Speaking in tongues and the Holy Spirit

[eddif]

Sometimes there can be a someone present that their language matches the language that the tongues message from the Holy Spirit is in . Like this Acts

I can agree with this in part . Our timetable is not God's timetable .

I wonder if this will help or just start a path we do not need.?

The hearing in a persons language IMHO is not a spiritual gift. A spiritual gift is tongues or the meaning of one language to another.

The person hearing in their own language realizes the speaker does not know their language, and gives God the glory.

To the person who hears it is a miracle from God.
When the secrets of a persons heart are revealed they Realize God is in them of a truth.

The interpretation for the crowd is to keep down confusion. Allow a comparison in some cases.

The Daniel writing on the wall is really hard to follow.
but
By the time it is completed:
The king gets his message
Daniel gets, translates, and delivers the message to the king.

The other wise men see a miracle of Daniel getting so much information.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[hawkman]

The person hearing in their own language realizes the speaker does not know their language, and gives God the glory.

To the person who hears it is a miracle from God.
When the secrets of a persons heart are revealed they Realize God is in them of a truth.

Amen .

 

[Runningman]

I can't agree with your findings.
Paul wants them all to speak in tongues, but wants them to prophesy even more.
I see no lack of the gift of tongues with anyone.

Why would he want them all to speak in tongues if they can already do it? Why would they all need to desire the gift of tongues at all? I don't think it follows good sense to tell someone you want them to do something they are not forbidden to do in the first place. I believe Paul said he wants them to speak in tongues because they can't; that's why he said to desire the spiritual gifts.

Tongues was the first sign of anyone receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.
It still is.

That's what you keep saying. I am willing to accept you have a doctrine, but it isn't Scripture. This is making a deduction or inference, but it's not exactly sola scriptura.

If a new convert couldn't speak with tongues, he had better have some other gift with which to glorify God, or doubt will not be excised concerning his heart.

Not all of the gifts of the Spirit are showy like tongues. There is also wisdom, knowledge, and faith.

 

[Hopeful 2]

To put clarification to this statement.

1 Corinthians Chapter 12:7, "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."
According to Paul anyone (given to every man to profit) who is truly born again will profit from the gifts and in verse 11 he says every believer will have at least 1 of the 9 gifts of the spirit. (dividing to every man)

• Wisdom: The ability to understand and apply spiritual truths.
• Knowledge: The ability to recall and communicate spiritual information.
• Faith: This is a deeper level of faith that involves actively seeking and receiving the supernatural abilities bestowed by the Holy Spirit. It often requires a more intentional pursuit and a greater level of spiritual maturity.
• Healing: The ability to restore physical or spiritual health.
• Miracles: The ability to perform supernatural acts.
• Prophecy: The ability to receive and communicate messages from God.
• Discernment of Spirits: The ability to distinguish between good and evil spirits. (This is an awesome one to have)
• Tongues: The ability to speak in unknown languages.
• Interpretation of Tongues: The ability to understand and explain the meaning of tongues.

If a man had none of those gifts, would you consider that man a Christian ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Why would he want them all to speak in tongues if they can already do it?

To put to rest the idea of forbidding tongues.

Why would they all need to desire the gift of tongues at all?

Tongues was the first gift of the Spirit given to new converts.

I don't think it follows good sense to tell someone you want them to do something they are not forbidden to do in the first place. I believe Paul said he wants them to speak in tongues because they can't; that's why he said to desire the spiritual gifts.

I think he would rather they prophesied than spoke in tongues, if there is no interpreter present.

That's what you keep saying. I am willing to accept you have a doctrine, but it isn't Scripture. This is making a deduction or inference, but it's not exactly sola scriptura.

It is the influence of the Holy Spirit.
Show any scripture where wisdom, or knowledge, was the first sign given to prove a new convert.
Tongues were the first sign given on the day of Pentecost, and at Cornelius' house, and to the twelve at Ephesus.

Not all of the gifts of the Spirit are showy like tongues. There is also wisdom, knowledge, and faith.

Showy ?
If God's gifts seem showy to you, I just hope your version of showy is in a God glorifying manner.

 

[My Rock]

If a man had none of those gifts, would you consider that man a Christian ?

If they do not exhibit at least one of the 9 Gifts of the Spirit, then I would say NO. Because if we don't have the Spirit we are none of His. Romans 8:9, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

The verse says that true Christians are not merely individuals who exist separate from God but are spiritually united with Him through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The "Spirit of Christ" is understood as the Holy Spirit, the divine essence of God Himself. Therefore, to have the Spirit of Christ is to have God Himself dwelling within. Asserting that those who are truly united with God will manifest the characteristics of His Spirit in their lives, such as love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control (Galatians 5:22-23).

Some would use the fruits of the Spirit as a sign of a Christian, (know them by their fruits), which is absolutely correct. But if these fruits are falsely represented in congregation and around others and different tone at home or in private, that is not a true Christian. False fruits is not True fruits.

I personally believe that is takes the indwelling of the Holy Ghost to live a Holy and overcoming life and truly in every aspect of life exhibit these fruits daily.

 

[Hopeful 2]

If they do not exhibit at least one of the 9 Gifts of the Spirit, then I would say NO. Because if we don't have the Spirit we are none of His. Romans 8:9, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

The verse says that true Christians are not merely individuals who exist separate from God but are spiritually united with Him through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The "Spirit of Christ" is understood as the Holy Spirit, the divine essence of God Himself. Therefore, to have the Spirit of Christ is to have God Himself dwelling within. Asserting that those who are truly united with God will manifest the characteristics of His Spirit in their lives, such as love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control (Galatians 5:22-23).

Some would use the fruits of the Spirit as a sign of a Christian, (know them by their fruits), which is absolutely correct. But if these fruits are falsely represented in congregation and around others and different tone at home or in private, that is not a true Christian. False fruits is not True fruits.

I have found that God will reveal the posers in short order.
The fakers just can't hang with the real thing.

I personally believe that is takes the indwelling of the Holy Ghost to live a Holy and overcoming life and truly in every aspect of life exhibit these fruits daily.

I totally agree.

 

[Runningman]

To put to rest the idea of forbidding tongues.

Who was forbidding tongues?

Tongues was the first gift of the Spirit given to new converts.

The disciples already had gifts of the Spirit in the gospels. They were doing the same things Jesus did.

I think he would rather they prophesied than spoke in tongues, if there is no interpreter present.

Tongues and interpretation of tongues are considered a lower gift than prophecy. Prophecy is a seperate gift from interpreting.

1 Cor. 12
10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

It is the influence of the Holy Spirit.
Show any scripture where wisdom, or knowledge, was the first sign given to prove a new convert.

Who ever said having a spiritual gift was a sign on being a new convert though?

Tongues were the first sign given on the day of Pentecost, and at Cornelius' house, and to the twelve at Ephesus.

Yes it was given to those whom Jesus said it would be given to. There is no such statement that everyone gets tongues. Why isn't everyone getting tongues then?

 

[My Rock]

The disciples already had gifts of the Spirit in the gospels. They were doing the same things Jesus did.

I will explain more. Here is an interesting fact, If they already possessed the Holy Ghost there was no need to receive it at Pentecost, which they certainly did.

 

[My Rock]

The disciples already had gifts of the Spirit in the gospels. They were doing the same things Jesus did.

The difference between Jesus breathing on the disciples and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost is profound and reveals the layered nature of the Holy Spirit's work in the life of the Church. When Jesus breathed on His disciples in John 20:22 and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit," this moment represented a preliminary impartation of the Spirit's presence. This act signified the beginning of a new spiritual era and preparing the disciples for what was to come. This act was not the full experience of the Holy Spirit's power but rather a personal and intimate impartation from Jesus Himself, reflecting His unique role as the one God incarnate. It was an initial, preparatory gesture that marked the disciples as the recipients of a profound transformation but did not encompass the complete fulfillment of the Spirit’s promise.

In contrast, the event of Pentecost, described in Acts 2:1-4, represents the full realization and outpouring of the Holy Spirit that Jesus had promised. This significant event marked the beginning of the Church and was characterized by dramatic and public manifestations such as speaking in tongues and the sound of a mighty wind. Pentecost was not merely an individual experience but a collective, transformative event that empowered the entire Church. This outpouring fulfilled the promise made by Jesus and inaugurated a new era in which the Holy Spirit would fully dwell within believers, empowering them for ministry and witness.

The distinction between these two events lies in their nature and purpose. Jesus’ breathing on the disciples was a personal act of preparation, signaling a shift in the spiritual dynamic and establishing the groundwork for the forthcoming outpouring. It was a moment of intimate connection and a precursor to the more expansive and communal experience that would follow. Pentecost, however, represented the complete and public manifestation of the Holy Spirit's power. It was a dramatic and visible confirmation of the divine promise, equipping the disciples and the early Church with the spiritual gifts necessary for their mission.

This distinction highlights the transition from a preparatory phase to the full realization of the Spirit’s work. While Jesus’ breath signified the beginning of the Spirit’s involvement, Pentecost marked the empowerment and commissioning of the Church in its entirety. This outpouring was not just a personal experience but a communal and empowering event, demonstrating the universal reach and impact of the Holy Spirit in the new era of the Church. Thus, these events are seen as complementary stages in the unfolding of the Holy Spirit’s role in God’s redemptive plan, with Pentecost being the culmination and full realization of the promise initiated by Jesus’ breath.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Who was forbidding tongues ?

I don't know, but it was worth mentioning by Paul in 1 Cor 14:39..."Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

The disciples already had gifts of the Spirit in the gospels. They were doing the same things Jesus did.

The disciples had the gift, but new recruits don't.

Tongues and interpretation of tongues are considered a lower gift than prophecy. Prophecy is a seperate gift from interpreting.

If that gift of tongues is the one done in public, you are right.
Tongues done in private prayer has a different answer.

Who ever said having a spiritual gift was a sign on being a new convert though?

I do.
It is a gift given to those who have received the Holy Ghost.
That is evidenced by Cornelius' group and the twelve at Ephesus.

Yes it was given to those whom Jesus said it would be given to.

I don't recall Jesus ever speaking about gifts associated with the giving of the Holy Ghost.

There is no such statement that everyone gets tongues. Why isn't everyone getting tongues then?

I would answer... failure to turn from sin.
The unrepentant get nothing from God.

 

[Runningman]

I don't know, but it was worth mentioning by Paul in 1 Cor 14:39..."Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Maybe no one was forbidding tongues and Paul was just giving some good guidance?

The disciples had the gift, but new recruits don't.

The new recruits also had the gifts. Remember when Jesus sent out the 72? (Luke 10)

And some random person driving out demons in Jesus' name? (Luke 9:49)

If that gift of tongues is the one done in public, you are right.
Tongues done in private prayer has a different answer.

Says who?

I do.
It is a gift given to those who have received the Holy Ghost.
That is evidenced by Cornelius' group and the twelve at Ephesus.

But can't true believers not have the Holy Spirit gift?

Acts 19
2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

I don't recall Jesus ever speaking about gifts associated with the giving of the Holy Ghost.

Then how come only those in the upper room received the gift and not all of the believers in Jerusalem or elsewhere?

I would answer... failure to turn from sin.
The unrepentant get nothing from God.

Then why do people get other gifts and yet they don't get tongues?

 

[My Rock]

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

If you are implying that they were already saved, then why receive the Holy Ghost? No need if they were already saved!

Acts 19
2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

The passage in Acts 19:2, where Paul asks, "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?" and the disciples respond, "We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost," provides significant insight into the relationship between belief and salvation according to Scripture. This scripture illustrates that belief in Jesus Christ is a crucial step towards salvation, but it is not the full experience of the New Birth as outlined by Jesus in John 3:5, where He states that one must be "born of water and of the Spirit" to enter the Kingdom of God.

Believing in Jesus is the foundational step in the salvation process, but it must be accompanied by the complete New Birth experience, which includes both water baptism (born of water) and the baptism of the Holy Spirit (born of the Spirit). The disciples in Acts 19 had believed in Jesus, but they had not yet experienced the full New Birth that Jesus taught. Their belief was sincere, but it was incomplete in terms of the full plan of salvation.

When Paul encountered these disciples, he recognized that while they had taken an important step by believing, they had not yet received the Holy Spirit, which is essential for the New Birth. This is why Paul instructed them further, leading to their baptism in the name of Jesus Christ and the subsequent infilling of the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:5-6). This moment marked the completion of their New Birth experience, aligning with the full pattern of salvation as taught by Jesus.

Therefore, from a Biblical viewpoint, while belief is necessary and is the first step in the journey of salvation, it must be followed by the New Birth experience—being baptized in Jesus’ name and receiving the Holy Spirit. Only then can one truly be considered saved according to the full biblical doctrine of salvation. The passage in Acts 19 emphasizes that belief alone, without the accompanying experience of being born of water and Spirit, is not the complete salvation experience that Jesus intended for His followers.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Maybe no one was forbidding tongues and Paul was just giving some good guidance?

Paul didn't name names, but felt it necessary to say it

The new recruits also had the gifts. Remember when Jesus sent out the 72? (Luke 10)

Jesus equipt them for service to God.
The gift of the Holy Ghost also equips us for serving God.

And some random person driving out demons in Jesus' name? (Luke 9:49)

Thanks be to God.

Says who?

It was I who just answered you.

But can't true believers not have the Holy Spirit gift?

Sure, in the time between their initial belief and their reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 19
2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

See ?
They didn't even know of the gift, so wouldn't have been praying for it.

Then how come only those in the upper room received the gift and not all of the believers in Jerusalem or elsewhere?

We don't know that they didn't .
Why do you assume so ?

Then why do people get other gifts and yet they don't get tongues?

When and where ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

If you are implying that they were already saved, then why receive the Holy Ghost? No need if they were already saved!

The passage in Acts 19:2, where Paul asks, "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?" and the disciples respond, "We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost," provides significant insight into the relationship between belief and salvation according to Scripture. This scripture illustrates that belief in Jesus Christ is a crucial step towards salvation, but it is not the full experience of the New Birth as outlined by Jesus in John 3:5, where He states that one must be "born of water and of the Spirit" to enter the Kingdom of God.

Believing in Jesus is the foundational step in the salvation process, but it must be accompanied by the complete New Birth experience, which includes both water baptism (born of water) and the baptism of the Holy Spirit (born of the Spirit). The disciples in Acts 19 had believed in Jesus, but they had not yet experienced the full New Birth that Jesus taught. Their belief was sincere, but it was incomplete in terms of the full plan of salvation.

When Paul encountered these disciples, he recognized that while they had taken an important step by believing, they had not yet received the Holy Spirit, which is essential for the New Birth. This is why Paul instructed them further, leading to their baptism in the name of Jesus Christ and the subsequent infilling of the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:5-6). This moment marked the completion of their New Birth experience, aligning with the full pattern of salvation as taught by Jesus.

Therefore, from a Biblical viewpoint, while belief is necessary and is the first step in the journey of salvation, it must be followed by the New Birth experience—being baptized in Jesus’ name and receiving the Holy Spirit. Only then can one truly be considered saved according to the full biblical doctrine of salvation. The passage in Acts 19 emphasizes that belief alone, without the accompanying experience of being born of water and Spirit, is not the complete salvation experience that Jesus intended for His followers.

You are postulating three births.
One from mom, another by baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and a third by the Spirit.
Born of water is natal birth.
Born of the Spirit is the rebirth.

 

[My Rock]

You are postulating three births.
One from mom, another by baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and a third by the Spirit.
Born of water is natal birth.
Born of the Spirit is the rebirth.

Says you not Scripture

This passage, found in 1 Peter 3:21, highlights the significance of baptism in the Christian faith, particularly in the context of salvation. Peter explains that baptism is not merely an external ritual of cleansing—“not the putting away of the filth of the flesh”—but rather it represents a deeper, spiritual reality. Baptism is an “answer of a good conscience toward God,” meaning it is an outward expression of an inward faith and repentance. It is a response to God’s call, demonstrating a believer's commitment to follow Christ and live in accordance with His teachings.

This verse underscores the essential role of baptism in the salvation process. Baptism is more than a symbolic act; it is a vital component of the New Birth experience. It is through baptism in the name of Jesus Christ that believers identify with His death, burial, and resurrection. By being baptized, believers are not merely performing a ritualistic act, but they are entering into a covenant relationship with God, having their sins washed away and rising to new life through the resurrection power of Jesus.

Peter’s reference to baptism saving us “by the resurrection of Jesus Christ” ties this sacrament directly to the core of the Christian faith—the resurrection. It is not the act of immersion itself that saves, but what it represents: the believer’s union with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. The resurrection of Jesus is the power behind baptism, transforming it from a mere ritual into a means of salvation. Thus, baptism is a necessary response of faith, an integral part of the New Birth that aligns believers with the saving work of Christ.

 

[eddif]

Theology:
Redneck understanding IMHO

Old Testament usually Prophets gave the Prophecy. The Prophet may not have fully understood what he was saying by the spirit of God. For instance they spoke of suffering they wondered about, but it was in a spoken language.

On the day of Pentecost Sons and Daughters used tongues to speak an Understandable message to certain foreign groups. Others who did not understand the languages were confused.

A lot of this discussion is about how to do away with confusion.

Tongues plus interpretation equals Prophecy. What do we want? Prophecy.
How do we get a Prophecy (effectively) out to a particular person? Tongues. How do we keep confusion down? We let the crowd in on the message. This is what was done on the day of Pentecost. We just continue to allow the process of giving messages as privately as possible and keep confusion as low as possible.

We do not forbid tongues, but we do manage the confusion.

Some Prophets were killed. A person speaking in tongues should understand that they might be considered drunk (or worse).

Tongues plus interpretation = Prophecy

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Runningman]

Paul didn't name names, but felt it necessary to say it

I don't think church members forbidding spiritual gifts is something anyone did in Scripture. Paul was just throwing caution to the wind.

Jesus equipt them for service to God.
The gift of the Holy Ghost also equips us for serving God.

Thanks be to God.

Amen!

It was I who just answered you.

As far as Scripture mentions, tongues ranks lower on the spiritual gifts scale though. Isn't that relevant since if tongues are important as you say they are then why are they less desirable according to Paul?

1 Cor. 14
1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
5I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Sure, in the time between their initial belief and their reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So they can be saved without tongues then.

See ?
They didn't even know of the gift, so wouldn't have been praying for it.

So someone was preaching to them about Jesus and made no mention of the spiritual gifts and yet they became believers anyway.

We don't know that they didn't .
Why do you assume so ?

Because Jesus was addressing the people who were to go to the upper room and no one else. Why would I assume it applied to anyone else?

When and where ?

All over the old testament, gospels, and the rest of the Bible, and below. Acts is kind of special about tongues because that's where it was first introduced since the gospel was commissioned to be preached to the gentiles as well.

Acts 2
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

 

[Runningman]

If you are implying that they were already saved, then why receive the Holy Ghost? No need if they were already saved!

The passage in Acts 19:2, where Paul asks, "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?" and the disciples respond, "We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost," provides significant insight into the relationship between belief and salvation according to Scripture. This scripture illustrates that belief in Jesus Christ is a crucial step towards salvation, but it is not the full experience of the New Birth as outlined by Jesus in John 3:5, where He states that one must be "born of water and of the Spirit" to enter the Kingdom of God.

Believing in Jesus is the foundational step in the salvation process, but it must be accompanied by the complete New Birth experience, which includes both water baptism (born of water) and the baptism of the Holy Spirit (born of the Spirit). The disciples in Acts 19 had believed in Jesus, but they had not yet experienced the full New Birth that Jesus taught. Their belief was sincere, but it was incomplete in terms of the full plan of salvation.

When Paul encountered these disciples, he recognized that while they had taken an important step by believing, they had not yet received the Holy Spirit, which is essential for the New Birth. This is why Paul instructed them further, leading to their baptism in the name of Jesus Christ and the subsequent infilling of the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:5-6). This moment marked the completion of their New Birth experience, aligning with the full pattern of salvation as taught by Jesus.

Therefore, from a Biblical viewpoint, while belief is necessary and is the first step in the journey of salvation, it must be followed by the New Birth experience—being baptized in Jesus’ name and receiving the Holy Spirit. Only then can one truly be considered saved according to the full biblical doctrine of salvation. The passage in Acts 19 emphasizes that belief alone, without the accompanying experience of being born of water and Spirit, is not the complete salvation experience that Jesus intended for His followers.

You're getting closer as you didn't make tongues an integral part of salvation this time. I love it when people can grow and learn. From my experience, progress is rare when someone is already firmly entrenched in their beliefs about something.

 

[eddif]

If you are implying that they were already saved, then why receive the Holy Ghost? No need if they were already saved!

Why did people believe in Jesus and thus be saved?

That you may believe the Son / Jesus can forgive sins, here is a miracle for you.

Jesus convinced people by the spiritual gifts and special miracles, that he also had the power to save for eternity.

We need power to show people the salvation we speak of is real.

The spiritual gifts are way beyond the natural actions of men not granted gifts.

The believers went to Jerusalem and waited till they received power.

Repent
Believe in Jesus
Receive the Holy Spirit

Also known as Baptisims.


Mississippi redneck
eddif