Bruce.Leiter
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- Oct 12, 2024
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On what do you base your "suspicion" in the Bible, Beetow?
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Did the Son have a beginning?
- Thread starter Faith and Grace
- Start date
The word 'firstborn' implies a beginning as well as being created.
- Apr 2, 2003
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What is your evidence for this?
The definition of the word itself.
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Which is what? And how is it used throughout the Bible?
Decide for yourself...
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
"firstborn" primary search results are listed below along with dictionary aides, FAQs, and Lexiconc.
www.blueletterbible.org
- Apr 2, 2003
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No, that isn't how this works. You made a truth claim; the onus is on you to prove it. I've asked some questions and you need to answer them.Decide for yourself...
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
"firstborn" primary search results are listed below along with dictionary aides, FAQs, and Lexiconc.
Here are a few more supporting scriptures: Genesis1:26; Proverbs 8:22-31; Micah 5:2; John 17:5; Revelation 3:14.
Beetow
Member
- Dec 14, 2024
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The theocratic kingdom is reputed to be a place of peace.
● Isa 11:9 . .They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth
shall be full of the knowledge of Yahweh, as the waters cover the sea.
In addition; God prefers to associate with peaceable folks.
● Matt 5:9 . . Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.
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Faith and Grace
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- May 31, 2025
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- #32
read the next verse.
Ex 4:22
Gods Literal Firstborn would be a being not a people. He has one whether you believe that to be Jesus or not.
The very first spirit God formed would be His firstborn if it's Jesus then He would also be the beginning of the creation of God as in the Firstborn of all creation not just the firstborn being and Jesus was chosen before the world began not at the incarnation and in Him, the fullness was pleased to dwell. Col 1:19 -from the will of another.
Ps 89
God appointed His Firstborn to Davids line is what I suggest to you and Jesus fulfils the promise God made to David that His line and throne would continue forever.
God appoints HIS Firstborn to Davids line as the Christ is the most exalted not David. As we read in Psalm 110 if David calls the Christ Lord how can he be the greatest King?
psalm 89:27-The most exalted is the Christ not David
And I will appoint him to be my firstborn,
the most exalted of the kings of the earth.
I agree with begotten I disagree with no beginning. So I agree in part. I don't know how you believe a coeternal person is from any other person.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
begotten from the Father before all ages,
God from God,
Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made;
of the same essence as the Father. -Col 1:19 Gifted not formed from the will of another
In the very same passage of scripture "The Firstborn from the dead" (first to rise from the dead)
Jesus is the beginning of the resurrection of the dead and the first to rise from the dead.
Jesus is the beginning of the creation and the first to be created. He is a being hence "born" from the Father.
The writer of Hebrews used Firstborn twice in regard to about the "Son"
when God brings the Firstborn into the world He commands all His angels to bow to Him. -Why the need?
And the church of the firstborn. That's very specific language to call the church. Not the church of God or the church of Christ or the church of the Son.
The Fristborn of all creation was before the world began.
God brought the world into existence through His Son. "Let us"
In regard to God it is written
No God was formed before me. -His words not mine. Why would He state "was formed" in regard to a God such as Himself if He always was rather then there was no god before me?
There is no scripture to state He has a beginning.
So does the bible explicitly state God has no beginning?
I think we should be discussing in terms of unbegotten and begotten.
IF the Father has a beginning it could not be by any other being. "Unbegotten"
So is the Son unbegotten or has a beginning by the Father? "begotten"
No God was formed before me. -His words not mine. Why would He state "was formed" in regard to a God such as Himself if He always was rather then there was no god before me?
There is no scripture to state He has a beginning.
So does the bible explicitly state God has no beginning?
I think we should be discussing in terms of unbegotten and begotten.
IF the Father has a beginning it could not be by any other being. "Unbegotten"
So is the Son unbegotten or has a beginning by the Father? "begotten"
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No, he isn't. Lazarus rose before him, as did at least three people in the OT. Jesus was the first to rise in newness of life, having defeated death so as to never die again.
No, that cannot be. John 1:1-3, 10, 1 Cor. 8:6, Phil. 2:5-8, Col. 1:16-17, and Heb. 1:10-12, among others, absolutely rule out the possibility that the Son came into existence.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)
Again, if "all things were created" by the Son, "in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities," if "all things were created through him," then it is logically impossible that he came into being at some point in time.
"Firstborn" in verse 15 speaks of his preeminence over all creation, that is, of having the standing, privileges, and rights as a son who is the firstborn (see the OT). That is the whole point of verses 16-17--to show why he is preeminent.
Sure, but it has different meanings and the context determines which meaning, including the context of the entirety of Scripture. You cannot simply ignore the clear context of Heb. 1:10-12, in which the Father speaks of the Son as being Yahweh, nor the other uses in Scripture which have nothing to do with being born.
Because the whole point of Heb. 1 is to show the superiority of the Son to the angels, part of which is that the Son is Yahweh.
This isn't a reference to the Son. Jesus is in the next verse (Heb. 12:24):
Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,
Heb 12:23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
Heb 12:24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. (ESV)
These all refer to different things, different persons and groups of persons and beings.
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Because he is contrasting his eternal existence with those false gods that are formed by human hands. Nothing more.
And there is no Scripture that states the Son had a beginning.
It's implied throughout Scripture, just as it for the Son, largely in the NT.
The problem is, you're misunderstanding what "begotten" means in regards to the Son. It speaks of his uniqueness and that he is the one and only Son, not that he had a beginning. If he didn't exist at one point in eternity past and had a beginning, he would be "created" or "made," no matter how much you deny it. If the Son came into being, then that would have been the beginning of creation, and John 1:1-3, 1 Cor. 8:6, and Col. 1:16-17 would be absolutely false.
What does begotten mean in the Bible?
AI Overview
In the Bible, "begotten" primarily means to beget, to father, or to bring forth as offspring. It signifies a relationship of origin, particularly between a father and his child. In a theological sense, especially when referring to Jesus, "begotten" highlights his unique relationship with God the Father, emphasizing that Jesus is not created but eternally exists as the Son of God.
Corn Pop
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- Feb 17, 2013
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If people rose from the dead before Christ like Lazareth and many others in the OT, and Christ was there from the beginning, then the world was saved before it began because God is wise, the crooked one was already defeated before creation because God is smart, yet Christ needed to come in the flesh to make it happen and some got to witness, how great. Praise God.
