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Bible Study Do we love the truth!

JLB said:
Yes, Jesus warned us as Christians to remain in Him.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

If a person is no longer "in Christ", because they have been removed from Him, then they have returned to being unreconciled to Him.

The biblical name for this is being "lost".

Jesus describes this in the following way -

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

Key verses:
  • What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them
  • Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’
  • I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Notice that His sheep that wandered away and became lost had returned to being described as a sinner, unlike the 99 who were described by the Lord as being "just".

In Christ = Just

No longer in Christ = unjust, sinner, lost - in need of repentance to be reconciled back to the Lord.

JLB
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So the pastor becomes lost every third day upon sinning, then must be saved again?
 
NewLifeInChrist said:
So the pastor becomes lost every third day upon sinning, then must be saved again?
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I never mentioned "being saved again".

The scripture uses the word "lost".

If we sin, we can go to God and confess our sins and be forgiven and cleansed.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9


However, if we choose not to confess our sins and continue in the lifestyle of sin, then we can certainly become lost, like the prodigal son, who lived a lifestyle of sinful behavior, having left his father for the sinful pleasures of this world.


It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’ ” Luke 15:32





JLB
 
JLB said:
I never mentioned "being saved again".

The scripture uses the word "lost".

If we sin, we can go to God and confess our sins and be forgiven and cleansed.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

However, if we choose not to confess our sins and continue in the lifestyle of sin, then we can certainly become lost, like the prodigal son, who lived a lifestyle of sinful behavior, having left his father for the sinful pleasures of this world.

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’ ” Luke 15:32

JLB
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This is confusing for sure... I do not understand why anyone who is wholly dependent on Jesus' forgiveness would turn his back on that dependency and declare that his rightness with God is because he does what is required of him.
 
JLB said:
I read your post and I disagree.

Jesus Christ is the Truth.

His Gospel is the truth.
His doctrine is the truth
His commandments are the truth.

How could Jesus be called the Truth if His words were not the truth.
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I'm not sure why you're misunderstanding my remarks so consistently, except that you are doing so willfully.

Is an autobiography identical to the person who wrote it? It's filled with truth about the author, revealing his character, personal philosophy, and history. Can you, though, have a conversation with the autobiography as you can with its author? No. Can the autobiography get up and make itself a cup of coffee, or drive down to the mall and do some shopping? No. But the author of the autobiography can. In the very same way, the revelation of God in His word is an "autobiography" of God. It is filled with truth about it's Author, revealing His character, His mind, and His purposes to us. But your Bible can't make a universe and then sustain it moment-by-moment. Your Bible doesn't have thoughts or desires as it sits on your office desk, or bookshelf. Your Bible can't write a religious book of its own. It's a book, not a sentient Being, as its Author is.

Purely on the basis of reason and logic, asserting that God and His word are identical is nonsensical. But such conflation of the two things leads inevitably to correspondingly irrational conclusions. Under this sort of thinking, the Bible may begin to be regarded as the Fourth Person of the Godhead, having its own divine power and traits of consciousness. What's worse, the Christian who takes up such an irrational conflation of God and His word, may grow content with knowing only God's word rather than God Himself, to grow satisfied that a knowledge of the truths of Bible, a book, is all that is necessary to knowing the Person who wrote it. This sort of thinking lends itself to a very dry, flat institutional sort of experience of God that is chiefly intellectual, denying a personal and direct experience of God.

For these reasons (and others unmentioned), I deny the conflation of the Bible with God. Doing so, however, does not mean Jesus is not The Truth, nor does it mean that the Bible does not contain truth statements. Asserting that it does is a sort of Strawman objection to what I've explained.
 
Tenchi said:
I'm not sure why you're misunderstanding my remarks so consistently, except that you are doing so willfully.

Is an autobiography identical to the person who wrote it? It's filled with truth about the author, revealing his character, personal philosophy, and history. Can you, though, have a conversation with the autobiography as you can with its author? No. Can the autobiography get up and make itself a cup of coffee, or drive down to the mall and do some shopping? No. But the author of the autobiography can. In the very same way, the revelation of God in His word is an "autobiography" of God. It is filled with truth about it's Author, revealing His character, His mind, and His purposes to us. But your Bible can't make a universe and then sustain it moment-by-moment. Your Bible doesn't have thoughts or desires as it sits on your office desk, or bookshelf. Your Bible can't write a religious book of its own. It's a book, not a sentient Being, as its Author is.

Purely on the basis of reason and logic, asserting that God and His word are identical is nonsensical. But such conflation of the two things leads inevitably to correspondingly irrational conclusions. Under this sort of thinking, the Bible may begin to be regarded as the Fourth Person of the Godhead, having its own divine power and traits of consciousness. What's worse, the Christian who takes up such an irrational conflation of God and His word, may grow content with knowing only God's word rather than God Himself, to grow satisfied that a knowledge of the truths of Bible, a book, is all that is necessary to knowing the Person who wrote it. This sort of thinking lends itself to a very dry, flat institutional sort of experience of God that is chiefly intellectual, denying a personal and direct experience of God.

For these reasons (and others unmentioned), I deny the conflation of the Bible with God. Doing so, however, does not mean Jesus is not The Truth, nor does it mean that the Bible does not contain truth statements. Asserting that it does is a sort of Strawman objection to what I've explained.
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I think it reflects a true belief that Jesus and the Bible are one and the same. I think they really believe that when the Bible says, "Trust in the Lord with all your heart", they think it means "Trust in what the Bible says with all your heart." Likewise, when the Bible says "Walk in the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh", they think it means "Obey the commandments in the Bible, and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh."

They do not realize that they are doing the same thing that Jesus chastized with the words, "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life." (Jn 5:39–40) I'm not saying this necessarily means they are lost, but it does indicate that they don't see that the Bible points to Jesus and not to itself.
 
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NewLifeInChrist said:
I think the really believe that when the Bible says, "Trust in the Lord with all your heart", they think it means "Trust in what the Bibel says with all your heart. Likewise, when the Bible says "Walk in the Spirit, and you will not fulfil the lusts of the flesh", they think it means "Obey the commandment in the Bible, and you will not fulfil the lusts of the flesh.

They do not realize that they are doing the same thing that Jesus chastized with the words, "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life." (Jn 5:39–40) I'm not saying this necessarily means they are lost, but it does indicate that they don't see that the Bible points to Jesus and not to itself.
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Exactly.
 
NewLifeInChrist said:
There are many in the faith plus works saves me crowd. You place yourself squarely among them. But even you must admit that you fall short of the righteousness and holiness that God requires of you, right? What do you do about that? Do you seek His forgiveness?
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How do we obtain mercy?
 
We don’t believe salvation by works sorry!

D for dogma or divinely revealed truth taught by the apostolic church! Matt 28:19

109. There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will.
110. There is a supernatural influence of God in the faculties of the soul which coincides in time with man’s free act of will.
111. For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary.
112. Internal supernatural grace is absolutely necessary for the beginning of faith and of salvation.
113. Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification.
114. The justified person is not able for his whole life long to avoid all sins, even venial sins,
without the special privilege of the grace of God.
118. Grace cannot be merited by natural works either de condigno or de congruo.
122. The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not
irresistible.

Thks

Most people who oppose and ridicule dogma actually believe about 90 percent of dogma!

Scratch my head!
 
donadams said:
We don’t believe salvation by works sorry!

D for dogma or divinely revealed truth taught by the apostolic church! Matt 28:19

109. There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will.
110. There is a supernatural influence of God in the faculties of the soul which coincides in time with man’s free act of will.
111. For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary.
112. Internal supernatural grace is absolutely necessary for the beginning of faith and of salvation.
113. Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification.
114. The justified person is not able for his whole life long to avoid all sins, even venial sins,
without the special privilege of the grace of God.
118. Grace cannot be merited by natural works either de condigno or de congruo.
122. The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not
irresistible.

Thks

Most people who oppose and ridicule dogma actually believe about 90 percent of dogma!

Scratch my head!
Click to expand...
I care very little for these few of apparently hundreds of things in your dogma. Of particular concern in the things posted here is the lack of understanding 1) that faith in Christ that leads to salvation is a human capability possessed by all humans, 2) that God draws all people to Himself, not just the ones He saves, 3) that salvation is here and now, not just in the future, and 4) there is no chance whatsoever for a justified person to avoid all sins for his whole life long.

The curious thing about all the objections to the charge of salvation by works is that all this grace that you point to is only effective for the ones who by the excercise of their free will prove they are worthy of it.
 
NewLifeInChrist said:
"saved by grace" refers to salvation. I gave an lol to Don Adams saying it doesn't.

If you have been saved, you have salvation. Or you could say, if you were saved, you are saved.
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I will be able to say "I am saved !" and "I have salvation !" after I hear my name read from the book of life, on the day of judgement.
 
Hopeful 2 said:
I will be able to say "I am saved !" and "I have salvation !" after I hear my name read from the book of life, on the day of judgement.
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I'm not sure those whose names are in the book will be read out loud, though we do know that those whose names are not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. I could be wrong though. Do you know of a verse that says they will be read out loud?

Why are you waiting until then? I can't think of any good reason.
 
NewLifeInChrist said:
This is confusing for sure... I do not understand why anyone who is wholly dependent on Jesus' forgiveness would turn his back on that dependency and declare that his rightness with God is because he does what is required of him.
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Nevertheless His sheep do become lost.
 
Faith alone?

NewLifeInChrist said:
For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. (1 Co 1:21)​

Answer: It pleases God to save those who believe.
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Do we need mercy after we are saved?
 
NewLifeInChrist said:
I care very little for these few of apparently hundreds of things in your dogma. Of particular concern in the things posted here is the lack of understanding 1) that faith in Christ that leads to salvation is a human capability possessed by all humans, 2) that God draws all people to Himself, not just the ones He saves, 3) that salvation is here and now, not just in the future, and 4) there is no chance whatsoever for a justified person to avoid all sins for his whole life long.

The curious thing about all the objections to the charge of salvation by works is that all this grace that you point to is only effective for the ones who by the excercise of their free will prove they are worthy of it.
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I can send you all 255 if you like

Faith in Christ is required! Jn 14:6
Yes God draws men

No grace and eternal life and union with Christ in his new covenant church is here and now
We are in the process of salvation not in heaven yet

Yes scripture says we participate
A short catechism!

Jn 3:16 ((believe in Christ))
Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 1 cor 16:13 gal 3:27 ((union with Christ by faith & baptism))
Jn 15:4 ((we must abide in Christ))
1 cor 13:2 (( charity & not by faith alone))
Phil 1:29 ((suffering not by faith alone))
Matt 25 Jn 15:5 phil 4:13 ((grace vivifies our works to be meritorious and salutary))
Matt 24:13 ((endure to the end to be saved))
Jn 5:29 ((good unto life & evil unto death))
Romans 8:17 2 Tim 2:12 ((glorified with Christ if we suffer with Him))
Rom 2:6 Rev 2: 19 ((reward for good works done in no no Christ & grace))
Thks
 
NewLifeInChrist said:
I do not understand why anyone who is wholly dependent on Jesus' forgiveness would turn his back on that dependency and declare that his rightness with God is because he does what is required of him.
Click to expand...

That’s why it’s called the obedience of faith.
 
Rodger that!

71. Jesus Christ is the True God and True Son of God.
72. Christ assumed a real body, not an apparent body.
73. Christ assumed not only a body but also a rational soul.
74. Christ was truly generated and born of a daughter of Adam, the Virgin Mary.
75. The Divine and the human natures are united hypostatically in Christ, that is, joined to each other in one Person.
76. Christ Incarnate is a single, that is, a sole Person. He is God and man at the same time.
77. The God-Logos is connected with the flesh by an inner, physical or substantial unification.
Christ is not the bearer of God, but is God really.
78. The human and the divine activities predicated of Christ in Holy Writ and in the Fathers may
not be divided between two persons or hypostases, the Man-Christ and the God-Logos, but must be attributed to the one Christ, the Logos become Flesh. It is the Divine Logos, who suffered in the flesh, was crucified, died, and rose again.
79. The Holy Virgin is the Mother of God since she truly bore the God-Logos become Flesh.
80. In the Hypostatic Union each of the two natures of Christ continues unimpaired,
untransformed and unmixed with the other.
81. Each of the two natures in Christ possesses its own natural will and its own natural mode of
operation.
82. The Hypostatic Union of Christ’s human nature with the Divine Logos took place at the
moment of conception.
83. The Hypostatic Union will never cease.
84. The Hypostatic Union was effected by the Three Divine Persons acting in common.
85. Only the Second Divine Person became Man.
86. Not only as God but also as man Jesus Christ is the natural Son of God.
87. The God-Man Jesus Christ is to be venerated with one single mode of Worship, the absolute
Worship of Latria which is due to God alone.
88. Christ’s Divine and Human characteristics and activities are to be predicated of the one
Word Incarnate.
89. Christ was free from all sin, from original sin as well as from all personal sin.
90. Christ’s human nature was passible (capable of sensation & suffering).
91. The Son of God became man in order to redeem men.
92. Fallen man cannot redeem himself.
93. The God-Man Jesus Christ is a High Priest.
94. Christ offered Himself on the Cross as a true and proper sacrifice.
95. Christ by His Sacrifice on the Cross has ransomed us and reconciled us with God.
96. Christ did not die for the predestined only.
97. Christ’s Atonement does not extend to the fallen angels.
98. Christ, through His Passion and Death, merited reward from God.
99. After His Death, Christ’s soul, which was separated from His Body, descended into the
underworld.
100. On the third day after His Death Christ rose gloriously from the dead.
101. Christ ascended Body and Soul into Heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father.
 
donadams said:
“You are saved”? Not according to scripture and Christ Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13

Are you born again also?
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Don,
Please do not misrepresent the CC.

We can know we are saved RIGHT NOW.
The verses you posted state that we have to endure till the end.

So are you saying we won't really know we're saved till the end and we have endured.....

Or are you saying we CANNOT know right not that we are saved?
(and then what happens in the future will happen, but what about for RIGHT NOW?)

Please clarify your understanding of this teaching.
 
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