Do Denominational Differences Really Matter?

[Sinthesis]

IMO the desire to have one's convictions reinforced rather than be informed of possibly uncomfortable truths is what fuels the segregational audiences of MSNBC and FOX News.

 

[Blake]

Probably not all that interested. I'm not big on ritual magic posturing as actions of faith. The charismatic nonsense postures broke me out of that form of thinking and it kind of carried over to any kind of rituals/incantations to manipulate God in Christ.

I wonder how many religious elites back in Jesus' day considered His works ritual magic, when He spit onto the ground and formed mud to heal the blind mans eyes. Or maybe when the leper dipped seven times in the Jordan?

 

[smaller]

I wonder how many religious elites back in Jesus' day considered His works ritual magic, when He spit onto the ground and formed mud to heal the blind mans eyes. Or maybe when the leper dipped seven times in the Jordan?

Ah, yes. Many a poser has tried to replicate/duplicate what Jesus did. Charismania is filled to the brim with such "stories" that they peddle to the masses about "what" they did that was supposedly similar.

There are many sights to be had in "miracles."

Numbers 14:22
Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;

In miracles, there is also information, i.e. His Voice.

If God has somethings to say to man, the statements were often accompanied by miracles, to confirm the "message."

Miracles/signs and wonders are not always "good" either. The destruction of the armies of Egypt was indeed a miracle, and it didn't turn out too well for the recipients that drowned in the sea. Or for Herod when the Angel of the Lord struck him dead. Or Ananias/Sapphira.

The charismatic pews are filled with "sign seekers"

Matthew 12:39
But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

 

[Blake]

Ah, yes. Many a poser has tried to replicate/duplicate what Jesus did. Charismania is filled to the brim with such "stories" that they peddle to the masses about "what" they did that was supposedly similar.

There are many sights to be had in "miracles."

Numbers 14:22
Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;

In miracles, there is also information, i.e. His Voice.

If God has somethings to say to man, the statements were often accompanied by miracles, to confirm the "message."

Miracles/signs and wonders are not always "good" either. The destruction of the armies of Egypt was indeed a miracle, and it didn't turn out too well for the recipients that drowned in the sea. Or for Herod when the Angel of the Lord struck him dead. Or Ananias/Sapphira.

The charismatic pews are filled with "sign seekers"

Matthew 12:39
But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Such broad generalizations you make.

 

[smaller]

Such broad generalizations you make.

If you spent as much time as I have with lying religious pseudo christian charlatans, you'd understand.

 

[Blake]

If you spent as much time as I have with lying religious pseudo christian charlatans, you'd understand.

I won't argue with that, my friend. I've seen a lot of it too and it gives charismatics a bad name. Shame though, because there are real deal charismatics out there, diamonds in the rough, hidden away from these dime a dozen wannabes.

 

[ezra]

foot washing is not replicate/duplicate what Jesus did . personalty i read john 13 he told his disciples he left a example that they should do. foot washing like communion should only be done under the influence of the Holy spirit any thing out side of that its a mere ceremony.

in fact when we have a church service it should under the direction of the spirit. to many go to church cold indifferent really not interested


. want a few hymns and a sermonet go to the dinette and smoke a cigarette and feel good about there religious adventure

 

[Blake]

foot washing is not replicate/duplicate what Jesus did . personalty i read john 13 he told his disciples he left a example that they should do. foot washing like communion should only be done under the influence of the Holy spirit any thing out side of that its a mere ceremony.

in fact when we have a church service it should under the direction of the spirit. to many go to church cold indifferent really not interested


. want a few hymns and a sermonet go to the dinette and smoke a cigarette and feel good about there religious adventure

Right on brother.

 

[Webb]

I wonder how many religious elites back in Jesus' day considered His works ritual magic, when He spit onto the ground and formed mud to heal the blind mans eyes. Or maybe when the leper dipped seven times in the Jordan?

I wonder how many religious elites today can spit on the ground and make mud and with it give the blind sight? How many can command the leper to dip 7 times in any water and see him come up whole?
God bless,
W
Rom.16:16
TO BE DEEP IN SCRIPTURE IS TO CEASE BEING CATHOLIC, PROTESTANT OR JEW --WEBB

 

[smaller]

I wonder how many religious elites today can spit on the ground and make mud and with it give the blind sight? How many can command the leper to dip 7 times in any water and see him come up whole?
God bless,
W

In observation of the abundance of "divisions" and "sects" within christianity, it would appear that dividing believers seems to be what has been in vogue for quite some time now.

I'd have to honestly say that "anything" that happens is from God, in some way or another.

Hebrews 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

God's Adverse Judgments are and have been continually upon the earth for quite some time. I might view this activity as "Patient Tolerance" in the light of Romans 9:22.

The "last actions" of God are found in scriptures, as "yet once more I will shake-"

Hebrews 12:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.http://legacy.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+12:27&version=KJV
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

I might even consider that the "meatier" parts of scripture are found in 1 Cor. 15, where the "Ultimate Quest" of Jesus is to put down all rule, power and authority. Divisions in the church and in the world are a real part of that putting down. It's not that God's been necessarily idle for the last couple of thousand years.

Nor, does Jesus "need" us to "make Him" the Head of all things. He is quite entirely capable of getting the job done.

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

 

[MrWGW]

Welcome to CF.net! So glad to have you here. I love seeing the Orthodox on these forums, you guys have a rich treasure trove of theology and I always enjoy reading your perspectives on things. Others on this forum don't share my enthusiasm, as I'm sure you might expect, so I apologize in advance on behalf of CF for confused members who equate Roman Catholics as the "Whore of Babylon" and the Orthodox as her strange Greek and Russian cousins, LOL. Know that you are welcome, despite any accusations or insults that come your way. I was telling another Orthodox poster here just about a month ago to consider it a podvig of sorts to endure these things, and shine your light regardless, because you never know who you might be helping. Okay, enough of that. Back on topic for me.

I don't think denominational differences make that much of a difference. Beneath the cross is a level playing ground. The Spirit blows where He will, and despite our aversion to that (whether directly or indirectly), no one denomination has a monopoly on Him.

Thank you for the warm welcome!

 

[MrWGW]

Probably not all that interested. I'm not big on ritual magic posturing as actions of faith. The charismatic nonsense postures broke me out of that form of thinking and it kind of carried over to any kind of rituals/incantations to manipulate God in Christ.

How do you define "ritual magic"?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

foot washing is not replicate/duplicate what Jesus did . personalty i read john 13 he told his disciples he left a example that they should do. foot washing like communion should only be done under the influence of the Holy spirit any thing out side of that its a mere ceremony.

in fact when we have a church service it should under the direction of the spirit. to many go to church cold indifferent really not interested


. want a few hymns and a sermonet go to the dinette and smoke a cigarette and feel good about there religious adventure

I can't do that anymore.
My wife won't let me smoke.

 

[smaller]

How do you define "ritual magic"?

Pretty much anything that makes relationship with God in Christ into a ritual, instead.

 

[MrWGW]

Pretty much anything that makes relationship with God in Christ into a ritual, instead.

What about baptism? This seems to be rather emphatically commanded at the end of the Gospel of Matthew, including the Trinitarian formula.

Also, on this point, there is a distinction between uninteresting secular ritual or superstitious rituals or those related to psychological infirmities such as OCD, and liturgy, which is spiritually compelling (which is why most Christians do worship in an organized collective manner, and of those, the greater number are following one or more liturgical texts such as a hymnal, the Psalter, a Missal, or in the case of Orthodoxy, a truly epic array of servoce books, chiefly hymnals, as many as 50 volumes not counting music, variations on the same thing and so on, including a meta-book, the Typikon). Actually the Byzantine liturgy is so aptly named that even though all services are governed by fixed rubrics, you could not attend the same service twice in your lifetime (the Typikon repeats on something like a 537 year cycle). I myself am not inclined to regard any of this as ritual magic; I cant imagine that wizards would need anywhere near as many grimoires as we have hymnals.

 

[smaller]

What about baptism? This seems to be rather emphatically commanded at the end of the Gospel of Matthew, including the Trinitarian formula.

Most of these constructs as they are practiced today are how people have decided to establish their own constructs of Jesus, on their "external" terms and conditions.

Jesus lives in our hearts, by faith. There is no 'external exercise' that is able to define or manipulate that internal reality. He is not confined or forced to "move" by any man's constructs of anything.

These "external actions" and "external understandings" do not define an internal relationship.

Also, on this point, there is a distinction between uninteresting secular ritual or superstitious rituals or those related to psychological infirmities such as OCD, and liturgy, which is spiritually compelling (which is why most Christians do worship in an organized collective manner, and of those, the greater number are following one or more liturgical texts such as a hymnal, the Psalter, a Missal, or in the case of Orthodoxy, a truly epic array of servoce books, chiefly hymnals, as many as 50 volumes not counting music, variations on the same thing and so on, including a meta-book, the Typikon). Actually the Byzantine liturgy is so aptly named that even though all services are governed by fixed rubrics, you could not attend the same service twice in your lifetime (the Typikon repeats on something like a 537 year cycle). I myself am not inclined to regard any of this as ritual magic; I cant imagine that wizards would need anywhere near as many grimoires as we have hymnals.

Let's just face an ugly little fact here, that these constructs are used and employed by believers to justify themselves, in these actions, and possibly condemn other believers who have other "rituals" and "practices."

In condemnation, these things are worthless, other than to "instill" false justifications of ourselves or our sects, and to condemn other believers who have some jot or tittle out of place in the minds of others.

 

[MrWGW]

Most of these constructs as they are practiced today are how people have decided to establish their own constructs of Jesus, on their "external" terms and conditions.

Jesus lives in our hearts, by faith. There is no 'external exercise' that is able to define or manipulate that internal reality. He is not confined or forced to "move" by any man's constructs of anything.

These "external actions" and "external understandings" do not define an internal relationship.


Let's just face an ugly little fact here, that these constructs are used and employed by believers to justify themselves, in these actions, and possibly condemn other believers who have other "rituals" and "practices."

In condemnation, these things are worthless, other than to "instill" false justifications of ourselves or our sects, and to condemn other believers who have some jot or tittle out of place in the minds of others.

The RCs and Orthodox have a multiplicity of liturgical rites. For example, in Oriental Orthodoxy there are four entirely different rites, and regional variations within these; Eastern Orthodoxy has at least two, and the RCs have one liturgical rite to correspond with each Orthodox rite, and at least two Eastern rites that we lack, plus several obscure western liturgical rites, for example, the Ambrosian liturgy of Milan. Interestingly, these churches all regard each others liturgies as being generally compatible; the RCs have a modified Anglican liturgy now,and the Anglicans have on occasion used the Roman Rite since the 19th century, and there are some now who enjoy using the Byzantine Rite.

I am inclined to regard liturgy as unifying rather than as divisive given that all liturgies share common elements going back at least as far as the third century, For example, in all of the ancient services of Holy Communion, you will find an anaphora with the same words of institution, the sanctus ("Holy, holy, holy..."), the Lord's Prayer, the creed, scripture readings culminating in the Gospel, and so on. They are in fact so similiar that only an enthusiast like myself enjoys comparing them; an Angican bishop, the dean of St. Paul's in 1910, once remarked that he did not have an interest in liturgiology, nor did he collect postage stamps.

Most of the bitter disputes, if not all, between the liturgical denominations, do not relate to the structure or essential content of their liturgy, but rather relate to polity, ecclesiology, and various theological questions such as the filioque.

 

[smaller]

and various theological questions such as the filioque.

The reality is that these "sects" have constructed their own respective mountains of differences and disputes that they'll NEVER resolve or get over. They can continue to fight about those four little words.

If they ever resolve this, then they can work on the remaining mountains of other stuff they've concocted.

In short, it'll never happen.

I could care less what they do. Anyone who "buys in" to these religious games is required to (potentially) condemn the other believers. One of these "sects" has even gone so far as to potentially condemn anyone who disagrees with any of their sects "official findings." Even authorizing the penalty of death for anyone, if done by civil authorities. It's the biggest scam on the planet imho.

Really the "opposite" or "opposer of" of christianity. They really do want to "kill" anyone who disagrees with them. What a shame.

 

[Blake]

I wonder how many religious elites today can spit on the ground and make mud and with it give the blind sight? How many can command the leper to dip 7 times in any water and see him come up whole?
God bless,
W
Rom.16:16
TO BE DEEP IN SCRIPTURE IS TO CEASE BEING CATHOLIC, PROTESTANT OR JEW --WEBB

Two points I'd like to share: There are no religious elites who can do these things you ask, because religion doesn't enable anyone to do works such as these.

The other point is, there are still Spirit-filled miracle workers in the world today, undoubtedly.

 

[MrWGW]

The reality is that these "sects" have constructed their own respective mountains of differences and disputes that they'll NEVER resolve or get over. They can continue to fight about those four little words.

If they ever resolve this, then they can work on the remaining mountains of other stuff they've concocted.

In short, it'll never happen.

I could care less what they do. Anyone who "buys in" to these religious games is required to (potentially) condemn the other believers. One of these "sects" has even gone so far as to potentially condemn anyone who disagrees with any of their sects "official findings." Even authorizing the penalty of death for anyone, if done by civil authorities. It's the biggest scam on the planet imho.

Really the "opposite" or "opposer of" of christianity. They really do want to "kill" anyone who disagrees with them. What a shame.

The majority of schisms have healed, however; there are only three major schisms that remain other than the multiplicity of Protestant denominations.