Do Preterists Believe In The Rapture?

[nonbelieverforums]

In my on going studies I would like to enclose the following article for discussion in the forums.


http://www.thebereancall.org/node/5212


Do Preterists Believe In The Rapture?


Gary:

You are listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still to come, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation, please stay tuned.

CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH

In this regular feature Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here is this week’s question: Dear Dave and Tom, I’m starting to get concerned about a drift I see among conservative evangelicals. From time to time I listen to R. C. Sproul and Hank Hannegraf, and read Jay Adams and only recently discovered that they are preterists, that they believe most of the prophecies of the Bible were completed in the first century AD. Two questions: Where does a preterist put the Rapture of the church, and how concerned should I be about the rest of their theology?

Tom:

Dave, Hank, a couple of years ago wrote a book which was really a response to Tim LaHaye’s series on the Rapture, but more and more he’s identifying himself as a preterist, meaning that most of the prophecies of the Bible have already been completed, but he calls himself a partial preterist, and I think R. C. Sproul does the same, partial meaning that they would say that many of the prophecies were completed in 70AD, but there are some, the big three they call them, that would be the Second Coming, the Resurrection and the Judgment that’s yet to come, that would be a partial preterit’s view, although there are many ideas within preterism, partial preterism and so on.

Dave:

Well, Tom, can I go back a little farther than that. R. C. Sproul, D. James Kennedy, these people, and I presume that Hankâ€â€sounds to me like he’s in the same camp now, they believe in Replacement Theology. They believe that the church has replaced Israel, and they put out a statement a few years ago that all the promises to Israel were fulfilled in the time of Joshua. Now Joshua lived 110 years, these are everlasting promises, this is an everlasting covenant, everlasting possession of this land. And we would only have to go to, I mean, there are hundreds of prophecies promising Israel be restored. Jeremiah 31, beginning at verse 35: You think Israel will cease to exist? If you can pull the sun out of the sky and knock the stars out, then Israel will cease from being a nation. But if you can’t do that Israel will never cease from being a nation. I don’t think these people have been able to do that. But anyway, if we just went to Jeremiah 23:7, for example, we probably quoted this before, but people seem to forget these things. It’s very clear: Thus saith the Lord, the day is coming when they will no longer say, you know, speak as though this is a great event, Blessed be the Lord who brought His people Israel out of the land of Egypt. But they will say, Blessed be the Lord who brought His people back from all the nations whither He had scattered them! Okay. They weren’t even scattered in the days of Joshua. They were not brought back from anything except Egypt. Now you cannot stick that in there and, Tom, I will just be blunt and say, In my opinion, these men are defying God, they are defying what He has said. Why they do that I don’t know, but this is the theology of course, this is Calvinism.

Tom:

Although we have to make a qualification here, and Hank is definitely not a Calvinist.

Dave:

Right, right, yeah, but nevertheless this is where it really comes from. The Presbyterian church has generally believed this is Reformed Theology. And how you could possibly say this when you have these promises over and over and over of the restoration of Israel and then try to make that all apply to the church! The church doesn’t even have a land, we were never cast out of the land, we were never brought back into the land. Tom, I don’t know how they can make this fit.

Tom:

Well, Dave, what about the Rapture of the church? Now, a full preterist doesn’t believe in the Rapture, most of them, some believe that the Rapture took place 70 AD, right around that time. Now, I don’t know where the partial preterists put this, and I don’t even know what the point of it would be under a preterist perspective.

Dave:

Tom, again, you can’t escape the language of the Bible. Jesus, at the Last Supper, John 14, said: I’m going to go away, prepare a place for you, and if I go away I will come again and receive you unto myself, that where I amâ€â€where’s He going to be? In His Father’s houseâ€â€there you may be also. And Paul is explaining this in 1 Thessalonians Chapter 4, when he said: “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.†Sounds to me like that was what Jesus was talking about. You cannot escape it, that His own people, His bride, will be caught up. Furthermore, there is the judgment seat of Christ we have to face, and then there is a wedding in heaven, that’s exciting, a wedding in heaven in Revelation 19, and this is while all of this horrible stuff is going on down here on this earth. Now His bride must have gotten up there somehow. I don’t think she got up there in space ships, or whatever. This is the Rapture again, this is why the Rapture, and His bride returns with Him as part of the armies of heaven to rescue Israel at Armageddon. Tom, but with the preterist it just kind of all winds up and Jesus comes back, the second coming, and now He takes over on this worldâ€â€

Tom:

Well, that’s for a partial preterist, Dave, but for a full preterist they are saying the Rapture took place around 70 AD. Hey, what happened to John? I guess John must have just finished the Book of Revelation before he was snatched up or something.

Dave:

Well, actually it dates around 96 AD.

Tom:

I know. Dave, here’s a quote from a leading preterist: He says the preterist’s position is a rational and probably explanation of eschatology. First, one keeps from becoming lackadaisical in our evangelism. Check that from somebody who takes a reformed position, and child rearing because it keeps us from anticipating rapture. Dave, I thought that was our blessed hope, I thought it was to purify our lives in expectation of the imminent return of Christ.

Dave:

Tom, let me make it very blunt. They claim that Jesus Christ returned in fulfillment of His promise to come back to take us to heaven, He returned in the person of the Roman armies to destroy Jerusalem and to excommunicate Israel, and Israel is finished. Now if that is not wicked, and if that is not twisting the scriptures I don’t know what is.

Tom:

Well, it’s the antithesis, He comes back to rescue Israel. I mean, you don’t have to be a theologian, a scholar, this is just simple stuff from the Bible.

 

[Matthew24:34]

He never learns! Again, didn't read it! Have any original thoughts, NBF?

Matthew24:34

 

[Vic C.]

He never learns! Again, didn't read it! Have any original thoughts, NBF?

Matthew24:34

Why don't you do this; choose a particular point in the article and discuss, debate, whatever you want to do. Wouldn't that be less stressful on all of us? Our rules don't prohibit copy/paste jobs, though we do ask that people refrain from the practice for obvious reasons.

 

[Drew]

Where does a preterist put the Rapture of the church, and how concerned should I be about the rest of their theology?

I do not believe that the Scriptures teach of a rapture, at least not one where believers are snatched up into heaven. So my answer, from the partial preterist perspective, is that there is no rapture at all.

Now Joshua lived 110 years, these are everlasting promises, this is an everlasting covenant, everlasting possession of this land.

You are goin to need to defend this statement that any everlasting promises were made to the nation of Israel. Just so you can anticipate - I am aware that there are texts that seem to suggest this. But, as I will argue, this is only an appearance. If we are going to take Paul seriously, we cannot have an eternal promise of Palestine to ethnic Jews.

And we would only have to go to, I mean, there are hundreds of prophecies promising Israel be restored. Jeremiah 31, beginning at verse 35: You think Israel will cease to exist?

Paul clearly has two "Israels" in his mental concept set. Again, if we look at the entire corpus of Scripure, we will see that all promises to the nation of Israel - ethnic Israel - were fulfilled at the cross.

As of the cross, there is no sense in which anything is distinctly promised to the Jew.

 

[Drew]

And Paul is explaining this in 1 Thessalonians Chapter 4, when he said: “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.†Sounds to me like that was what Jesus was talking about. You cannot escape it, that His own people, His bride, will be caught up.

You can indeed escape this conclusion if you know your Old Testament. Paul is employing a complex metaphor - he is not intending his readers to think in term of believers being literally snatched up into heaven.

Sorry for the length of what follows:

The scriptures do not teach that there will be any kind of rapture. I know this is going to come across as patronizing, but the reason that the rapture idea has any leverage is that people are not as knowledgeable of their Bibles as they need to be to understand the 1 Thess 4 text.

The Second Coming is real – Jesus will indeed come back and take His place in God’s renewed creation. But there will be no rapture. To understand the true Biblical picture, one must have the correct model for how reality is constituted. Heaven is not “up there somewhere†– it is not a “place†in what we see around us as physical reality. Therefore, there is no sense at all to a picture where people are “snatched up†to go off to heaven. That image appeals to an entirely incorrect way about thinking about “where†Heaven is.

Paul’s description of Jesus’ reappearance in 1 Thessalonians 4 is a metaphorical rendering of what he says in two other passages: 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and Phillipians 3:20-21. Here is the 1 Corinthians passage:

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

Now here is the 1 Thessalonians 4 passage:

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever

Clearly the the same scenario is being described in both texts – unless the dead in Christ will be raised twice. Note the structural parallels

1. Both accounts have a trumpet sounding.

2. Both accounts have the dead being raised.

3. The 1 Corinthians account has those alive at the time being transformed, while the 1 Thess account has them snatched up in the air.

I suggest that it is clear that only one thing can be happening to those who are alive at the time of Jesus’ return. And I suggest that the 1 Corinthians texts is a literal description – those alive are transformed, while the 1 Thess text is really saying the same thing, but in a highly metaphorical fashion. So no one is really being snatched away.

Note how the Phillipians text endorses the 1 Corinthians text in respect to what actually happens to those alive at the time of Jesus’ return – they are transformed, not snatched away:

20But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body

Both the 1 Corinthians and the Phillipians texts are asserting that those who are alive at Jesus’ appearing will be changed or transformed so that their mortal bodies will become incorruptible, deathless. This is all that Paul intends to say in Thessalonians, but he uses poetic imagery, from biblical and political sources, to enhance his message. Little did he know how his rich metaphors would be misunderstood two millennia later.

First, Paul echoes the story of Moses coming down the mountain (echoed in the 1 Thess text by “himself will come down from heavenâ€Â) with the Torah. The trumpet sounds (just as in the 1 Thess text), a loud voice is heard (echoed by the voice of the archangel in the 1 Thess text), and after a long wait, Moses comes to see what’s been going on in his absence (echoing, of course, Jesus’ return to Earth in 1 Thess 4 after a long absence).

Second, he echoes Daniel 7, in which “the people of the saints of the Most High†are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up to sit with God in glory. Of course, in the New Testament version, this vindication is the resurrection of the dead and the transformation of the living.

Third, Paul conjures up images of an emperor visiting a colony or province. The citizens go out to meet him in open country and then escort him into the city – that is how you greeted an emperor in the culture in which Paul is writing. Paul’s image of the people “meeting the Lord in the air†should be read with the assumption that the people will immediately turn around and lead the Lord back to the newly remade world.

I am not making this stuff up. The allusions are clear and scriptural. Paul knows his Bible and is drawing on these images to construct an exceedingly rich metaphor for the transformation of the living at Jesus’ return.

Paul’s mixed metaphors of trumpets blowing and the living being snatched into heaven to meet the Lord are not to be understood as literal truth, but as a vivid and biblically allusive description of the great transformation of the present world of which he speaks elsewhere.

 

[Matthew24:34]

Drew is responding to the words of Dave Hunt and T. J. McMahon. None of these arguments came directly from nbf. In my opinion it is a waste of time to deal with him. Drew did a lot of work in response to something nbf simply copied and pasted!

Matthew24:34

 

[nonbelieverforums]

Drew is responding to the words of Dave Hunt and T. J. McMahon. None of these arguments came directly from nbf. In my opinion it is a waste of time to deal with him. Drew did a lot of work in response to something nbf simply copied and pasted!

Matthew24:34

Matthew your concerns were ruled by the forum moderators yesterday. I can post articles for discussion and you are welcome not to respond
This particular article was forwarded to me by my pastor who I have been discussing your view with him and seeking guidance.

I told him I would post it here and let you all chew at it.

I have read drews responses with thought and thanks. I may have some questions later this weekend and so may my pastor.
You are free not to participate and ignore. you need not repeat youself over and over just move on mate.But I will continue to post in the manner I feel like. Like modern day reality your going to have to deal with it or ignore it.

 

[Vic C.]

Drew is responding to the words of Dave Hunt and T. J. McMahon. None of these arguments came directly from nbf. In my opinion it is a waste of time to deal with him. Drew did a lot of work in response to something nbf simply copied and pasted!

Matthew24:34

I'm sure Drew knows to whom he is answering. Drew has admitted that while long copy/pastes are tedious at times, he admits they are supported by the poster are are worthy of discussion/debate. Of course, at this time, Hunt and McMahon cannot respond, so it now becomes the burden of NBF to respond.

 

[researcher]

<--- Partial Preterist.

Well, the "rapture" is something. Literal or figurative I believe it already happened.

Drew brought up an interesting point about it not being literal. I would argue counterpoint.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Paul told the Corinthians that they (Christians) would not all die before Jesus showed up.

Those who didn't die, but were alive at this event would be "changed," and "caught up (1Th 4:17)" If being "caught up" is metaphorical, is the part of the dead being caught up metaphorical also? The dead will come alive at the second coming, then, those alive and those who just came back from the dead would be caught up into the clouds together.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If the actual dead, actually come back to life, then, literally are caught up to "the clouds", then, I don't see why those alive at that time wouldn't also be caught up to the clouds either.

Jesus also said there would be people taken in that day (Mat 24:40 & 41), and that it would be angels gathering them. It would be like when the Holy Spirit took Philip and transported him to another city (Act 8:39 & 40), or Ezekiel being caught up (Eze 3:12-15) except this would be a permanent transportation. Imo.

 

[Vic C.]

What happens to believers, dead and alive, post 70 AD?

 

[nonbelieverforums]

I don't understand what all the fuss is.. Go to other sites with forums. Memebers are posting blogs, articles, videos and leaving them open for discussion. Seems silly trying to silence me or anything that has to do with a cut and paste. They are not directed just to you Mathew they are directed for everyone.

I am posting interesting content and in some cases my topics have had as many as 200 posts so they are of important issues.

About a month ago I didn't even know what a Preterists was, the very fact I posted the article means I obviously read it, so now I want to put the issue of preterists and the rapture up for discussion. I want boths sides to look at it. This is the method I have chosen. I would love to know what others think instead of matthew and parousa all the time but I am of course interested in what they say as well. So what if I don't agree.

I am a futurist (by your account) go to other futurist sites,the home pages are usually nothing but posted media articles in the current day and how they relate to scripture. They let the current day event speak for itself with the verse. So what?

There is method to my madness. This is the reason for this post.

My pastor of my chruch was asking how my site and my ministry was doing. I was telling him about how I am preparing and educating myself of the preterist view so I can prepare myself with scripture for any person who may wish to challenge my view. That's why I stay in the ring and take abuse all by myself I might add. I am the only one who stands up to these lads.

I said to him I don't understand this view it's such a sad view., no rapture, no guidance for the future, they really seem like they are not interested in even preaching the gospel, they don't even care about modern day event's at all.

I had an debate with parousa of which was the more popular view, futurist or preterists. It turns out he may very well be right and I was wrong. The article was given to me by my pastor with some thoughts below.

I posted the article to show a few peopple at my church how you will all discet it to death.

Here was a nice quote I got from someone at my church who was in the office as I was complaining to my pastor ,, yep sorry another cut and paste from an email however.


Since this preterist view is becoming more and more prevalent, I would say that it's the enemy's way of lulling us (the Body of Christ) to sleep. Those who believe that Jesus is coming soon, and that the end times are upon us, are more alive and active in their faith than those who think it's all already happened! They are like the ones Peter talks about in 2 Peter 3:3...

...knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation....

...but, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,[a] not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

So I am not just being ignorant.. I do listen however I may not agree with all things, thats what debate is all about.

Because someone sent me this I am more charged then ever to keep doing what I'm doing.

Vic might I suggest the site be changed to preteristforums.com or something if you are not going to allow forum content to run freely like any other forum. Mathew doesn't make the rules he can just choose to ignore if he has his own way of doing things.

I mean him no disrespect.

 

[Vic C.]

Ok, lets drop the discussions about copy/pastes (and it's copy, not "cut", you're not cutting anything from anywhere). Lets stick to who does and does believe in a literal rapture.

Vic might I suggest the site be changed to preteristforums.com or something if you are not going to allow for the forums to run in a normal fashion.

I resent that!!! This is NOT a Preterist site. There is NO need to change the name. All who come here are allowed their opinions. I in no way, have asked you to stop posting your copy/pastes, have I?

 

[Vic C.]

Ah, I see you reviewed you post and thought about what you said and edited the last part. Might I suggest you preview before you submit it? :gah

 

[nonbelieverforums]

Fine thank you Vic.. no worries.

 

[researcher]

What happens to believers, dead and alive, post 70 AD?

I dunno. I would guess they are judged like everyone else.

Rom 14:10

Maybe 70AD was a Jewish thing

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince who standeth for the children of thy people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

It says Daniel's people will/would be delivered and come back from the dead. Apparently no one else was involved. If that is in fact the case. Dunno. :\

 

[Drew]

<--- Partial Preterist.

Well, the "rapture" is something. Literal or figurative I believe it already happened.

Drew brought up an interesting point about it not being literal. I would argue counterpoint.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Paul told the Corinthians that they (Christians) would not all die before Jesus showed up.

I do not agree that Paul is saying this. And I do not believe I ever said the ratpure was not "literal" - I said it was not literally a "catching up of people in the air". As I hoped was clear, I am arguing that the real event to which the "catching up in the air" language corresponds is the transformation of the living at a future return of Christ. I can understand that you may think the "we" must denote Paul's contempories. Fair enough - normally the term "we" would suggest a set of people contemporaneous with the one making the statement. But Paul has a track record of breaking that convention - he does it in Romans 7 where he uses the "I" term to denote the nation of Israel. So things are not so simple.

 

[Drew]

<--- Those who didn't die, but were alive at this event would be "changed," and "caught up (1Th 4:17)" If being "caught up" is metaphorical, is the part of the dead being caught up metaphorical also? The dead will come alive at the second coming, then, those alive and those who just came back from the dead would be caught up into the clouds together.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If the actual dead, actually come back to life, then, literally are caught up to "the clouds", then, I don't see why those alive at that time wouldn't also be caught up to the clouds either.

For my part, I am saying that nobody is being "caught up in the air" in a literal sense.

Jesus also said there would be people taken in that day (Mat 24:40 & 41), and that it would be angels gathering them. It would be like when the Holy Spirit took Philip and transported him to another city (Act 8:39 & 40), or Ezekiel being caught up (Eze 3:12-15) except this would be a permanent transportation. Imo.

I think that the Matthew 24 reference to being "taken" is a reference to the events of 70 AD. Jesus is referring to some being "taken in judgement" as the Romans destroy Jeruslaem. It is not a reference to a future event whereby some are snatched from the earth.

 

[whirlwind]

<--- Those who didn't die, but were alive at this event would be "changed," and "caught up (1Th 4:17)" If being "caught up" is metaphorical, is the part of the dead being caught up metaphorical also? The dead will come alive at the second coming, then, those alive and those who just came back from the dead would be caught up into the clouds together.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If the actual dead, actually come back to life, then, literally are caught up to "the clouds", then, I don't see why those alive at that time wouldn't also be caught up to the clouds either.

For my part, I am saying that nobody is being "caught up in the air" in a literal sense.

I agree. Air, as used in that scripture is your breath, the breath of life....your spirit. It means we are caught up in our spirits...with Him. It doesn't mean in the atmosphere. It is the change...in the twinkling of an eye. As far as the "cloud" it is simply an expression Paul used,as in clouds of locusts, clouds of witnesses, etc. Again, not the atmosphere.

 

[researcher]

<--- Partial Preterist.

Well, the "rapture" is something. Literal or figurative I believe it already happened.

Drew brought up an interesting point about it not being literal. I would argue counterpoint.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Paul told the Corinthians that they (Christians) would not all die before Jesus showed up.

I do not agree that Paul is saying this. And I do not believe I ever said the ratpure was not "literal" - I said it was not literally a "catching up of people in the air". As I hoped was clear, I am arguing that the real event to which the "catching up in the air" language corresponds is the transformation of the living at a future return of Christ. I can understand that you may think the "we" must denote Paul's contempories. Fair enough - normally the term "we" would suggest a set of people contemporaneous with the one making the statement. But Paul has a track record of breaking that convention - he does it in Romans 7 where he uses the "I" term to denote the nation of Israel. So things are not so simple.

I'm ok with it. ;) Whatever it was, I think it happened already. ;)

 

[parousia70]

I had an debate with parousa of which was the more popular view, futurist or preterists. It turns out he may very well be right and I was wrong.

And in that debate you argued that whichever view had the majority of Christian adherents was the more legitimate view.

Are you now going to covert to the more legitimate majority view (now that you know yours is the minority) or are you going to be a hypocrite and abandon your previous argument??