This is symbolic! Nobody ever ate Jesus' flesh or drank His blood.
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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Do I have to be baptised and partake in the eucharist?
- Thread starter SyrianMariam
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I believed that you were serious after reading your first few posts. Now I'm convinced that you're a troll.
This is just Catholic dogma. Since I think for myself (instead of following the teachings of men), I will continue in the truth.
If you want to play games, then answer this: Jesus said "This cup is the new covenant in my blood". Are you atcually drinking from the cup that Jesus held in His hand? So, if you drink from another cup, it is heresy.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
How is the Eucharist a ritual Jaybo?
How could it not be a requirement when Jesus Himself said:
John 6:53
So Jesus said again, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you cannot have eternal life within you.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
You should read a book called THE FOURTH CUP by Scott Hahn.
Mungo
Member
No it isn't symbolic.
“This is my body which is for you."
“This cup is the new covenant in my blood.
Mungo
Member
Continue in your truth., not the truth
Jesus didn't say this symbolic cup.
Moreover it was the cup that Jesus was holding that held his blood, not the cups that the apostles had, therefore this cup.
If it was symbolic then surely the wine in the apostles cups was just as good for symbolising Christ's blood.
But that doesn't mean that we have to have the actual cup that Jesus held and he could not have intended that or the apostles could not have gone into the whole world and still obeyed "Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance" of me.”
Obviously this is figurative, not literal. It is impossible to eat Jesus' flesh or drink His blood. What Jesus is implying is that a person must appropriate Jesus sacrifice for her/his self personally.
Also, since the ritual of consuming the bread (Jesus' symbolic body) and the wine (Jesus' symbolic blood) is done repeatedly, it is to remember His sacrifice. Otherwise it would only have to be done once.
Notice carefully what Paul wrote. "For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. [obviously symbolic] Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way he took the cup also, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. [also symbolic] Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes." 1 Corinthians 11:23-26
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I think jaybo and others don't understand the true meaning of
John 6:53
So Jesus said again, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you cannot have eternal life within you.
I'm not a big fan of "going to the Greek", but sometimes it does help and this is one of them....
5315. phago
phago: I eat
Original Word: φάγω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: phago
Phonetic Spelling: (fag'-o)
Definition: eat
Usage: I eat, partake of food; met: I devour, consume (e.g. as rust does); used only in fut. and 2nd aor. tenses.
I devour....
Some dictionaries say: I chew...
John 6:53
So Jesus said again, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you cannot have eternal life within you.
I'm not a big fan of "going to the Greek", but sometimes it does help and this is one of them....
5315. phago
phago: I eat
Original Word: φάγω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: phago
Phonetic Spelling: (fag'-o)
Definition: eat
Usage: I eat, partake of food; met: I devour, consume (e.g. as rust does); used only in fut. and 2nd aor. tenses.
I devour....
Some dictionaries say: I chew...
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
You know Jaybo, I've thought of this for about 40 years now.
I'm coming more and more to believe that Jesus meant it literally.
How does a person symbolically eat His flesh and drink His blood?
Look at John 6:53...look it up.
It doesn't sound like the writer meant it figuratively.
It's something to study.
Mungo
Member
Both Catholics and Orthodox (both varieties) believe Jesus literally meant what he said.
The early Fathers also believed it.
Ignatius of Antioch
"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Epistle to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).
Ignatius of Antioch
"Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God...
"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Epistle to the Smyrnaeans 6:2; 7:1 [A.D. 110]).
Justin Martyr
"We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined.
"For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66:1-20 [A.D. 148]).
Irenaeus
"If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood?" (Against Heresies 4:33-32 [A.D. 148]).
Irenaeus
"He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies.
"When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receives the Word of God and becomes the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life--flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord, and is in fact a member of him?" (Against Heresies 5:2 [A.D. 148]).
Clement of Alexandria
"'Eat my flesh,' [Jesus] says, 'and drink my blood.' The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients. He delivers over his flesh and pours out his blood, and nothing is lacking for the growth of his children" (Paidagogos 1:6;43;3 [A.D. 202]).
And more after that if you want them.
Have you actually, truly eaten Jesus' own flesh? And truly drunk Jesus' own blood? If so, how did you do that?
Was someone at the cross collecting His blood and saving it for others thousands of years later to drink? Did someone take a piece of His actual body and preserve it for thousands of years for others to eat? (I apologize for stating this so crudely!)
Obviously the bread and wine are symbols of Jesus' body and blood. One eats and drinks to remember Jesus' sacrifice on her/his behalf. By His death, those who have accepted His sacrifice of Himself on their behalf have gained eternal life.
1 Corinthians 11:26, "For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes."
John 3:16, "“For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Read 1 Corinthians 11:26 again.
What bread?
Jesus said THIS IS MY BODY, as He held the bread.
Which would be given up for us the next day.
He broke it, just as His body would be broken for us.
The bread is clearly symbolic. If Jesus (the person) is holding the bread, then He cannot be both. He broke the bread, yet His body was intact when He did so. The same applies to the wine. It is symbolic of Jesus' blood. He was not holding a cup of His own blood!
Drinking the wine and eating the bread is a ritual to remind us of Jesus' sacrifice on our behalf.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I can't debate this too much because I used to agree with you but am starting to change my mind.
If the bread and wine is just a symbol, then was the crucifixion just a symbol?
I think that the bread and the wine is what makes Jesus' sacrifice into a showing of God's love for us.
It's not easy for me to explain this right now at this moment in time - maybe as I study it more.
So what does Jesus' body and blood actually taste like? Since I'm not a cannibal, I have never eaten human flesh and drank human blood.
What Jesus said is clearly and obviously symbolic. He would never ask anyone to become a cannibal! It was because He was misunderstood (taken literally) that many people left and stopped believing in Him.
John 6:44-65, "No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me, and I will raise that person up on the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me. Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father. Very truly, I tell you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live forever, and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day, 55 for my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which the ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this bread will live forever.” He said these things while he was teaching in a synagogue at Capernaum.
When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This teaching is difficult; who can accept it?” But Jesus, being aware that his disciples were complaining about it, said to them, “Does this offend you? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But among you there are some who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who were the ones who did not believe and who was the one who would betray him. And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted by the Father.”
Clearly, Jesus was speaking symbolically! Do you really think that Jesus was asking His followers to become cannibals? Similarly, when we eat the bread and drink the wine, they are symbolic of His body and blood. Nobody is actually devouring Jesus!!!
Mariam,
If you believe in Christ Jesus (his death, burial, and resurrection) and acknowledge Him as your one and only Lord and Savior, then rest assured in Him and try not to concern/confuse yourself with all of man’s many technicalities.
Mungo
Member
jaybo
I've been thinking about this and a couple of scriptures came to mind that at first might not seem relevant. But bear with me.
Firstly the incident in John 2 at Cana in Galilee.
At the marriage feast they run out of wine.
Jesus changes 6 jars of water, each containing 20-30 gallons, into wine - the best wine.
This wine wasn't taken from the existing stock of wine in the world. Jesus didn't ship in wine from somewhere else.
It was in addition to the wine in the world.
And it wasn't water that was symbolically wine.
I believe that the God who changed water into wine can also change wine into his blood. He doesn't need to cut himself to bleed out that blood. He can just change wine into his blood.
Secondly consider the beginning of Luke's gospel.
The angel Gabriel come to Zechariah with a message from God that his wife is to conceive a son. But Zechariah sees a problem. His wife is barren and to old to conceive a child so he doesn't believe the angel and is punished for his disbelief.
The Gabriel appears to Mary with a similar message - she is to bear a son. But again there is a problem - she is a virgin. But this time Mary believes the angel but is puzzled as to how this is going to happen. She asks "How shall this be...?"
I think Mary shows us how we should react when God tells us something that doesn't seem possible. We should believe but then ask "How shall this be?" We may or may not get an answer.
The quotes I gave earlier from the Early Fathers showed that the early church believe Jesus literally but do not seem to have an explanation of how it could be, except it be a miracle.
Here are a couple of later quotes that make that point
Cyril of Jerusalem
"Do not, therefore, regard the bread and wine as simply that; for they are, according to the Master's declaration, the body and blood of Christ. Even though the senses suggest to you the other, let faith make you firm.
"Do not judge in this matter by taste, but be fully assured by the faith, not doubting that you have been deemed worthy of the body and blood of Christ...[Since you are] fully convinced that the apparent bread is not bread, even though it is sensible to the taste, but the body of Christ, and that the apparent wine is not wine, even though the taste would have it so,...partake of that bread as something spiritual, and put a cheerful face on your soul" (Catechetical Discourses; Mystagogic 4, 22:9 [A.D. 350]).
Theodore of Mopsuestia
"When [Christ] gave the bread he did not say, 'This is the symbol of my body,' but, 'This is my body.' In the same way, when he gave the cup of his blood he did not say, '‘This is the symbol of my blood,' but, 'This is my blood'; for he wanted us to look upon the [Eucharistic elements] after their reception of grace and the coming of the Holy Spirit not according to their nature, but receive them as they are, the body and blood of our Lord. We ought...not regard [the elements] merely as bread and cup, but as the body and blood of the Lord, into which they were transformed by the descent of the Holy Spirit" (Catechetical Homilies 5:1 [A.D. 428]).
In time the church in the west came up with and explanation - transubstantiation. I think the (Eastern) Orthodox prefer to leave it as a mystery.
I've been thinking about this and a couple of scriptures came to mind that at first might not seem relevant. But bear with me.
Firstly the incident in John 2 at Cana in Galilee.
At the marriage feast they run out of wine.
Jesus changes 6 jars of water, each containing 20-30 gallons, into wine - the best wine.
This wine wasn't taken from the existing stock of wine in the world. Jesus didn't ship in wine from somewhere else.
It was in addition to the wine in the world.
And it wasn't water that was symbolically wine.
I believe that the God who changed water into wine can also change wine into his blood. He doesn't need to cut himself to bleed out that blood. He can just change wine into his blood.
Secondly consider the beginning of Luke's gospel.
The angel Gabriel come to Zechariah with a message from God that his wife is to conceive a son. But Zechariah sees a problem. His wife is barren and to old to conceive a child so he doesn't believe the angel and is punished for his disbelief.
The Gabriel appears to Mary with a similar message - she is to bear a son. But again there is a problem - she is a virgin. But this time Mary believes the angel but is puzzled as to how this is going to happen. She asks "How shall this be...?"
I think Mary shows us how we should react when God tells us something that doesn't seem possible. We should believe but then ask "How shall this be?" We may or may not get an answer.
The quotes I gave earlier from the Early Fathers showed that the early church believe Jesus literally but do not seem to have an explanation of how it could be, except it be a miracle.
Here are a couple of later quotes that make that point
Cyril of Jerusalem
"Do not, therefore, regard the bread and wine as simply that; for they are, according to the Master's declaration, the body and blood of Christ. Even though the senses suggest to you the other, let faith make you firm.
"Do not judge in this matter by taste, but be fully assured by the faith, not doubting that you have been deemed worthy of the body and blood of Christ...[Since you are] fully convinced that the apparent bread is not bread, even though it is sensible to the taste, but the body of Christ, and that the apparent wine is not wine, even though the taste would have it so,...partake of that bread as something spiritual, and put a cheerful face on your soul" (Catechetical Discourses; Mystagogic 4, 22:9 [A.D. 350]).
Theodore of Mopsuestia
"When [Christ] gave the bread he did not say, 'This is the symbol of my body,' but, 'This is my body.' In the same way, when he gave the cup of his blood he did not say, '‘This is the symbol of my blood,' but, 'This is my blood'; for he wanted us to look upon the [Eucharistic elements] after their reception of grace and the coming of the Holy Spirit not according to their nature, but receive them as they are, the body and blood of our Lord. We ought...not regard [the elements] merely as bread and cup, but as the body and blood of the Lord, into which they were transformed by the descent of the Holy Spirit" (Catechetical Homilies 5:1 [A.D. 428]).
Highway54
Member
See how easy it is to be deceived through inconsistent translations of words sir?
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