Did the gift of tongues cease?

[Dave Slayer]

Did the gift of tongues cease?

I Corinthians 13:8 -
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

 

[FightingAtheism]

8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
(1Co.13:8-10)

What would you consider to be the "perfect"? The "perfect" is life for us Christians with Jesus Christ. If you say that the "perfect" is considered to be the Bible then this is just illogical. Whether [there be] knowledge - so you're saying that knowledge does not exist today?

6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
(Mt.18:6)

 

[Dave Slayer]

You are correct, tongues have not ceased. I still have mine.

;)

 

[follower of Christ]

Did the gift of tongues cease?

I Corinthians 13:8 -
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

The rest of this passage shows that this is when we see 'face to face' which has not happened yet.

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. (1Co 13:8-12)

WHEN tongues cease, so shall prophecies fail...its a package deal.
This all happens when the perfect has come, when we know as we are known, when we see 'face to face'...

Paul also says that we arent to forbid speaking in tongues,

Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order. (1Co 14:39-40)

so I dont see evidence that they have ceased, but they clearly were and ARE for a sign for those who need to SEE evidence of some sort.

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1Co 14:20-22)

They were a sign to the Jews, to Peter and to others, but thats all tongues really are...a sign gift for those who NEED to SEE to BELIEVE.

Paul also says this just prior to that last quote;

Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
(1Co 14:20)

So my guess is that Paul would be telling a LOT of tongues pushers today to stop being children/immature but to be mature in their understanding as to what tongues was/is for.

 

[Dave Slayer]

What would be the point God telling us things would cease when Jesus comes back to the earth? Isn't that a "duh" statement? Of course these things will be done away with when Jesus comes. It's like saying "your heart will keep beating until you die". Well, duh! lol

Show me where Jesus is called "that"? Jesus is a "Him" or a "He", not an "it" or a "that". If Paul was referring to Jesus being "that which is perfect", why didn't Paul just say "He which is perfect"?

I have been a Christian for 13 years and never once spoke in tongues or had the desire to. Some people have tried to force it on me, but I wasn't about to let them brainwash me. I pray in English, and I am doing just fine with that.

 

[FightingAtheism]

Show me where Jesus is called "that"? Jesus is a "Him" or a "He", not an "it" or a "that". If Paul was referring to Jesus being "that which is perfect", why didn't Paul just say "He which is perfect"?

Why won't you rather look at the context, not if the first letter is a capital. The perfect can be considered heaven, eternal life with Jesus Christ, you call it.

 

[Paidion]

I Corinthians 13 is known in most Christian circles as "The Love Chapter". There is no reason to think that Paul suddenly changes the subject. Paul speaks of LOVE in the first 7 verses. Then he says:

8 Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

Still speaking of LOVE, Paul says that it never ends, while prophecies, tongues, and the gift of knowledge will pass away. Let's see WHEN these will pass away!

9 For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect;

The gift of knowledge is imperfect (incomplete) since it allows us to know a person only partially
The gift of prophecy will sometimes reveal things about a person, but the revealed matters are incomplete. Neither the gift of prophecy nor the gift of knowledge ever reveals everything about a person.[/b]

10 ... but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.

What is the perfect thing that is going to come? None other than perfect LOVE, the theme of the whole chapter. When that comes, the imperfect gifts such as tongues, prophecy, and the gift of knowledge will pass away. For they will no longer be needed.

11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways.

Paul thinks of knowledge and prophecy with their partial revelation of other people as being immature, just as he was immature as a child with childish ways. But when he became a man, he gave up childish ways, and then attained to mature modes of behaviour. So will it be when we attain to perfect LOVE.

12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face.

At the present time (without perfect LOVE), we see other people only dimly as in a mirror (the mirrors of those times did not produce a good image as today's mirrors). We see others only partially. The gifts of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge may help us to know them more deeply, but never completely.

Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.

At the present time without perfect LOVE, I know other people only partially, but when perfect LOVE comes, I shall understand other people fully, even as I have been understood fully by God.

13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Yes, Paul is talking about LOVE from the beginning of the chapter to the end.

 

[Cornelius]

No, it did not pass away.

 

[francisdesales]

I Corinthians 13 is known in most Christian circles as "The Love Chapter". There is no reason to think that Paul suddenly changes the subject. Paul speaks of LOVE in the first 7 verses. Then he says:

8 Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

Still speaking of LOVE, Paul says that it never ends, while prophecies, tongues, and the gift of knowledge will pass away. Let's see WHEN these will pass away!

9 For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect;

The gift of knowledge is imperfect (incomplete) since it allows us to know a person only partially
The gift of prophecy will sometimes reveal things about a person, but the revealed matters are incomplete. Neither the gift of prophecy nor the gift of knowledge ever reveals everything about a person.[/b]

10 ... but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.

What is the perfect thing that is going to come? None other than perfect LOVE, the theme of the whole chapter. When that comes, the imperfect gifts such as tongues, prophecy, and the gift of knowledge will pass away. For they will no longer be needed.

11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways.

Paul thinks of knowledge and prophecy with their partial revelation of other people as being immature, just as he was immature as a child with childish ways. But when he became a man, he gave up childish ways, and then attained to mature modes of behaviour. So will it be when we attain to perfect LOVE.

12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face.

At the present time (without perfect LOVE), we see other people only dimly as in a mirror (the mirrors of those times did not produce a good image as today's mirrors). We see others only partially. The gifts of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge may help us to know them more deeply, but never completely.

Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.

At the present time without perfect LOVE, I know other people only partially, but when perfect LOVE comes, I shall understand other people fully, even as I have been understood fully by God.

13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Yes, Paul is talking about LOVE from the beginning of the chapter to the end.

As usual, a fine explanation of Scriptures...

Regards

 

[follower of Christ]

I have been a Christian for 13 years and never once spoke in tongues or had the desire to. Some people have tried to force it on me, but I wasn't about to let them brainwash me. I pray in English, and I am doing just fine with that.

When I was first born again in 1985 the first group to hit me was some apostolic/holiness charismatics who were the type to say that you arent actually born again unless you speak in tongues.
Ive tried over the years to not let that bad experience cause me to go to the opposite extreme and forbid tongues, as Paul tells us not to, but frankly Ive seen more folks who supposedly have spoken in tongues over the years fall away from God in such a dramatic way that Im beginning to believe that MOST of them were actually forced/coerced into supposedly speaking in tongues when they did, and so possibly they never actually had what they thought they did, thus the foundation the believe they have wasnt truly there. They put their faith in a sign gift rather than the gift Giver and so for many who do fall away and stumble horribly of these sects, its just a matter of time before their faith is tested....and faith an a sign gift is no faith at all...its doomed to failure from the start...

I never did speak in tongues like they insisted because I figured no one at Pentecost was coerced, it just came. If it doesnt just come from God without someone coercing or coaching me, Ill pass...

 

[follower of Christ]

Show me where Jesus is called "that"? Jesus is a "Him" or a "He", not an "it" or a "that". If Paul was referring to Jesus being "that which is perfect", why didn't Paul just say "He which is perfect"?

Why won't you rather look at the context, not if the first letter is a capital. The perfect can be considered heaven, eternal life with Jesus Christ, you call it.

one thing for certain, Paul VERY CLEARLY tells us who and what tongues is for.

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1Co 14:20-22)

So you can argue context till the cows come home but it is VERY clear that tongues ARENT for those who BELIEVE but are for those who DONT believe but NEED a SIGN.
The mature believer doesnt need signs....blessed those who HAVENT seen and yet believe...
Prophesying is the gift for those who BELIEVE...for the mature in Christ who dont need to see signs and wonders to believe in the risen Lord and the Spirit inside us.

 

[Imagican]

I Corinthians 13 is known in most Christian circles as "The Love Chapter". There is no reason to think that Paul suddenly changes the subject. Paul speaks of LOVE in the first 7 verses. Then he says:

8 Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

Still speaking of LOVE, Paul says that it never ends, while prophecies, tongues, and the gift of knowledge will pass away. Let's see WHEN these will pass away!

9 For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect;

The gift of knowledge is imperfect (incomplete) since it allows us to know a person only partially
The gift of prophecy will sometimes reveal things about a person, but the revealed matters are incomplete. Neither the gift of prophecy nor the gift of knowledge ever reveals everything about a person.[/b]

10 ... but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.

What is the perfect thing that is going to come? None other than perfect LOVE, the theme of the whole chapter. When that comes, the imperfect gifts such as tongues, prophecy, and the gift of knowledge will pass away. For they will no longer be needed.

11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways.

Paul thinks of knowledge and prophecy with their partial revelation of other people as being immature, just as he was immature as a child with childish ways. But when he became a man, he gave up childish ways, and then attained to mature modes of behaviour. So will it be when we attain to perfect LOVE.

12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face.

At the present time (without perfect LOVE), we see other people only dimly as in a mirror (the mirrors of those times did not produce a good image as today's mirrors). We see others only partially. The gifts of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge may help us to know them more deeply, but never completely.

Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.

At the present time without perfect LOVE, I know other people only partially, but when perfect LOVE comes, I shall understand other people fully, even as I have been understood fully by God.

13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Yes, Paul is talking about LOVE from the beginning of the chapter to the end.

WOW, there ARE others that understand!!!! This is EXACTLY what is refered to in this passage. When we LEARN 'true love' then that whichis perfect IS come. What we know now in part, all that has led up to this understanding, WILL be 'done away'.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[duval]

the "perfect" as I understand it is the completion of the NT

 

[Cornelius]

the "perfect" as I understand it is the completion of the NT

Here is the scripture that tells as the moment where Christ is manifested in us and we shall be like Him. THAT is when the perfect (Christ) manifests and that which is not perfect passes away:

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.

 

[Cornelius]

So we see that its not tongues and knowledge etc that passes away, but its imperfection that passes away.

 

[awaken]

(1 Corinthians 13:8-10)
This is the only passage in the entire New Testament which tells us when any gifts of the Spirit will pass away.

The words "completion" or "perfection" can refer to any number of things. The fact that the Greek word for "perfection" can be translated as "completion" does not prove that Paul was referring to the completed New Testament.

Every time Paul used the Greek word teleios ("perfection") he was referring to the spiritual maturity of believers, which will not be fully complete or perfect until we are resurrected and transformed at the return of Christ.

If Paul had mentioned the completed New Testament somewhere in the same context as the word "perfection," then this would strengthen the argument that the word "perfection" refers to the completed New Testament.

Paul did not mention the New Testament at all in the context of 1 Corinthians 13:10. Paul never said anything about the completed New Testament in the entire book of 1 Corinthians. In fact, Paul never mentioned a "New Testament" or a new set of Scriptures in any of his letters!

Paul's first illustration is in 1 Corinthians 13:11, which immediately follows his use of the word "perfection":
"but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me." (1 Corinthians 13:10-11)

Paul's illustration speaks of maturity, but notice that he was not talking about the maturity of the New Testament. He was talking about our maturity as believers, which will finally be "perfected" or "completed" when we are transformed at the return of Christ (see 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, Philippians 3:20-21, and 1 John 3:2).

Since Paul used a description of spiritual maturity to elaborate on his statement that "when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears," it provides further confirmation that this "perfection" does not refer to the completion of the New Testament.

 

[francisdesales]

the "perfect" as I understand it is the completion of the NT

:biglol

 

[francisdesales]

If Paul had mentioned the completed New Testament somewhere in the same context as the word "perfection," then this would strengthen the argument that the word "perfection" refers to the completed New Testament.

Paul did not mention the New Testament at all in the context of 1 Corinthians 13:10. Paul never said anything about the completed New Testament in the entire book of 1 Corinthians. In fact, Paul never mentioned a "New Testament" or a new set of Scriptures in any of his letters!

Exactly. Paul mentions not a single word of any such establishment of a "New Testament". The only time he mentions Scriptures is the Old Testament. Furthermore, he tells the Thessalonians, Galatians and Corinthians to hold fast to what they HAD been taught, to include oral teachings. This "holding fast" has never been abrogated by subsequent Scriptures, which defeats the entire sola scriptura concept.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

(1 Corinthians 13:8-10)
This is the only passage in the entire New Testament which tells us when any gifts of the Spirit will pass away.

The words "completion" or "perfection" can refer to any number of things. The fact that the Greek word for "perfection" can be translated as "completion" does not prove that Paul was referring to the completed New Testament.

Every time Paul used the Greek word teleios ("perfection") he was referring to the spiritual maturity of believers, which will not be fully complete or perfect until we are resurrected and transformed at the return of Christ.

You are spot on. James does the same thing. "Perfection" is even more telling in his writings.

Regards

 

[lovely]

I also agree that this is about love. Tongues and prophecy will not be needed at this point because maturity will be acheived...the fullness of Christ displayed in a body unified in Love.

In the next chapter Paul tells us that we are not to forbid tongues, and so I believe we should be careful to say they have ceased. I always thought that William Carey was blessed with the gift of tongues and applied them correctly...it didn't bring confusion, but it opened India up to the Gospel. My thoughts.

The Lord bless you.