Bible Study Do we love the truth!

[Tenchi]

Don't you know who that is speaking of?
Did you know that John was very concerned about gnostics entering into the church?
It's talking about gnostics that did not agree with church teachings.

1 John 2:18-22
18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge.
21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.

Please show me from John's actual words here where he uses the word "gnostic," or refers directly to "gnostics," or defines the tenets of gnosticism against which he was supposedly writing. I know that what we think of today as Gnosticism was only just starting to fully coalesce into its current form when John wrote this letter, so he likely wouldn't have used such a term, but even still, he says nothing of a demiurge, or of secret, mystical knowledge, or of the gnostic flesh-spirit dualism, etc.

Even if John was in an obscure way addressing gnosticism in his letter, this idea doesn't prohibit the way in which I've understood his words in 1 John 2:19. Would not gnostics, by virtue of their heretical beliefs, be among those not truly of the faith who reveal this in their departure from the Church? Yes. What difference, then, does adopting your gnostic theory concerning John's letter make to the way I've interpreted his words? None that I can see...

Where does it say that?
You keep saying things that are not in the NT.

??? 1 John 2:19.

Hebrews 6:4-8 does also, I think, though not as explicitly as John's words.

Explain this:

2 Peter 2:20-22
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

What do you want explained? If one reads the entire chapter, one does not encounter a description of a Christ-follower, a born-again person. Instead, Peter had the false prophet/teacher in view:

2 Peter 2:1-3
1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.
3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

I don't recognize a born-again person in these verses. Do you? So, then, when I arrive at the end of the chapter (throughout which Peter has only described very un-Christian behavior) and read the passage you've cited above, I don't take Peter to suddenly be speaking of a genuine child of God. This would, it seems to me, to be a very bizarre interpretation to adopt.

So, then, how have these "false teachers" who've carried on in the dreadful way Peter described "escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord"? Well, I'd draw your attention to the word "if" that begins Peter's remarks in verse 21. If it were the case that such wicked people had escaped the defilements of the world, then they would be the "pigs" and "dogs" Peter described. Is there anything in what Peter described of the false teachers throughout the chapter to warrant the belief that they had made such an escape? I don't think so. Instead, I take Peter to be theorizing here at the end of his comments about false teachers, emphasizing how much more awful it would be IF they had done all the dreadful things they'd done as actual born-again believers. Of course, such a thing isn't possible, for reasons I've already spent time explaining from God's word.

And what experience would that be?
Let God be the judge of what's going on in a person's heart.

2 Corinthians 13:5
5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?

If there's an objective, authoritative standard by which to assess ourselves and see whether or not we are in the faith, which is what the above clearly implies, then we can apply that standard to others as well as to ourselves. In fact, Paul indicates this is so in the very next verse:

2 Corinthians 13:6
6 But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.

If it's not possible to see if another person "fails the test" of being in the faith, why does Paul write this? It seems to me very obvious that they could use the same standard by which they could assess themselves also to assess him. And in doing so, Paul trusted that they would see that he "passed the test."

What is the standard? The evidence of the life and work of the Holy Spirit: conviction of sin, illumination of God's Truth, strengthening in times of trial and temptation, comfort in seasons of trouble and grief, progressive transformation of the inner man, etc. These are all of the concrete ways in which the Spirit "bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God" (Romans 8:16) and we can be certain we are truly born-again by the Spirit (John 3:3-7, Titus 3:5, Romans 8:9-12)

Continued below.

 

[Tenchi]

So the Prodigal son was never lost?

What do you mean by "lost"? Spiritually lost? No. In the parable, all that was lost in the Prodigal's waywardness was his fellowship with his father. At no point in the story is his relationship to his father as a son ever said to be dissolved. This is why the son says in the pigpen, "I will go to my father," and why the father is looking for his son's return and runs out to meet his son when he sees him approaching.

So what does AGAIN mean in the following verse?

Luke 15:24
For this son of mine was dead, and has come to life AGAIN...
he was lost and has been found.

Luke 15:24
24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.
Clearly, in light of the fact that his son was standing before him, the father did not mean his son had literally died. And just to make this clear, he immediately rephrases and says, "he was lost and has been found." In saying, "has come to life again" the father is obviously speaking figuratively, metaphorically, of his son's complete absence which, in effect, was exactly as if his son had died. This description of the effect of his son's absence speaks to a loss, not of life, but of the father's fellowship with his boy.

The son was saved
The son became lost
The son was saved AGAIN.

If this is not what it means, please explain what you believe it means.

"Saved" is never used by Christ in his parable about the Prodigal Son. In answer to the rest of what you wrote here see above.

Oh for goodness sake Tenchi.
So you think YOU understand the sin nature of man....
BUT JESUS DID NOT!

So we better start being perfect just as Jesus said I guess.

??? I'm not following you here at all. You're going to have to explain how you've come to these statements from what I wrote because I don't see anything in what I pointed out about Matthew 5:48 that warrants your remarks here.

No other comment on the above.
Enough meat on the table.

Sorry to be blunt, but this comes off as a rather convenient deflection of an important point.

Jesus was perfect FOR US?
Again,,,,please point me to this verse.

You don't think Jesus had to be a perfect sacrifice in order to atone for the sins of mankind? Read Hebrews 9-10:20. See also 2 Corinthians 5:21.

Jesus was perfect because God rquired a perfect lamb without blemish just like in Exodus.
A man could not be the propitiation for the sin of the world.
Because A MAN CAUSED the sin of the world.
It took someone PERFECT.
The ONLY perfect person.
And if I know this....I do believe Jesus knew this when He said we must be perfect.

Did those to whom Jesus was speaking understand any of this? No. Did Jesus explain any of this to them? No. Why did he say what he did in Matthew 5:48, then? It seems very evident to me that he was establishing an impossible standard for his Jewish audience who were thoroughly inculcated in the Old Covenant system of animal sacrifice for sin. He was making them "hungry" for the "new and living way" to interact with God that he would consecrate through the sacrifice of himself on the cross. Again, see Hebrews 9-10:20. But the impossible standard issued to Christ's first-century Jewish audience has not changed. We all of us must meet God's standard of perfection and none of us can. So, then, what of those who think they can contribute their inevitably imperfect efforts to those of Christ and obtain their salvation thereby? Nothing less than perfection will do, which is why our own good works can never prompt God to accept us as His own.

I'm sure you know what the word perfect means,,,,but it doesn't suit your doctrine.

I don't think you yet understand my doctrine.

Faith doesn't save?
The NT is full of conflict.

See my last post to you.

 

[Tenchi]

I'm not either.
I asked you to clarify.
Are you speaking in general,,,,about Jesus?

You wrote:

So if God makes a statement, it's not truth??

Nothing I've written leads to such a conclusion. Particularly in regards to the personal Source of all Truth, who is Christ, and the propositional truth statements he issues, it seems very obvious to me that they aren't, and can't be, identical. How this observation, then, warrants your question above I don't know.

And no. You didn't explain anything.
You're just giving me your ideas.
Your personal ideas don't mean too much to me.

No, everything for which I've contended is well-grounded in God's word. And I'm not sure why it should matter that my ideas don't mean much to you. Their truth content doesn't rely on whether or not they hold value for you.

I'm asking you WHERE in the NT does it state that Jesus did it all and we are to do nothing in regard to our salvation.

We must believe, of course, in the perfect atoning work of Christ on our behalf, but this belief itself doesn't save us. It is, as I've said, the object of our faith - Jesus Christ - who saves us.

Acts 4:12
12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

John 14:6
6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

John 10:9
9 "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

Our being saved is accomplished by the Holy Spirit coming to dwell within us, the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9), who manifests his life and work in us, spiritually-regenerating us and making us more and more like Christ.

Titus 3:4-5
4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Romans 8:9-11
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

I note all this to explain that the Christian life is a work of God from beginning to end. God is our Savior and He is our Sustainer, bringing us into His family and kingdom by His redeeming work, adopting us as His own, and giving us new spiritual life in the Person of the Holy Spirit, without whom no one is "born-again."

John 3:5-8
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

My "role" in my life as a Christian is that of receiver and transmitter. I work out in my life as a Christian only what God has first worked into me (by His Spirit).

Philippians 2:12-13
12 ...work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

This dynamic is the case as I approach Christ for salvation and continues until I die and go to be with Christ in eternity. God works into me all that I am to be as His child and then I work it out, I manifest what He has done in me, in the character of my conduct. So, then, I don't do anything but receive the saving and transforming work of God and then transmit what He's done in my inner man in the outward content of my daily living.

1 Corinthians 1:7-9
7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
8 who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Philippians 1:6
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

1 Peter 5:10-11
10 ...the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.
11 To Him be dominion forever and ever. Amen.

And so on.

Can you see now at least some part of why I don't subscribe to the idea that I can earn my salvation, or contribute to it, or maintain it? Without Christ, without the Spirit of Christ within me, I really can do nothing (John 15:5). I come to God terribly weak and sin-stained, a rebel toward Him utterly without the ability to save myself. I can, then, only receive from Him my salvation, by faith trusting in the atoning, cleansing, redeeming work of Christ for me on the cross.

Romans 5:6-11
6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Where is my role as an active contributor to my salvation in what Paul wrote here? He begins the passage by pointing out that all those who come to Christ for salvation do so in a state of helplessness (vs. 6). But not only are we helpless, we are also, Paul explains in the passage, sinners and enemies toward God (vs. 8, 10). And so, our reconciliation to God has to be accomplished solely by the Savior, as Paul described above. We are justified by Christ's shed blood, reconciled to God by Christ's death and resurrection, to which we as helpless sinners can add nothing. All we can do is receive, by faith, what Christ has done for us.

John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Watch and pray to avoid temptation to sin? Why

I thought you were saved and have eternal security?

Thks

This perfectly illustrates our different approaches. You take a saying like "watch and pray" and turn it into a requirement for salvation. I take the same saying for what it is... a call to be alert spiritually in times of trial and upheaval. Jesus used the term twice as far as we know... In one instance it was directed to Peter for falling asleep in the Garden of Gethsemane when Jesus asked him to pray (Matt 26:41, Mark 14:38). The other instance was in relation to reading the signs that will indicate the great tribulation and the second coming of Christ is near (Mark 13:36, Luke 21:36).

 

[donadams]

This perfectly illustrates our different approaches. You take a saying like "watch and pray" and turn it into a requirement for salvation. I take the same saying for what it is... a call to be alert spiritually in times of trial and upheaval. Jesus used the term twice as far as we know... In one instance it was directed to Peter for falling asleep in the Garden of Gethsemane when Jesus asked him to pray (Matt 26:41, Mark 14:38). The other instance was in relation to reading the signs that will indicate the great tribulation and the second coming of Christ is near (Mark 13:36, Luke 21:36).

Temptation and sin are not salvation issues??? Really

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Good morning NLIC,

Good morning, and good questions. I have answers and a question. The question is first...

If, as correctly stated, the new man is sinless and incorruptible,

If you agree that the new man is sinless and incorruptible, why would you conclude that he can sin or be corrupted by sin?

why wouldn't his skin and bones also be new, and at least sinless ?
New creatures don't carry any parts of the old creature.
2 Cor5:17 says as much..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Jesus explained that the differences between the flesh and the spirit can be traced to their origins. He said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (Jn 3:6) What we received from our parents through physical birth is "flesh". But what we received from God through Spiritual birth is spirit. I know there may be a ton of dogma that may keep you from seeing this difference, but it is the answer to your question.

Besides, what sin can your skin and bones commit ?
The mind is the source of sin.

Actually, the heart is the source of sin...

16 So Jesus said, “Are you also still without understanding? 17 Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. 20 These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.” (Mt 15:16–20)​

There are many Scriptures that describe the flesh/spirit model of Christianity. Perhaps the most poingnant one is Galatians 5:16-18...

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. (Ga 5:16–18)​

What the flesh wants and what the Spirit wants are in adversarial opposition. They each want their own desires to be fulfilled. And the only way for a person to deny their flesh what it wants is to "Walk in the Spirit".

And to top all this off, we do have the sure hope that one day we will be completely free of the corruption of the flesh and will have bodies that are as incorruptible as our spirits are now...

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (1 Co 15:42–44)​

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Temptation and sin are not salvation issues??? Really

Yes they are salvation issues. That's why we all need Jesus. But when Jesus saves us, He saves us from the condemnation that we deserve because of our sins. In other words, He rescued us from the damnation that sin earns us. And not only that, but He created in us a new hearts in which righteousness dwells that the devil can't take away by trickery or deceit. And when we exit this life, we will be like Him and see Him as He is.

Everyone who is now saved (including you, if you are saved, in spite of denying that you are saved and claiming that you are working toward it) once lived only in the flesh. When we were in the flesh, the sinful desires of the flesh "were aroused by the law", "were at work in our members", and brought "fruit to death". But now that we are saved, having been "delivered from the law", we "have become dead to the law", and we are dead "to what we were held by" so that we may serve Him "in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter."

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. (Ro 7:4–6)​

The law does not have the same effect on saved people and lost people. To the lost, the law engenders fear of eternal damnation, and it's purpose is to drive them to Christ for forgiveness (verses and explanation available upon request). But the saved react to the law with gratitude that all the condemnation due to them because of their sins were wiped away at the cross of Christ. As a result, they can serve Him in the newness of the life they have in Christ, knowing that there is no condemnation to them.

 

[Tenchi]

I don't come here to play verse ping pong.

??? I'm not playing "verse ping-pong."

You sound like maybe you're having a bad day...

John 6:29 means faith is a work?

It is a work, not of the external sort, seen by others, manifested in behavior, but a believing "posture" of mind and heart toward Christ as Savior and Lord.

So are you going to explain Ephesians 2:8?

Ephesians 2:4-10
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

I'm not sure what you want explained, exactly, but here's verse 8 in its immediate context. In verse 4, Paul emphasized God and His rich mercy and love as the cause of His making us "alive together with Christ." In particular, Paul emphasized that it was by God's grace that his readers had been saved. He goes on to explain that God had raised up Paul and his born-again readers with Christ and seated them with him in "heavenly places." From verse 4 to verse 7, Paul writes only of what God does to those He saves; Paul says nothing about the one being saved adding to God's work their own effort.

So, then, when I come to verse 8, it seems very obvious to me that Paul is saying that what he has already said, which is that God's grace extended to lost sinners in Christ Jesus is what saves them. They have only to believe this is so, and, by faith, receive the gift of salvation, who is the Savior. And lest anyone should think to make themselves a co-Savior with Jesus, earning their salvation by way of a righteous life, Paul explicitly rules out this thinking (vs. 9). This makes very good sense, particularly in light of the condition in which every person is saved:

Ephesians 2:1-3
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

In such a condition, what has the lost person to offer to their salvation? Nothing. As the hymnist wrote,

"Nothing in my hands I bring,
Only to thy cross I cling."

And John 6:29.....you've never pondered what that means since it cannot POSSIBLY mean what you believe because, as I've stated, you're creating another conflict.

I've pondered it very well. See above.

No.
What does Romans 10:9-10 state exactly?
You don't fix your car by believng your mechanic
And you don't get saved by believing Jesus....

You have to allow that belief to have action.
No action
No faith

Faith creates action.

Well, as I pointed out to another poster in this thread, not all sincere, full faith can be expressed in action. I gave the example of being attacked suddenly by a dog. As it is rushing at me, snarling, I am fully convinced that it will bite me, but the corresponding action of climbing something to get out of reach of the dog has no time to be enacted. Does this mean I didn't really, truly believe the dog would bite me? No, of course not. So, then, the action a genuine, full faith may engender is not essential to that faith being genuine and full. I can really, truly believe something without acting upon that belief in some concrete external way.

And thank God this is so, for if it wasn't, the child on his deathbed, unable to do anything because of the weakness and pain of his fatal cancer, can still be saved. Though he can only call upon the name of the Lord within his heart where no one but God can see or hear him, if by faith he does so, confessing his faith in Christ, he will be saved.

Romans 10:11-13
11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

1 Samuel 16:7
7 ...for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

1 John 5:10-13
10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.
11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

So, then, a faith in Christ that "activates" his salvation of a person does not have to have any external, concrete expression.

Here's another verse:

John 5:28
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Does the above state you must DO SOMETHING in order to be saved?

No, actually, the verse doesn't say any such thing. It says only that those who did good deeds would come forth unto a resurrection of life. Such deeds would be typical of a born-again person; one would expect that a person in whom the Spirit of Christ was truly dwelling, who was actually saved, would be living in manifestation of this fact, part of which manifestation is, of course, an increasing holy life. So, then, good deeds aren't said by Christ in the verse above to be the means of the "resurrection of life" but merely a characteristic typical of the born-again person who, because of Christ, obtains this sort of resurrection.

Does Matthew 7:21 say you must DO SOMETHING in order to be saved?


21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.



Does Matthew 7:24 say we must DO SOMETHING?

What is the will of the Father in heaven? As the story of Matthew 7:21-23 illustrates, it isn't good works. Those trying to make a case for their entrance into heaven pointed to their good deeds but, good though those deeds were - though they were done in his name, no less - Jesus still said to them, "I never knew you." Why? Well, if I was going to make a case for why I should enter heaven on the basis of my obedience to God's will, I would start with the command God has said is His First and Great one, which is to love Him with all my being (Matthew 22:36-38). But this isn't what those in the story do. They point to external actions, not the condition of their heart toward God.

It is our inner person with which God is first and foremost concerned, however. As the Pharisees amply demonstrated, one can be professionally obedient to God and yet be in profound disobedience to Him if one's heart is far from Him, as the hearts of the Pharisees were.

Matthew 15:7-8
7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:
8 “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;

In Matthew 7:21-23, then, Jesus isn't teaching that one must "DO SOMETHING" as you've suggested, but BE SOMEONE - a lover of God - in proper fulfillment of His will. When one is the person God wants one to be within, THEN, the external obedience that results is acceptable to God. But under no other condition is this so.

1 Corinthians 13:1-3
1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Does Matthew 7:24 say we must DO SOMETHING?

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

But this verse doesn't say that acting on the words of Christ saves a person. He only says that doing so makes them wise.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Absolutely.

It is clear that you "see the point", so what is so strange about it ?
In light of the OP, and love of the truth, lets look at John 8:32-34...
Jesus speaking to the Jews..."And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
If we commit sin, we are not free from servitude to sin.
Jesus says, in Matt 6:24..."No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other..."
So, Jesus says those serving/committing sin hate God.

Do you love the truth enough to quit sinning ?
A real, true, permanent, repentance from sin, will accommodate that.

As I said, sinless perfection exists in the new man, corruption exists in the flesh.

Sinless perfection for humans comes only after death when their flesh ceases to exist. If you believe otherwise, then you need to repent because believing false doctrine is a sin of the flesh.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Ga 5:19–21)​

 

[Tenchi]

IF a person is far from God he fan be saved.
OK

So if a person is far from God HE NEEDS SAVING.

If I wander off from God, I become lost and am in need of SAVING...
no matter what condition I was in before I wandered off.

But this assumes that your salvation by God, your adoption by God, your spiritual regeneration by God, is all dependent upon you. It isn't, as I've explained from Scripture in my last couple of posts to you. You are a recipient of God's saving work, nothing more. And when God adopts, redeems and regenerates you spiritually, you haven't the power to undo His work.

Jesus tells the parable of The Lost Sheep.
The sheep was in the fold.
He was safe.
He wandered off.
He became lost and in danger of being killed.
Jesus went to look for him to save him...AGAIN...like the Prodigal Son.

Was the sheep ever not the Shepherd's sheep? No. It was precisely because the sheep was the Shepherd's sheep that he went looking for it. Wandering off did not cost the sheep its membership in the Shepherd's fold; it's wandering did not undo its relationship to the Shepherd as one of his own. How this parable stands, then, as ground for a salvation-lost doctrine, I don't know.

Do you wonder then why this scripture keeps being brought up to you?

No. I understand very well how often and badly professing Christians have been taught and have thought through this parable.

Are you saying that JESUS was wrong is saying that the person's salvation was TEMPORARY?

No, I'm saying that your assumption that this is what he's saying is in error.

He might have had a familial relationship....
but he was given his inheritance and was due NO MORE from his father....
except the father's love WHEN HE RETURNED HOME and was found AGAIN.

Could you please post some verses in the parable that explains what you believe?

Just to be clear: Your reply here doesn't give any actual defeater to what I've pointed out about the parable.

Luke 15:11-32
11 And he said, “There was a man who had two sons.
12 And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of property that is coming to me.’ And he divided his property between them.
13 Not many days later, the younger son gathered all he had and took a journey into a far country, and there he squandered his property in reckless living.

[Jesus refers to the Prodigal here as "the younger son," giving no hint that the relationship between father and son, as such, had changed.]

14 And when he had spent everything, a severe famine arose in that country, and he began to be in need.
15 So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed pigs.
16 And he was longing to be fed with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one gave him anything.
17 “But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger!

[All of the "he" pronouns in this section of the story refer back, grammatically, to "the younger son." Again, there is no hint in these verses that the son was no longer a son to his father, that their relationship had been dissolved.]

18 I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you.
19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants.”’
20 And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.

[In this section, both the son and the father acknowledge their relationship to one another. There is nothing in what they say, or do, that indicates that their relationship had dissolved. The father, in particular, gives no hint in his behavior toward his son that something fundamental had changed between them such that his son was no longer his son. The father did not even wait upon an apology, an admission of wrongdoing, from his boy before rushing out and embracing him.]

21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
22 But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet.

[The father makes no reply to his son's admission of wrong. He doesn't admonish him, or put any caveats on his acceptance of his boy's return. He is just thrilled his boy has come back home. I don't see, then, any suggestion in this bit of the parable that the father-son relationship had collapsed.]

23 And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate.
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.

[So, to this point there is nothing in the story to suggest the relationship of son to father was dissolved. What, then, did the father mean when he said, "my son was dead, and is alive again"? Well, as I pointed out, the father immediately explained what he meant: "he was lost, and is found." Not, "I disowned my son and dissolved all relationship to him but have now changed my mind"; not, "my son was dead to me, he was one whom I'd rejected completely, but, now he's back, I've changed my mind." No, the son was "lost" and is "found" only insofar as their fellowship with one another was concerned. This fact is highlighted in the manner of the father's immediate and intimate interaction with his son when the son returns. It's hugs and kisses and "Let's have a party!": fellowship.

We layer on modern meaning to the "lost" and "found" terms, but Jesus's Jewish audience would not have understood Christ to mean "lost salvation" and "found salvation." And I don't think he would have wanted them to. The story was really all about the father whose conduct would have shocked Christ's original audience. The parable portrayed an attitude in the father of enduring love, and faithfulness, and patience that ancient Jews would have bridled at. The story is actually about a father who, despite enormous provocation, wouldn't cast aside his own; it is NOT a story that offers a threat of salvation lost but of persevering paternal faithfulness.]

I don't have time to write more at the moment. I think, though, to use your phrase, that I've "put a lot of meat on the table." Hopefully, in doing so, I've made my views much clearer to you.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

I've heard this many times.
So where does the NT say this?
Unless you could prove this biblically, it is only your opinion.

I referenced Tenchi's post that contained a verse that speaks to my point. My observation, and I admit it is only an opinion (though my opinions are informed both by the Spirit and the Scriptures He originally inspired and which He currently explains) is that people often misunderstand Scriptures and project into them their desired meaning. Many times they are not open to changing their minds. As a result, many times two people can read the same verse and come to different conclusions about what it means. So, saying that it is necessary to "prove this biblically" often has no chance of success.

Maybe you could explain the verses I also posted to Tenchi:
2 Peter 2:20-22
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

But I will give it a try...

The key to understanding these verses is the proverb that describes what happend to those folks... “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” (2 Pe 2:22) The point is that dogs do what dogs do and pigs do what pigs do. If a person turns away from Christ, he was never a Christian to begin with. He was always just a dog or a pig, doing what dogs and pigs do... not resting all their hope in Christ.

Adults are baptized who then decide to walk away from God.

Could show biblically that a person MUST stay with God after salvation.

Do you believe in free will?
Did you lose that free will when you became saved?

I do not think I share the Catholic view of free will.

The life He give is eternal.
But He has not given you life eternally unless you obey God till the end of your life.

I can prove biblically this is false...

The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. (1 Jn 5:10–12 NASB)​

The verb tenses make it clear that we have eternal life now. And in fact, the preludes make it clear that anyone who does not believe God's testimony to us that He has given us the eternal life that exists only in Jesus is making God into a liar.

Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
James 1:12
Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.
Hebrews 3:14
For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
Please post some verses that state you cannot lose your salvation.

How about, I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. What part of eternal is not eternal, and what part of never perish includes perishing?

I agree.

But where in the NT is this declared?
I can't find any verse that states this.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. (1 Jn 2:19)​

You just said that IF A PERSON DEPARTS FROM THE FAITH.

And this is correct.
A person departs from the faith...
What else could he be departing from?

This is what Peter tells us:

2 Peter 3:14
Therefore, beloved, (born again believers) since you look for these things, be DILIGENT to be FOUND by Him in peace, SPOTLESS and BLAMELESS.
Why does Peter say this?
What if Jesus does not find us spotless and blameless?
Does it sound like a warning?

2 Peter 3:17
17You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,

There are also verses about being steadfast, but this should suffice to make a point.

I don't read the verses as saying we lose our salvation when we fail to walk in the Spirit and instead gratify the lusts of the flesh. That doesn't mean I place no value and ascribe no rewards to walking in the Spirit. It only means I see different consequences for sin than you do.

 

[donadams]

Yes they are salvation issues. That's why we all need Jesus. But when Jesus saves us, He saves us from the condemnation that we deserve because of our sins. In other words, He rescued us from the damnation that sin earns us. And not only that, but He created in us a new hearts in which righteousness dwells that the devil can't take away by trickery or deceit. And when we exit this life, we will be like Him and see Him as He is.

Everyone who is now saved (including you, if you are saved, in spite of denying that you are saved and claiming that you are working toward it) once lived only in the flesh. When we were in the flesh, the sinful desires of the flesh "were aroused by the law", "were at work in our members", and brought "fruit to death". But now that we are saved, having been "delivered from the law", we "have become dead to the law", and we are dead "to what we were held by" so that we may serve Him "in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter."

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. (Ro 7:4–6)​

The law does not have the same effect on saved people and lost people. To the lost, the law engenders fear of eternal damnation, and it's purpose is to drive them to Christ for forgiveness (verses and explanation available upon request). But the saved react to the law with gratitude that all the condemnation due to them because of their sins were wiped away at the cross of Christ. As a result, they can serve Him in the newness of the life they have in Christ, knowing that there is no condemnation to them.

He tells us to watch and pray

We have union with him by the grace of his sacraments and need his help to maintain the grace of justification

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

He tells us to watch and pray

I see what's going on and I pray. I do not know how it is possible for the church to recover from it's current state of unbelief, but I pray that God will intervene to lead us out of it instead of taking the kingdom away from us and giving it to others as He warned could happen in Romans 11:21-22.

We have union with him by the grace of his sacraments and need his help to maintain the grace of justification

This is an example of how far we've fallen. Observing rituals can't remove the guilt and effects of original sin, they can't incorporate us into the body Christ, they can't bring the Holy Spirit into our hearts, they can't sanctify us or make us holy, they can't grow us in the likeness of Christ, they can't reconcile us to God, and they are not a source of God's grace.

Real Christianity is relational, not transactional. Jesus Himself is the author and finisher of our faith. We find these things in Him, not in rituals.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Good morning, and good questions. I have answers and a question. The question is first...
If you agree that the new man is sinless and incorruptible, why would you conclude that he can sin or be corrupted by sin?

I don't conclude that at all.
God's seed, from which the regenerated are re-birthed, cannot bring forth liars, thieves, or adulterers.

Jesus explained that the differences between the flesh and the spirit can be traced to their origins. He said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (Jn 3:6) What we received from our parents through physical birth is "flesh". But what we received from God through Spiritual birth is spirit. I know there may be a ton of dogma that may keep you from seeing this difference, but it is the answer to your question.

If your POV concerning the origins of the skin and bones is correct, it would nullify Romans 6:6 and Gal 5:24..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Rom 6:6)
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
These verses show the end of what had been born of the "flesh".
That which has been reborn of the Spirit is spirit !

Actually, the heart is the source of sin...

16 So Jesus said, “Are you also still without understanding? 17 Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. 20 These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.” (Mt 15:16–20)​

You didn't get a new "heart" at rebirth ?
How can you be reborn...partially ?
Paul says we have the mind of Christ, in 1 Cor 2:16..."For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ."
Unless you are going to submit that the "heart" and the "mind" are different things in the bible, it is clear our old "heart-mind" is gone.
We have a new one.

There are many Scriptures that describe the flesh/spirit model of Christianity. Perhaps the most poingnant one is Galatians 5:16-18...

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. (Ga 5:16–18)​

Can't you see then, that committers of sin are "contrary" to the Spirit ?
Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh !
Those clinging to the supposedly destroyed flesh, (Rom 6:6, Gal 5:24), are not walking in the Spirit.

What the flesh wants and what the Spirit wants are in adversarial opposition. They each want their own desires to be fulfilled. And the only way for a person to deny their flesh what it wants is to "Walk in the Spirit".

If your old "flesh" is still alive, you can't walk in the Spirit.
Only rebirth from God's seed can alleviate that problem.

And to top all this off, we do have the sure hope that one day we will be completely free of the corruption of the flesh and will have bodies that are as incorruptible as our spirits are now...

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (1 Co 15:42–44)​

Personally, my fingers, toes, eyes, and hands have never forced my mind to commit sin...since my rebirth.
If yours have, I recommend following Jesus words from Matt 5:29..."And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."

You can do that the NT way by destroying/crucifying the old man, (Rom 6:6, Gal 5:24), and being reborn from God's seed.

 

[Hopeful 2]

As I said, sinless perfection exists in the new man, corruption exists in the flesh.

Who is in charge ?
Your new man, or your skin and bones ?

Sinless perfection for humans comes only after death when their flesh ceases to exist.

That happens for Christians at their "immersion" into Christ and into His death and burial.
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." (Rom 6:3-4)

If you believe otherwise, then you need to repent because believing false doctrine is a sin of the flesh.

My belief has freed me from sin.
What has your done ?

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Ga 5:19–21)​

Those who do those things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Wanna' stop doing those things ?

 

[Tenchi]

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say we have (present progressive tense) no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned (past tense), we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[Hopeful 2]

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say we have (present progressive tense) no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned (past tense), we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

If we have been cleansed of all unrighteousness, what prevents us from saying we have no unrighteousness ?
Walk in the light, and you won't commit sin.

 

[GodsGrace]

But this assumes that your salvation by God, your adoption by God, your spiritual regeneration by God, is all dependent upon you. It isn't, as I've explained from Scripture in my last couple of posts to you. You are a recipient of God's saving work, nothing more. And when God adopts, redeems and regenerates you spiritually, you haven't the power to undo His work.

Of course my salvation is up to me.

BELIEVE IN THE LORD AND YOU WILL BE SAVED.
THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVES SHALL NOT PERISH
IF YOU HAVE THE FAITH OF A MUSTARD SEED (WHO'S FAITH?)
SINCE WE HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED BY FAITH (WHO'S FAITH?)
IF YOU CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH AND BELIEVE WITH YOUR HEART
HAVE FAITH IN GOD (MARK 11:22) (WHO IS TO HAVE FAITH?)
THE TESTED GENUINESS OF YOUR FAITH (WHO'S FAITH?) 1 PETER 1:6
WHOEVER HEARS MY VOICE AND BELIEVES HIM WHO SENT ME
WHOEVER BELIEVES HAS ETERNAL LIFE
UNLESS YOU BELIEVE I AM HE YOU WILL DIE IN YOUR SINS


Need more? There's plenty more.

God did HIS part....
now we do ours.

If you wish to discuss scripture, you're going to have to POST SCRIPTURE.
So far, you have posted just a couple of verses to which I believe I replied, which is a habit of mine.
As I said, I'm not here to play verse ping pong.

Genesis 48:15
15 Then he blessed Joseph and said, “May the God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked faithfully, the God who has been my shepherd all my life to this day,
Isaiah 40:11
11 He tends his flock like a shepherd: He gathers the lambs in his arms and carries them close to his heart; he gently leads those that have young.
Mark 6:34
34 When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them, because they were like sheep without a shepherd. So he began teaching them many things.
GOD is the shepherd. Many more such verses as In Jeremiah and Ezekiel.
GOD is the shepherd of His flock ... which anyone may join if the person ascribes to my above list.
ONE OF THE SHEEP WANDERED AWAY...
Jesus went to look for him...
He IS the good shepher.
The sheep was IN DANGER of loosing his life.

God is ALWAYS waiting for us to return...
and His grace calls us even when we are far from Him.

Colossians 1:21-22
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast
A lot of "ifs" in the NT.
What do they mean to you?

Was the sheep ever not the Shepherd's sheep? No. It was precisely because the sheep was the Shepherd's sheep that he went looking for it. Wandering off did not cost the sheep its membership in the Shepherd's fold; it's wandering did not undo its relationship to the Shepherd as one of his own. How this parable stands, then, as ground for a salvation-lost doctrine, I don't know.

You know, Jesus used parables to make points.
The point of the Shepherd is to show that GOD HIMSELF, as was promised in the OT, will take care of His sheep.
Parables should not be misused to twist whatever your idea is into them.

No. I understand very well how often and badly professing Christians have been taught and have thought through this parable.



No, I'm saying that your assumption that this is what he's saying is in error.



Just to be clear: Your reply here doesn't give any actual defeater to what I've pointed out about the parable.

Luke 15:11-32
11 And he said, “There was a man who had two sons.
12 And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of property that is coming to me.’ And he divided his property between them.
13 Not many days later, the younger son gathered all he had and took a journey into a far country, and there he squandered his property in reckless living.

[Jesus refers to the Prodigal here as "the younger son," giving no hint that the relationship between father and son, as such, had changed.]

14 And when he had spent everything, a severe famine arose in that country, and he began to be in need.
15 So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed pigs.
16 And he was longing to be fed with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one gave him anything.
17 “But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger!

[All of the "he" pronouns in this section of the story refer back, grammatically, to "the younger son." Again, there is no hint in these verses that the son was no longer a son to his father, that their relationship had been dissolved.]

18 I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you.
19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants.”’
20 And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.

[In this section, both the son and the father acknowledge their relationship to one another. There is nothing in what they say, or do, that indicates that their relationship had dissolved. The father, in particular, gives no hint in his behavior toward his son that something fundamental had changed between them such that his son was no longer his son. The father did not even wait upon an apology, an admission of wrongdoing, from his boy before rushing out and embracing him.]

21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
22 But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet.

[The father makes no reply to his son's admission of wrong. He doesn't admonish him, or put any caveats on his acceptance of his boy's return. He is just thrilled his boy has come back home. I don't see, then, any suggestion in this bit of the parable that the father-son relationship had collapsed.]

23 And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate.
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.

[So, to this point there is nothing in the story to suggest the relationship of son to father was dissolved. What, then, did the father mean when he said, "my son was dead, and is alive again"? Well, as I pointed out, the father immediately explained what he meant: "he was lost, and is found." Not, "I disowned my son and dissolved all relationship to him but have now changed my mind"; not, "my son was dead to me, he was one whom I'd rejected completely, but, now he's back, I've changed my mind." No, the son was "lost" and is "found" only insofar as their fellowship with one another was concerned. This fact is highlighted in the manner of the father's immediate and intimate interaction with his son when the son returns. It's hugs and kisses and "Let's have a party!": fellowship.

We layer on modern meaning to the "lost" and "found" terms, but Jesus's Jewish audience would not have understood Christ to mean "lost salvation" and "found salvation." And I don't think he would have wanted them to. The story was really all about the father whose conduct would have shocked Christ's original audience. The parable portrayed an attitude in the father of enduring love, and faithfulness, and patience that ancient Jews would have bridled at. The story is actually about a father who, despite enormous provocation, wouldn't cast aside his own; it is NOT a story that offers a threat of salvation lost but of persevering paternal faithfulness.]

I don't have time to write more at the moment. I think, though, to use your phrase, that I've "put a lot of meat on the table." Hopefully, in doing so, I've made my views much clearer to you.

Lost and Found is not a modern meaning.

Here's what Paul thought of being lost:

1 Corinthians 9:27
but I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

CASTAWAY
THROWN OUT
BANISHED
LOST

BTW....
Check out Luke 15:19 that you posted above.
I AM NO LONGER WORTHY TO BE CALLED YOUR SON.

Even the Prodigal Son knew he was no longer worthy.
Unfortunately we believe we're worthy no matter what we do or how we live.

 

[GodsGrace]

I referenced Tenchi's post that contained a verse that speaks to my point. My observation, and I admit it is only an opinion (though my opinions are informed both by the Spirit and the Scriptures He originally inspired and which He currently explains) is that people often misunderstand Scriptures and project into them their desired meaning. Many times they are not open to changing their minds. As a result, many times two people can read the same verse and come to different conclusions about what it means. So, saying that it is necessary to "prove this biblically" often has no chance of success.

I hope you reply to the verses I posted:
2 Peter 2:20-22

I agree that people often misunderstand scripture.
Projection is called eisegesis -- and this is done all the time.
So, WHO should be open to changing their mind?
HOW can we know which person is correct?

We could start if you would explain 2 Peter.

But I will give it a try...

The key to understanding these verses is the proverb that describes what happend to those folks... “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” (2 Pe 2:22) The point is that dogs do what dogs do and pigs do what pigs do. If a person turns away from Christ, he was never a Christian to begin with. He was always just a dog or a pig, doing what dogs and pigs do... not resting all their hope in Christ.

But 2 Peter states that a person is RETURNING to something.
It means they had SOMETHING
LOST IT
And are RETURNING TO IT.

Listen:

THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE DEFILEMENTS OF THE WORLD. 2 Peter 2:20
Who has escaped?
What does THE WORLD mean?



BY THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS
Does this sound like they had come to KNOW Jesus as Lord and Savior?

THEY ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED IN THEM AND ARE OVERCOME
Entangled in them.....the things of the world which they had escaped.
They are overcome....they are DEFEATED....overcome means defeated.

THE LAST STATE FOR THEM IS WORSE THAN THE FIRST
The last state is when they returned the the world and were overcome.
The first state is when they did not believe BEFORE they came to know Jesus and left the world.

The LAST STATE is worse THAN THE FIRST.
Where were they in the inbetween state??

I do not think I share the Catholic view of free will.

What IS the Catholic view of free will?

Do you mean that you believe those unsaved persons do not have free will?

I can prove biblically this is false...

The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. (1 Jn 5:10–12 NASB)​

The verb tenses make it clear that we have eternal life now. And in fact, the preludes make it clear that anyone who does not believe God's testimony to us that He has given us the eternal life that exists only in Jesus is making God into a liar.

Right. Without even getting into a discussion of what eternal life means biblically.....
I'll say that what you've posted is correct.

THE LIFE IS IN HIS SON.

If we're far from the Son...we have no life.

HE WHO HAS THE SON HAS THE LIFE.
Please not that the tense is present.
No Son
No Life

If a person returns to a life of sin....Does he have the Son?

2 Peter does come in handy....

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Are we supposed to obey the Son or not?
If we do NOT obey Him, are we still saved?

How about, I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. What part of eternal is not eternal, and what part of never perish includes perishing?

Well, as you correctly pointed out...it's in the tense.
We shouldn't be taking the bible apart even sentence by sentence... let alone word by word.
It's a complete thought.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. (1 Jn 2:19)​

Study some church history.
Did you know that gnostics had entered into the church?
Did you know that John was very concerned about this?
Did you know he was talking about the gnostics here?

1 John 2:18
18Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.

JOHN?S RESPONSE TO PROTO-GNOSTICISM IN HIS FIRST EPISTLE​

on June 4, 2015


Based on the internal evidence of 1 and 2 John, a problem had arisen within the church, possibly throughout Asia Minor. We know from church history that near the end of the first century, and in the early second century, proto-Gnosticism, specifically Docetism, arose within the church (Bruce, 16?17; Burdick, 61?63; Williamson, 50).

source: https://blog.lexhampress.com/2015/0...nse-to-proto-gnosticism-in-his-first-epistle/


Much more on this topic if you're interested.
Seeing as how you like to understand scripture...
you should know why some writers say some things....

I don't read the verses as saying we lose our salvation when we fail to walk in the Spirit and instead gratify the lusts of the flesh. That doesn't mean I place no value and ascribe no rewards to walking in the Spirit. It only means I see different consequences for sin than you do.

How do you know what consequences I put on sin?
What consequences do YOU put on sin?

And why can't we believe about sin plainly what the bible teaches us?

If we sin
Are we obeying God?

If we don't obey God
Are we saved?

Read John 3:36 again....
Read Matthew 7:23
Read every time Jesus spoke about not obeying Him.
He said that IF we follow His commandments we are His friends.

John 15:14
. 14“You are My friends if you do what I command you.

What commandments?
What if we don't follow them?
Are we still His friend?

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say we have (present progressive tense) no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned (past tense), we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

You are correct.