Speaking in tongues and the Holy Spirit

[Hopeful 2]

Says you not Scripture

I use common sense when deciphering verses.
Jesus said "again" when speaking of birth.
He didn't say "again and again".
Just two births are in question, and birth from mom is the first.

This passage, found in 1 Peter 3:21, highlights the significance of baptism in the Christian faith, particularly in the context of salvation. Peter explains that baptism is not merely an external ritual of cleansing—“not the putting away of the filth of the flesh”—but rather it represents a deeper, spiritual reality. Baptism is an “answer of a good conscience toward God,” meaning it is an outward expression of an inward faith and repentance. It is a response to God’s call, demonstrating a believer's commitment to follow Christ and live in accordance with His teachings.

Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins cannot be minimized, but it has nothing to do with a second or third birth.
Jesus said the second birth is of the Spirit, not baptism for the remission of sins.

This verse underscores the essential role of baptism in the salvation process. Baptism is more than a symbolic act; it is a vital component of the New Birth experience. It is through baptism in the name of Jesus Christ that believers identify with His death, burial, and resurrection. By being baptized, believers are not merely performing a ritualistic act, but they are entering into a covenant relationship with God, having their sins washed away and rising to new life through the resurrection power of Jesus.

Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins is essential for salvation, but the rebirth is of the Spirit and the first birth is from mom.
Your baptism is a third birth.

Peter’s reference to baptism saving us “by the resurrection of Jesus Christ” ties this sacrament directly to the core of the Christian faith—the resurrection. It is not the act of immersion itself that saves, but what it represents: the believer’s union with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. The resurrection of Jesus is the power behind baptism, transforming it from a mere ritual into a means of salvation. Thus, baptism is a necessary response of faith, an integral part of the New Birth that aligns believers with the saving work of Christ.

Is baptismal rebirth done by the Spirit ?
It seems to be done by men in scriptures.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I don't think church members forbidding spiritual gifts is something anyone did in Scripture.

Of course not, but how many posers and Judaizers were there ?
James cites mixed messages in his chapter 3, and gives us the means of determining who is and who is not of God.
Any banishment of speaking in tongues is an idea not of God...salty water.

Paul was just throwing caution to the wind.

I don't know how you mean that.
Do you mean..."erring on the side of caution" ?

Amen!
As far as Scripture mentions, tongues ranks lower on the spiritual gifts scale though. Isn't that relevant since if tongues are important as you say they are then why are they less desirable according to Paul?

It is only less important in the arena of church services/public speaking.
Private prayers is a different arena.

So they can be saved without tongues then.

Were they to die before receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the gift of speaking in tongues, their conversion is doubtful.

So someone was preaching to them about Jesus and made no mention of the spiritual gifts and yet they became believers anyway.

Believers to whom God sent the message of the necessity of receiving the Holy Ghost.
And when they did receive the Holy Ghost, it was manifested by speaking in tongues !

Because Jesus was addressing the people who were to go to the upper room and no one else. Why would I assume it applied to anyone else?

We don't know that nobody else receive the manifestation of having received the gift of the Holy Ghost by speaking in tongues
I did !

All over the old testament, gospels, and the rest of the Bible, and below. Acts is kind of special about tongues because that's where it was first introduced since the gospel was commissioned to be preached to the gentiles as well.
Acts 2
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

So why don't you think it is necessary ?
What means do you use to determine a man's conversion is real ?

 

[My Rock]

I use common sense when deciphering verses.
Jesus said "again" when speaking of birth.
He didn't say "again and again".
Just two births are in question, and birth from mom is the first.

Not two births, just another birth. born of water and of the Spirit
1. It takes both to bring Salvation and new birth.
2. Not speaking about the mother's womb, because if so Nicodemus needed not to ask he would have naturally understood if that is what Jesus meant. Remember he was a teacher of the Law.
3. Without both cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins cannot be minimized, but it has nothing to do with a second or third birth.
Jesus said the second birth is of the Spirit, not baptism for the remission of sins.

Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins is essential for salvation, but the rebirth is of the Spirit and the first birth is from mom.
Your baptism is a third birth.

The connection between baptism and the New Birth is crucial and deeply intertwined. In Acts 2:38, Peter's instruction to "repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" explicitly links baptism with the forgiveness of sins, which is an integral part of the salvation experience.

Baptism is not merely an outward ritual but as a vital component of the New Birth. It represents both a literal and symbolic cleansing, aligning with Jesus' teaching in John 3:5 that one must be "born of water and of the Spirit." The act of baptism in Jesus' name signifies the believer's identification with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection (Romans 6:3-4), and serves as a public declaration of faith and repentance.

The Holy Spirit's baptism signifies the internal spiritual transformation, water baptism is the outward expression of that inner change and the means through which believers receive remission of sins. In this light, the "another birth" encompasses both the baptism of the Spirit and the baptism of water, each playing a crucial role in the comprehensive experience of salvation. Thus, water baptism, as described in Acts 2:38, is not separate from but complementary to the spiritual rebirth, reflecting the holistic nature of the New Birth as taught in Scripture.

Is baptismal rebirth done by the Spirit ?
It seems to be done by men in scriptures.

When you are Baptized you are not placing your faith in the man baptizing you or even the act of getting wet your faith is in what it represents. We bury our old self and rise as a new creation in Christ Jesus. According to Acts it takes both repentance and baptism in water to remove sin.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Not two births, just another birth. born of water and of the Spirit

Correct !
The first from a mom, and the second by God !

1. It takes both to bring Salvation and new birth.

Every unconverted man has been born once.

2. Not speaking about the mother's womb, because if so Nicodemus needed not to ask he would have naturally understood if that is what Jesus meant. Remember he was a teacher of the Law.

That second birth is from God.
The first was from a mom.
Two births.
One by God

3. Without both cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Correct !
If one hasn't been born of a woman, he can't be reborn of God.

The connection between baptism and the New Birth is crucial and deeply intertwined. In Acts 2:38, Peter's instruction to "repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" explicitly links baptism with the forgiveness of sins, which is an integral part of the salvation experience.

I agree.
For by it is the destruction of the old man which was born of a woman, and the being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4-6)

Baptism is not merely an outward ritual but as a vital component of the New Birth. It represents both a literal and symbolic cleansing, aligning with Jesus' teaching in John 3:5 that one must be "born of water and of the Spirit." The act of baptism in Jesus' name signifies the believer's identification with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection (Romans 6:3-4), and serves as a public declaration of faith and repentance.

I see nothing symbolic about a real occurrence.

The Holy Spirit's baptism signifies the internal spiritual transformation, water baptism is the outward expression of that inner change and the means through which believers receive remission of sins. In this light, the "another birth" encompasses both the baptism of the Spirit and the baptism of water, each playing a crucial role in the comprehensive experience of salvation. Thus, water baptism, as described in Acts 2:38, is not separate from but complementary to the spiritual rebirth, reflecting the holistic nature of the New Birth as taught in Scripture.

You are getting too philosophical for me.

When you are Baptized you are not placing your faith in the man baptizing you or even the act of getting wet your faith is in what it represents. We bury our old self and rise as a new creation in Christ Jesus. According to Acts it takes both repentance and baptism in water to remove sin.

When I was baptized, my faith was in what would happen.
It washed away my past sins.
Without a real. permanent, repentance from sin, baptism is just a bath.

 

[MisterE]

real tongues are very powerful and isn't meant to be something for the benefit of the unlearned and unbelievers anyway.

1 Cor 14.22 So then, languages are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers...
What does that mean?

 

[Hopeful 2]

1 Cor 14.22 So then, languages are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers...
What does that mean?

Three answers for that...
First, tongues, (as a private conversation between God and the prayer), only works for believers, as God heareth not sinners. Tongues is not a "sign" for believers using it.
Second, hearing some new convert speak in tongues, (not in a mixed believer/unbeliever setting), is the proof of their repentance and conversion. It is a "sign" for the members of the church who don't yet trust the new convert; in a sense, unbelievers.
Third, a translated interpretation of tongues, in a service setting, may be heeded by an unbeliever.

 

[MisterE]

Three answers for that...
First, tongues, (as a private conversation between God and the prayer), only works for believers, as God heareth not sinners. Tongues is not a "sign" for believers using it.
Second, hearing some new convert speak in tongues, (not in a mixed believer/unbeliever setting), is the proof of their repentance and conversion. It is a "sign" for the members of the church who don't yet trust the new convert; in a sense, unbelievers.
Third, a translated interpretation of tongues, in a service setting, may be heeded by an unbeliever.

Thanks for that reply. Let me ask you this:

Do you believe the gift of tongues exercised in Acts 2 on Pentecost is the same gift of tongues described in 1 Cor 14?

 

[eddif]

Thanks for that reply. Let me ask you this:

Do you believe the gift of tongues exercised in Acts 2 on Pentecost is the same gift of tongues described in 1 Cor 14?

God wants to help us in life and Godliness.

Acts 2 is the Jewish part of the one new man. Acts 10 is the gentile inclusion into the one new man.

Tongues were at both places, but the Jews knew about the spiritual gifts. The gentiles get a little instruction in 1 Corinthians 14.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[MisterE]

God wants to help us in life and Godliness.

Acts 2 is the Jewish part of the one new man. Acts 10 is the gentile inclusion into the one new man.

Tongues were at both places, but the Jews knew about the spiritual gifts. The gentiles get a little instruction in 1 Corinthians 14.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Acts 2.8, And how is it that each one of us hears them in our own native languages? (NET Bible) Are the languages listed in Acts 2 the ones that the Corinthians were speaking?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Thanks for that reply. Let me ask you this:

Do you believe the gift of tongues exercised in Acts 2 on Pentecost is the same gift of tongues described in 1 Cor 14?

Only partially.
Verses 2, 4, 14, and 15 speak of the personal, Spirit-to-God via man's tongue.
It is the proof of having received the gift of the Holy Ghost, like Acts 2.
The other verses primarily pertain to speaking in tongues in a church meeting setting.
Either with, or without, unbelieving visitors.
That kind of tongues could be either a foreign language, or the "tongues of angels".
It shouldn't be done unless there is an interpreter present.

Hope that helps.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Acts 2.8, And how is it that each one of us hears them in our own native languages? (NET Bible) Are the languages listed in Acts 2 the ones that the Corinthians were speaking?

Scripture neither says it is or that it isn't.
I lean towards "the tongues of angels" in that situation.
1 Cor 14 is seems to be primarily a "during church meetings" kind of situation.
Had they been evangelizing on the streets of a foreign city, I would say it was that foreign language situation.

 

[eddif]

Acts 2.8, And how is it that each one of us hears them in our own native languages? (NET Bible) Are the languages listed in Acts 2 the ones that the Corinthians were speaking?

Those hearers in their for.eign lands:
Are all descendants of the Ezekiel dispersion 400 years before Acts 2.
There are also Jewish procelytes of some lands (converted to the Jewish faith).
These are all resulted from those who grieved over the sins of Israel in Ezekiel Jeresulam slaughter 400 years earlier.

Mississippi rednevk
eddif

 

[eddif]

Those hearers in their for.eign lands:
Are all descendants of the Ezekiel dispersion 400 years before Acts 2.
There are also Jewish procelytes of some lands (converted to the Jewish faith).
These are all resulted from those who grieved over the sins of Israel in Ezekiel Jeresulam slaughter 400 years earlier.

Mississippi rednevk
eddif

Read Ezekiel chapter 9
eddif