Dave Slayer said:
Hello Dave,
In Geneva there was a heresy trial where 'Michael Servetus' was convicted and burnt at the stake. I seem to recall that Calvin said earlier (of Servetus) 'if he ever comes to Geneva he will not leave here alive' or words to that affect. It would be good to get the exact words of Calvin though. When I read the comment I do remember being surprised at the time.
blessings
handy
Member
- Jun 21, 2007
- 10,028
- 99
The sad case of Michael Servetus shows that it wasn't just the RCC that got caught up in fighting spiritual battles by ungodly methods.
Michael Servetus was a Unitarian who denied the Trinity. He had been tried by the RCC and was ordered burned at the stake. Servetus escaped prison and went to Geneva. He was recognized and brought to trial there. John Calvin acted as "prosecuting attorney" before the Geneva Council. The Council ordered Servetus' death by burning. John Calvin actually called for a swift execution by beheading, but the Council went ahead with the burning.
So, does this make Calvin a murderer? Not in the strictest sense no. But, just as David was culpable in the death of Uriah, Calvin was culpable in the death of Servetus. We do need to remember that Calvin, just like the other religious people of the time were indeed people of their time. At that time, executions for holding heretical opinions were the norm. It does not make it right and it was certainly a violation of the Scriptures that Calvin was so zealous in defending.
It should be noted that other Protestant reformers were not innocent of violence against those that they disagreed with. Luther said of the Jews "So we are even at fault in not avenging all this innocent blood of our Lord and of the Christians which they shed for three hundred years after the destruction of Jerusalem, and the blood of the children they have shed since then (which still shines forth from their eyes and their skin). We are at fault in not slaying them. Rather we allow them to live freely in our midst despite an their murdering, cursing, blaspheming, lying, and defaming; we protect and shield their synagogues, houses, life, and property In this way we make them lazy and secure and encourage them to fleece us boldly of our money and goods, as well as to mock and deride us, with a view to finally overcoming us, killing us all for such a great sin, and robbing us of all our property (as they dailypray and hope). Now tell me whether they do not have every reason to be the enemies of us accursed Goyim, to curse us and to strive for our final, complete, and eternal ruin!" (On the Jews and their Lies, chapter 14)
Christianity does have blood on its hands.
Michael Servetus was a Unitarian who denied the Trinity. He had been tried by the RCC and was ordered burned at the stake. Servetus escaped prison and went to Geneva. He was recognized and brought to trial there. John Calvin acted as "prosecuting attorney" before the Geneva Council. The Council ordered Servetus' death by burning. John Calvin actually called for a swift execution by beheading, but the Council went ahead with the burning.
So, does this make Calvin a murderer? Not in the strictest sense no. But, just as David was culpable in the death of Uriah, Calvin was culpable in the death of Servetus. We do need to remember that Calvin, just like the other religious people of the time were indeed people of their time. At that time, executions for holding heretical opinions were the norm. It does not make it right and it was certainly a violation of the Scriptures that Calvin was so zealous in defending.
It should be noted that other Protestant reformers were not innocent of violence against those that they disagreed with. Luther said of the Jews "So we are even at fault in not avenging all this innocent blood of our Lord and of the Christians which they shed for three hundred years after the destruction of Jerusalem, and the blood of the children they have shed since then (which still shines forth from their eyes and their skin). We are at fault in not slaying them. Rather we allow them to live freely in our midst despite an their murdering, cursing, blaspheming, lying, and defaming; we protect and shield their synagogues, houses, life, and property In this way we make them lazy and secure and encourage them to fleece us boldly of our money and goods, as well as to mock and deride us, with a view to finally overcoming us, killing us all for such a great sin, and robbing us of all our property (as they dailypray and hope). Now tell me whether they do not have every reason to be the enemies of us accursed Goyim, to curse us and to strive for our final, complete, and eternal ruin!" (On the Jews and their Lies, chapter 14)
Christianity does have blood on its hands.
handy,
Which of the two groups mentioned are guilty of all the blood that has been shed.....
Rev 18:23-24
24 "And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth." NASU
Rev 11:8
8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. NASU
The meaning of the "accursed Goyim," is apparently hidden for the eyes of the understanding.
Joe
Which of the two groups mentioned are guilty of all the blood that has been shed.....
Rev 18:23-24
24 "And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth." NASU
Rev 11:8
8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. NASU
The meaning of the "accursed Goyim," is apparently hidden for the eyes of the understanding.
Joe
Dave, I have not done first hand research on this subject, but want to say a few things anyway.Dave Slayer said:
JOHN CALVIN
John Calvin never had the power to order the execution of anyone. Calvin was the pastor, and did not have that power. The only thing he could do is to pronounce someone a heretic, and the town council would determine the punishment. Calvin did pronounce Servetus a heretic and handed him over to the council. It is very doubtful that Calvin desired the execution of Servetus. Calvin once traveled into France at the risk of his own life to talk to Servetus. Why would he do this if Servetus were his enemy?
THE "STATE/CHURCH" IN GENEVA
Also, I would caution you about using our cultural thinking to judge Calvin. At the time of Calvin there were no secular nation states. The English and French were developing nation states, but the swiss and Germans had a few years to go. With no concept of a secular nation, they thought in terms of the State Church. The only people of that time not to have a State Church were the AnaBaptists. So then, in their culture, heresy was a crime along side rape, or theft, or robbery. Lutherans and Roman Catholics would have done the same thing with Servetus as Geneva did. Since European society functioned in a way that was different then later European secular society, I dont think Calvin was a blood thirsty megalomaniac. Rather he was a product of a bloody time and the State/Church thinking.
OTHER REFORMED STATE CHURCHES
Unfortunately, the concept of the State/Church remained with the Reformed into the 1600s. The English had their "republic" from Cromwell. The Dutch had a reformed state/Church, the Scottish had the Presbyterianism of John Knox. While I cannot agree with the concept of a State/Church, and am very much a secularist myself. I think the record of Reformed State/Churches fairs well when compared to their Lutheran or Catholic counterparts, but that is not saying much. All three State/Churches lead to abuse. The Reformed or Calvinistic Churches of the 1500-1600s definately had some abuse to answer for.
ARE WE REALLY THAT MUCH BETTER?
On the other hand, secular Governments have had a pretty poor record of human rights abuse also. Consider the Gulags of Germany, the Siberian camps of the USSR, etc. I am grateful for my democracy, but wonder how long religious liberty will hold out in our day?
F
follower of Christ
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- Thread starter
- #6
ANY so called 'christian' who murders or ORDERS the murder of someone over a matter of doctrine isnt a christian at all.
Anyone with eyes and a brain can see in the NT that the only recourse the church has been given is to disfellowship with those who reject sound doctrine or are living in open sin. Anything beyond that is carnal mans own vanity and self serving behavior.
If Calvin ordered, or AGREED TO, the death of anyone over a matter of doctrine then he ought to stand for his own crime of murder, of which he is no less innocent than the ones setting the flame.
Anyone with eyes and a brain can see in the NT that the only recourse the church has been given is to disfellowship with those who reject sound doctrine or are living in open sin. Anything beyond that is carnal mans own vanity and self serving behavior.
If Calvin ordered, or AGREED TO, the death of anyone over a matter of doctrine then he ought to stand for his own crime of murder, of which he is no less innocent than the ones setting the flame.
F
follower of Christ
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- Thread starter
- #7
Mondar, friend, our goverments ARENT christian...they are godless and they will behave in a godless manner.mondar said:
WE, as followers of Christ are not permitted to even WANT someone to die for doctrinal matters.
Even defending our own children it should not be the GOAL to take a life.
WE are better than that even if our leaders, who arent following the true Christ, arent.
So then God is not a Christian?follower of Christ said:
Deu 13:5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death, because he hath spoken rebellion against Jehovah your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of bondage, to draw thee aside out of the way which Jehovah thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee.
Anyone with "eyes and a brain" would not use so many Ad-hominidsfollower of Christ said:
Of course, who disagrees with such a simplistic statement?follower of Christ said:
The Lord's providence over his people and work through secular governments began with Nebuchadnezzar. The king of Babylon offered terms of peace to Zedekiah, who was made a vassal king over Judah under the Babylonian umbrella. The peace was in connection with Nebuchadnezzar requiring Zedekiah to vow before the Lord that he would be loyal to the terms of the relationship. Zedekiah eventually broke the vow. Nebuchadnezzar responded with wrath and destruction.
Consider all that Nebuchadnezzar did and said in regard to the Lord, the God of the Jews. Then consider the Mede and Persian rulers and their thoughts and actions toward the people of Judah who were directly under their care. The people of Judah were free to work and carry on a regular human existence at that time. They were not enslaved as under the later part of the Egyptian sojurn. Egypt eventually became slavery. Babylon, Medo-Persia was a geographically restricted freedom that is called a captivity. Eventually the Persian kings gave permission and financial and military support for the return of whoever was willing to go to Judah and the rebuilding of the temple and the city of Jerusalem.
This did not cure the problem of self-righteousness that ruled in the hearts and minds of the Jews of Judah and especially Jerusalem. The books of Ezra, Nehemiah and Zechariah and Haggai are the records of this return and some of its events and its disastrous results which brought the people downward until they stumbled over their long anticipated Messiah and Savior.
So it is today in the anticipation of the return/appearing of Jesus; called a "rapture" by some and a "second coming" by others. The image of Jesus' service in the flesh will be reproduced in his Body, the church. He came to his own and his own received him not and even the little inner circle were disappointed and scattered. Then Jesus gathered them back to himself and sent them out to serve as he served, with no place to lay his head, no place that he was the human owner by legal law. He did not begin that way. We cannot begin that way. That is how it ended with him, that is how it will end with his Body, the church on earth to prepare them for resurrection.
God has ordained the secular governments to carry on in place of Moses' laws in regard to daily civil and social order. The laws that God had given to the "nations" was now introduced to rule over the Jewish people in non-worship areas of life. Worship and spiritual service to the body of Christ are according to the commandments that God gave to us through Jesus when he was here with us in the flesh. God said more than once, "This is my Son in whom I am well pleased, listen to him." When Jesus' law of serving your neighbor as equal to your own interest is finally abandoned in practice, then the results will be as disastrous for our day as for his, when he was with us in the flesh. Praise God, the Lord Jesus is still with us in the Spirit, and we are given to worship God in the spirit and serve our brethren in the flesh.
The RCC operated under the terms of a "Church over State" mind set. The Reformation groups operated under the terms of a "State over Church" mind set, much as King David operated. King David was not versed in Mosaic social and civil laws or the laws of the ceremonial processes, though David was deeply involved in the thought of worshiping the Lord, especially through music. When he had the ark put on a ox cart in the first attempt to bring it to Jerusalem, he was not aware of the Mosaic law that it should be carried by 4 priests with the wooden staves. In King David, the Lord was making an advance in the revelation of his will and truth, just like an advance had been made at the end of the 40 years in the wilderness, as Moses was given new parts of the covenant to give to the people as they were about to enter the promised land. The advance revelations did not lead them to despise and scorn the past revelations.
Joe
Consider all that Nebuchadnezzar did and said in regard to the Lord, the God of the Jews. Then consider the Mede and Persian rulers and their thoughts and actions toward the people of Judah who were directly under their care. The people of Judah were free to work and carry on a regular human existence at that time. They were not enslaved as under the later part of the Egyptian sojurn. Egypt eventually became slavery. Babylon, Medo-Persia was a geographically restricted freedom that is called a captivity. Eventually the Persian kings gave permission and financial and military support for the return of whoever was willing to go to Judah and the rebuilding of the temple and the city of Jerusalem.
This did not cure the problem of self-righteousness that ruled in the hearts and minds of the Jews of Judah and especially Jerusalem. The books of Ezra, Nehemiah and Zechariah and Haggai are the records of this return and some of its events and its disastrous results which brought the people downward until they stumbled over their long anticipated Messiah and Savior.
So it is today in the anticipation of the return/appearing of Jesus; called a "rapture" by some and a "second coming" by others. The image of Jesus' service in the flesh will be reproduced in his Body, the church. He came to his own and his own received him not and even the little inner circle were disappointed and scattered. Then Jesus gathered them back to himself and sent them out to serve as he served, with no place to lay his head, no place that he was the human owner by legal law. He did not begin that way. We cannot begin that way. That is how it ended with him, that is how it will end with his Body, the church on earth to prepare them for resurrection.
God has ordained the secular governments to carry on in place of Moses' laws in regard to daily civil and social order. The laws that God had given to the "nations" was now introduced to rule over the Jewish people in non-worship areas of life. Worship and spiritual service to the body of Christ are according to the commandments that God gave to us through Jesus when he was here with us in the flesh. God said more than once, "This is my Son in whom I am well pleased, listen to him." When Jesus' law of serving your neighbor as equal to your own interest is finally abandoned in practice, then the results will be as disastrous for our day as for his, when he was with us in the flesh. Praise God, the Lord Jesus is still with us in the Spirit, and we are given to worship God in the spirit and serve our brethren in the flesh.
The RCC operated under the terms of a "Church over State" mind set. The Reformation groups operated under the terms of a "State over Church" mind set, much as King David operated. King David was not versed in Mosaic social and civil laws or the laws of the ceremonial processes, though David was deeply involved in the thought of worshiping the Lord, especially through music. When he had the ark put on a ox cart in the first attempt to bring it to Jerusalem, he was not aware of the Mosaic law that it should be carried by 4 priests with the wooden staves. In King David, the Lord was making an advance in the revelation of his will and truth, just like an advance had been made at the end of the 40 years in the wilderness, as Moses was given new parts of the covenant to give to the people as they were about to enter the promised land. The advance revelations did not lead them to despise and scorn the past revelations.
Joe
Joe, thanks for the reply. I hope we all agree that the Church/State union led to abuse. If you will excuse me for being off subject here, I do think David was very familiar with all aspects of the Mosaic Law. He often wrote about his love for the Law in the Psalms.
Deu 17:18 And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book, out of that which is before the priests the Levites:
Deu 17:19 and it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life; that he may learn to fear Jehovah his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them;
I expect that David fulfilled this law and took up the quill of the scribe and made his own copy of the law and kept it near him during his reign. Most likely when this practiced stopped, Kings got far from the Lord.
Joe67 said:
Deu 17:18 And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book, out of that which is before the priests the Levites:
Deu 17:19 and it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life; that he may learn to fear Jehovah his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them;
I expect that David fulfilled this law and took up the quill of the scribe and made his own copy of the law and kept it near him during his reign. Most likely when this practiced stopped, Kings got far from the Lord.
Mondar,
Truly, when the kings departed from the fear of the Lord and his law, then transgression came in and this led to oppression and finally the downfall and destruction by all of God's appointed adversaries; drought, famine, pestilence, plague and sword.
The Word of the Lord is the help and hope of a people, through the blood of Jesus.
Your servant in our Lord Jesus,
Joe
Truly, when the kings departed from the fear of the Lord and his law, then transgression came in and this led to oppression and finally the downfall and destruction by all of God's appointed adversaries; drought, famine, pestilence, plague and sword.
The Word of the Lord is the help and hope of a people, through the blood of Jesus.
Your servant in our Lord Jesus,
Joe
handy
Member
- Jun 21, 2007
- 10,028
- 99
I think another thing that we all can agree with is that no matter what human institution we are speaking of, and no matter how God ordained those institutions might be, whether monarchies or the church or whatever, sinful humans are NOT going to get it right.
God revealed Himself to the Hebrews, He gave Him His own law, and they blew it.
The judges who led Israel blew it.
The kings who led Israel blew it.
The Pharisees and the Sadducees who led Israel blew it.
Then when the most enlightened of all God's people, people with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, got their hands on worldly power, well, we blew it too.
There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understand, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one. Romans 3:10-12.
Which all goes to show us, how much we need a Savior.
God revealed Himself to the Hebrews, He gave Him His own law, and they blew it.
The judges who led Israel blew it.
The kings who led Israel blew it.
The Pharisees and the Sadducees who led Israel blew it.
Then when the most enlightened of all God's people, people with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, got their hands on worldly power, well, we blew it too.
There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understand, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one. Romans 3:10-12.
Which all goes to show us, how much we need a Savior.
God never calls systems. He calls people.
David was king; He was God’s anointed King; not like Saul who was also anointed by God; but chosen by the people; like many ministries in the church (little c) realm today. David was one of those special people God called, anointed and was anointed as child.
Today’s ministry is chosen by men. I have found men of God that I know anointed by the deepness of their understanding not because they have been voted in or out by some church committee.
David walked for many years and knew He had an anointing; but he kept it to himself and understood that Saul was God’s anointed; that is until the appointed time. I think we are better off to wait for God to anoint God’s chosen vessel then to anoint our own.
David was king; He was God’s anointed King; not like Saul who was also anointed by God; but chosen by the people; like many ministries in the church (little c) realm today. David was one of those special people God called, anointed and was anointed as child.
Today’s ministry is chosen by men. I have found men of God that I know anointed by the deepness of their understanding not because they have been voted in or out by some church committee.
David walked for many years and knew He had an anointing; but he kept it to himself and understood that Saul was God’s anointed; that is until the appointed time. I think we are better off to wait for God to anoint God’s chosen vessel then to anoint our own.
