Bible Study Do we love the truth!

[donadams]

Actually, it is not past tense.

For​

by

grace​

•​

you​

have​

been​

saved​

through​

faith​

γὰρ​

→

τῇ χάριτί​

ἐστε​

→​

→​

→​

σεσωσμένοι​

διὰ​

τῆς πίστεως​

CLX​

DDSF NDSF​

VPAI2P​

​

​

​

VRPP-PNM​

P​

DGSF NGSF​

The New King James Version (Eph 2:8). (1982). Thomas Nelson.​

Notice the word "ἐστε" is a verb (V) in the present tense (P), active voice (A), indicative mood (I), second person (2), and plural number (P). The word is a form of "be", and translated it means, "you (pl) are". In the South, we'd say "Y'all are". This is the main verb in the phrase (and in the sentence).

The supporting verb, "σεσωσμένοι", is actually a Greek participle which has characteristics of a verb and an adjective. Declined, it is a verb (V), perfect tense (R), passive voice (P), participle (P), plural number (P), nominative case (N), and masculine gender (M). Having perfect tense and being a participle, it reflects completed action that has abiding results in the present, with the emphasis on the resulting state of being. As an adjective in the nominative case, it indicates the subject of the sentence. The word means, therefore, "the ones who have been and are currently saved". In other words, their salvation occured in the past and they stand saved.

So, the nuances of this phrase can be best understood as, "For by grace you are (at this very moment) those who have been saved (and stand saved) through faith". The wording indicates salvation happened, was complete, and the results stand. It does not indicate a process that is ongoing. The same is true for the sentence which preceeds the one in question:

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (Eph 2:4–7).​

He made those of us who have been saved and stand saved (perfect passive participle) alive together with Christ (simple action in past time), raised us up together with Christ (simple action in past time), and made us sit together with Christ (simple action in past time) so that in the future He might make show (simple action in past time) to all creation just how good and kind of a God He is in His sacrifice of His Son for our sins. In other words, we have been saved, we stand saved, and in the future we will be an object lesson for all creation to observe just how good a God He is.

Simply refers to the general redemption of Christ making possible the next step justification
But it cannot refer to the Protestant concept of salvation by faith alone, (((not of yourselves)))

Thanks

A short catechism!

Jn 3:16 ((believe in Christ))
Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 1 cor 16:13 gal 3:27 ((union with Christ by faith & baptism))
Jn 15:4 ((we must abide in Christ))
1 cor 13:2 (( charity & not by faith alone))
Phil 1:29 ((suffering not by faith alone))
Matt 25 Jn 15:5 phil 4:13 ((grace vivifies our works to be meritorious and salutary))
Matt 24:13 ((endure to the end to be saved))
Jn 5:29 ((good unto life & evil unto death))
Romans 8:17 2 Tim 2:12 ((glorified with Christ if we suffer with Him))
Rom 2:6 Rev 2: 19 ((reward for good works done in no no Christ & grace))

 

[donadams]

JLB made it clear from the very first post..."First and foremost we need to understand that the truth is both something as well as Someone."

Christ is the word of God & the truth!
Divine origin!

We believe God because God is truth!

God can neither deceive or be deceived

Thks

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Simply refers to the general redemption of Christ making possible the next step justification
But it cannot refer to the Protestant concept of salvation by faith alone, (((not of yourselves)))

Thanks

A short catechism!

Jn 3:16 ((believe in Christ))
Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 1 cor 16:13 gal 3:27 ((union with Christ by faith & baptism))
Jn 15:4 ((we must abide in Christ))
1 cor 13:2 (( charity & not by faith alone))
Phil 1:29 ((suffering not by faith alone))
Matt 25 Jn 15:5 phil 4:13 ((grace vivifies our works to be meritorious and salutary))
Matt 24:13 ((endure to the end to be saved))
Jn 5:29 ((good unto life & evil unto death))
Romans 8:17 2 Tim 2:12 ((glorified with Christ if we suffer with Him))
Rom 2:6 Rev 2: 19 ((reward for good works done in no no Christ & grace))

I'm not Protestant, I'm Baptist.

Certainly it cannot refer to the Catholic concept of salvation by works, because it says, "not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Eph 2:9)

See, I can be strident too.

 

[Tenchi]

I don’t know what this means.

“Yes”. Means you agree.

“but of what sort”?

What sort of the truth?

Is that what you are asking?

Please re-read - and consider - my last post. I explained very clearly what I meant in it.

Truth propositions? What is that?

Brother, If Jesus Christ is the Truth and He is also the Word, why would you believe His words are not the truth?

Again, please re-read my last post. And then, pause and consider what it means.

JLB made it clear from the very first post..."First and foremost we need to understand that the truth is both something as well as Someone."

And as I've pointed out, they are not one-and-the-same thing, they aren't identical. The Truth, who is Christ, is very different from the truth statements that issue from him. JLB is conflating these things and suggesting that there is no clear difference between them.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Please re-read - and consider - my last post. I explained very clearly what I meant in it.

Again, please re-read my last post. And then, pause and consider what it means.

And as I've pointed out, they are not one-and-the-same thing, they aren't identical. The Truth, who is Christ, is very different from the truth statements that issue from him. JLB is conflating these things and suggesting that there is no clear difference between them.

Conflating the two can devolve into Bible worship.

 

[donadams]

I'm not Protestant, I'm Baptist.

Certainly it cannot refer to the Catholic concept of salvation by works, because it says, "not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Eph 2:9)

See, I can be strident too.

That means not of natural works done completely spy from Christ and grace not works done by members of Christ united to His grace that vivifies (life eph 2:1 & 5) our actions

Thks

 

[Hopeful 2]

And as I've pointed out, they are not one-and-the-same thing, they aren't identical. The Truth, who is Christ, is very different from the truth statements that issue from him. JLB is conflating these things and suggesting that there is no clear difference between them.

I am a twin, but I am not both twins.
I think you misunderstand JLB just for argument's sake.

 

[Tenchi]

I am a twin, but I am not both twins.
I think you misunderstand JLB just for argument's sake.

Well, what you think speaks only to who you are, not to anything that is actually the case concerning me.

I see a very serious error in thinking propositional truth is of a kind with the Person who is The Truth. You and your twin are of a kind with each other: both of you are human, sharing all the fundamental traits of humanness. But this isn't the case with the Person who is The Truth and propositions that express truth. The truth propositions emanating from The Truth do not share in Christ's divine, personal attributes (consciousness, non-contingency, causal power, etc.), as I already pointed out, so your parallel to yourself and your twin isn't legitimate. The truth statements we encounter in the Bible are more akin to an oil painting. The painting comes from a painter and expresses something of the painter, but no one would say, therefore, that the painting and the painter are identical. So, too, with Christ, the "painter" of Scripture.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

That means not of natural works done completely spy from Christ and grace not works done by members of Christ united to His grace that vivifies (life eph 2:1 & 5) our actions

Thks

Vivify (Merriam-Webster): 1) to endow with life or renewed life: Animate; 2) to impart vitality or vividness to.

If members of Christ who are "united to His grace that vivifies their actions" fail to perform said vivified works and fail to obtain salvation as a result while others do perform said vivified works and do obtain salvation as a result, then the latter earned their salvation by performing their vivified works and they have something of which to boast. But "saved by grace through faith" excludes works and prevents boasting.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Well, what you think speaks only to who you are, not to anything that is actually the case concerning me.

I see a very serious error in thinking propositional truth is of a kind with the Person who is The Truth. You and your twin are of a kind with each other: both of you are human, sharing all the fundamental traits of humanness. But this isn't the case with the Person who is The Truth and propositions that express truth. The truth propositions emanating from The Truth do not share in Christ's divine, personal attributes (consciousness, non-contingency, causal power, etc.), as I already pointed out, so your parallel to yourself and your twin isn't legitimate. The truth statements we encounter in the Bible are more akin to an oil painting. The painting comes from a painter and expresses something of the painter, but no one would say, therefore, that the painting and the painter are identical. So, too, with Christ, the "painter" of Scripture.

What both have in common is the important thing.
Neither can be refuted.
Both come from God.
Both are pure and unadulterated.
Both should be obeyed.
Both are loved by the righteous.

 

[JLB]

Maybe you could explain how you think it works.

Someone is "sent" to preach the Gospel:
Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand - Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Whoever believes and therefore obeys the call to repent will be saved.
Repent means to turn to God (in submission to Jesus Christ as LORD)
If we are called to turn to God, then by default we are called to turn away from Satan as our lord.
The way we repent is to confess with our mouth Jesus Christ as our LORD.

Paul says it this way -

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” 14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:9-17

• How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
• And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
• And how shall they hear without a preacher?
• And how shall they preach unless they are sent?

JLB

 

[JLB]

Sacraments are the fruit of Christ’s sacrifice, the means of grace!

Thanks for sharing your opinion, however this is a bible study discussion, not a catechism discussion.


Let's please use scripture and context to make our point.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Please re-read - and consider - my last post. I explained very clearly what I meant in it.



Again, please re-read my last post. And then, pause and consider what it means.



And as I've pointed out, they are not one-and-the-same thing, they aren't identical. The Truth, who is Christ, is very different from the truth statements that issue from him. JLB is conflating these things and suggesting that there is no clear difference between them.

I read your post and I disagree.

Jesus Christ is the Truth.

His Gospel is the truth.
His doctrine is the truth
His commandments are the truth.

How could Jesus be called the Truth if His words were not the truth.


What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written:
“That You may be justified in Your words, and may overcome when You are judged.” Romans 3:1-4


Jesus is called the Truth because His words are the truth.


Please give a scriptural example of where Jesus' words are not the truth.






JLB

 

[donadams]

Vivify (Merriam-Webster): 1) to endow with life or renewed life: Animate; 2) to impart vitality or vividness to.

If members of Christ who are "united to His grace that vivifies their actions" fail to perform said vivified works and fail to obtain salvation as a result while others do perform said vivified works and do obtain salvation as a result, then the latter earned their salvation by performing their vivified works and they have something of which to boast. But "saved by grace through faith" excludes works and prevents boasting.

You can also perform the same works “naturally” without grace and be lost!

Do it is God and his grace that saves, all you could say is what scripture says “they are faithful!”!

Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Lk 16:10
1 cor 4:2
1 cor 4:17
1 cor 7:25
Col 1:2
Col 1:7
and too many to list here


Ephesians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Revelation 17:14
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Btw why does he say I know Thy works? Why not I know Thy “faith alone”?

Antipas was faithful and ordained priest and consecrated bishop by the apostle John.

Explain please

Matt 25:21-46

Talents and good works

And please explain this in light of the doctrine of “faith alone!

Jn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

More below

 

[donadams]

Conditional perseverance:

((If you are saved there would no reason to participate, no reason to abide or endure, and no need for perseverance))

Mk 13:13
Matt 7:14
Matt 16:24
Matt 24:13
Jn 2:24-25
Jn 8:9
Jn 15:4
Jn 15:5
Jn 15:4
Jn 15:10
Rom 1:5
Rom 8:13-17
Rom 11:22
1 cor 7:24
1 cor 13:7
2 thes 1:4
Gal 5:2-4
Gal 5:25
Col 1:21-23
Col 2:5
2 Tim 2:3
2 Tim 2:12
1 pet 2:20
1 Jn 2:24-28
1 Jn 3:6
Heb 3:4-6
Heb 6:4-9
Heb 12:7
Heb 12:22-25
James 1:12

1 John 2:6
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

But since your save you don’t really have to.

(((The “Your Saved” gospel is another gospel and not the true gospel revealed by Christ and taught by His church))) Matt 28:19
Gal 1:6 1 Timothy 4:1 2 Tim 4:3

((Dogma the faith of Christians))

110. There is a supernatural influence of God in the faculties of the soul which coincides in time with man’s free act of will.

122. The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not
irresistible.

Matt 25:28
Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Had the grace of God and lost it!

D for dogma catholic and divine faith

D 133. Grace can be increased by good works.

Grace requires works to bear fruit
Matt 21:43
Jn 15:4

Thks

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

You can also perform the same works “naturally” without grace and be lost!

Do it is God and his grace that saves, all you could say is what scripture says “they are faithful!”!

Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Lk 16:10
1 cor 4:2
1 cor 4:17
1 cor 7:25
Col 1:2
Col 1:7
and too many to list here

Ephesians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Revelation 17:14
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Btw why does he say I know Thy works? Why not I know Thy “faith alone”?

Antipas was faithful and ordained priest and consecrated bishop by the apostle John.

Explain please

Matt 25:21-46

Talents and good works

And please explain this in light of the doctrine of “faith alone!

Jn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

More below

There are many in the faith plus works saves me crowd. You place yourself squarely among them. But even you must admit that you fall short of the righteousness and holiness that God requires of you, right? What do you do about that? Do you seek His forgiveness?

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Someone is "sent" to preach the Gospel:
Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand - Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Whoever believes and therefore obeys the call to repent will be saved.
Repent means to turn to God (in submission to Jesus Christ as LORD)
If we are called to turn to God, then by default we are called to turn away from Satan as our lord.
The way we repent is to confess with our mouth Jesus Christ as our LORD.

Paul says it this way -

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” 14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:9-17

• How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
• And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
• And how shall they hear without a preacher?
• And how shall they preach unless they are sent?

JLB

I asked about a preacher's comment that he had gone as many as three days in a row without sinning. I was wondering how you might react to that comment, and asked:

If a person commits one sin every three days of his life, he is a habitual sinner right? He doesn't remain in Him because his failure to obey Him means his commitment to follow Jesus as Lord was not worth the paper it was written on. Is that what you're saying?​

I further asked that if you commend the pastor, please make sure you state how the Lordship status of Christ is maintained when he sins once every 3 days of his life. And I asked if you do not commend the pastor, please make sure you explain how anyone could live up to your standard.

Your response above was only about becoming saved. But you mentioned in a previous post that remaining in Him was also required to maintain salvation. That's what I was asking you about.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

What does it refer to ?
Please differentiate between "been saved" and "have salvation" .

"saved by grace" refers to salvation. I gave an lol to Don Adams saying it doesn't.

If you have been saved, you have salvation. Or you could say, if you were saved, you are saved.

 

[JLB]

But you mentioned in a previous post that remaining in Him was also required to maintain salvation.

Yes, Jesus warned us as Christians to remain in Him.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

If a person is no longer "in Christ", because they have been removed from Him, then they have returned to being unreconciled to Him.



The biblical name for this is being "lost".

Jesus describes this in the following way -

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

Key verses:

• What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them
• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’
• I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

Notice that His sheep that wandered away and became lost had returned to being described as a sinner, unlike the 99 who were described by the Lord as being "just".


In Christ = Just

No longer in Christ = unjust, sinner, lost - in need of repentance to be reconciled back to the Lord.






JLB

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Conditional perseverance:

((If you are saved there would no reason to participate, no reason to abide or endure, and no need for perseverance))

Actually, in a strange way, you are right. Since I am saved, I don't need to "participate", "abide", "endure", or "persevere" in order to be saved. And if you are not saved, none of those things will help you.