NewLifeInChrist
Member
Not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh does not stop the flesh from having lusts.
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Bible Study Do we love the truth!
- Thread starter JLB
- Start date
NewLifeInChrist
Member
This line-by-line approach is getting unwieldy. So I will just reply to the main issue which is salvation by the works of the law which you promote in the highlighted text above.
Jesus sacrificed Himself and let the Father lay on Him the inquities of us all. He took His own blood into Heaven itself as an offering for sin, and by it He obtained eternal redemption, not for Himself, but for us. If God could have written a commandment that through obeying it people would obtain eternal life, then He would not have sacrificed His Son on the cross for our sins. Instead, He would have written the commandment and demanded that we obey it.
When you stray from resting all your hope in Christ for salvation and make salvation contingent on people performing their obligations to obey His commandments, then you are not obeying the gospel, you are not being Jesus' friend, and you have left the faith. If Jesus is in you when you do this, He does not leave you, but He lets you know that you must change your mind, and He will not stop correcting you until you comply. This is how He deals with every sin you commit if you're His Child.
Tenchi
Member
Your salvation is "up to you" only insofar as you choose to be saved. But your actual salvation is accomplished by God through Christ for you. All you can do is receive salvation from God (or not).
Acts 4:12
12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
As I already pointed out, your belief that your dentist can fix your tooth-cavity and your choosing to attend his office so that he might do so, does not actually fill the cavity in your tooth. The filling of your tooth-cavity the dentist must do; you can only sit in the dentist's chair and receive his work on your tooth. No amount of believing in your dentist's ability to fix your tooth, or choosing to have him fix your tooth actually fixes your tooth. As I already explained, you could believe as strongly as you're able that your dentist could fix your bad tooth and you could sit in his dental office for hours, or days, or weeks (if he let you) as a result, but your tooth won't be fixed unless and until your dentist - not you - fixes your tooth.
Likewise, your believing in Jesus as your Savior and Lord doesn't save you; Jesus saves you. Your belief simply puts you in the proper place to be saved by your Savior.
John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
I offer these verses because they explicitly exclude us as agents of our own spiritual birth. As I've noted, we are only recipients of God's gift of salvation, not contributors to it.
Which is simply to believe and receive. That's it. We can do nothing to add to, or earn, the gift of salvation.
I don't think you're reading all that I've posted to you.
Who said you were here to play "verse ping-pong"?
If you can't be bothered to look up the verse references I've given in support of my various statements, well, that's a problem on your end, not mine. In any case, I've posted both passages and explications of them in my last couple of posts to you and will do so a bit more in order to accommodate your unwillingness to do a little leg-work with your Bible.
To find the answer, spend a bit more time actually considering all that I've written to you in this thread.
*Sigh* I'm not sure what your patronizing snark here is supposed to accomplish... It doesn't cast you in a good light, you know.
I would urge you to take your own remark about twisting Scripture to heart. I've shown now a few times that the verses you're using in support of your view you've forced ideas into rather than extracted them out of the verses.
Have I written otherwise? No. Please read my remarks more carefully.
1 Corinthians 9:24-27 - 10:1-6
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 and all ate the same spiritual food;
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6 Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.
In context, what was the "prize" Paul had in mind in verse 24 of chapter 9? From what would he be "disqualified" if he didn't exert self-control over himself? Salvation? No. He goes on to explain in verse 5 of the next chapter that he wanted to avoid the bad example of the OT Jews who were "laid low in the wilderness" because with them God "was not well-pleased." It was pleasing God, then, that was the "prize" to which Paul aspired and from which he would be disqualified by not being self-controlled but behaving instead like the wilderness-wandering Israelites.
It seems to me very evident that Paul had in mind particularly the events of Numbers 13-14 which ended in the disbelieving Israelites wandering in the wilderness for forty years. Did God abandon His Chosen People during their wandering? No. He continued to supply for, and protect them, to be their God, even while they lived outside of the Promised Land they'd rejected in their unbelief. This comports well with the understanding that Paul did not have lost salvation in view in when he spoke of a lack of self-discipline "disqualifying" him. Again, he wrote only of God's displeasure with His wayward Chosen People, not God's rejection of them, which makes good sense from the man who wrote,
Romans 8:37-39
37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
and,
Philippians 1:6
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
and,
1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.
and,
1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
and,
1 Corinthians 1:7-9
7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
8 who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
A statement of feeling, not of the father, but of the son. No one is worthy of the faithfulness, and mercy, and grace of God. But this doesn't stop Him from being all of these things toward us, since it is in His nature to be this way. It's a very good thing that He is, our being as wayward and faithless as we often are (just like the Prodigal demonstrated).
And yet, he said in the pigpen, "I will arise and go to my FATHER."
Tenchi
Member
1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have - present tense - no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
Who is driving the "car" ?
Can your hands or feet force you to do something sinful ?
No.
Your vessel can only do what your mind allows it to do.
Is anyone who steals, or tells lies, or covets his neighbor's wife, a friend of Jesus ?
No, they are a servant of sin.
If your interpretation of 1 John 1:8 is true, then verses 7 and 9 are lies.
They say "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
And..."If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
So who am I to beleive ?
God's word through John, or your interpretation ?
If we can have all our sins washed away by the blood of Christ, we can say we have no sin.
Don't you walk in the light-God ?
If you answer "yes", you must realize that there is no sin in God.
Tenchi
Member
I've offered no "interpretation," I've simply let the verses speak for themselves.
1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have - present tense - no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
Believe what John wrote.
8 If we say that we have - present tense - no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
You ain't God. Obviously. Hence, John's words above.
Compare your interpretation to 1 John 2:3-6..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."
Your interpretation makes it seem that nobody has been washed of all sin by the blood of Christ and that nobody knows God.
Don't you think that is unreasonable ?
Fact is, verses 6, 8, and 10, of 1 John 1, deal with those walking in darkness...which is sin. (Pro 4:19)
Verses 5, 7, and 9, deal with those walking in the light, which is God in Whom is no sin.
It is written in an A-B, A-B, A-B, juxtapositional manner.
Just like Rom 8 is written.
I beleive what John wrote about those who walk in darkness-sin, (v 6,8,10), and I also beleive what he wrote about those who walk in the light-God. (v 5,7,9)
But those things don't cross over.
I am not God, but I do know Him.
I can tell I know Him because I keep His commandments and walk as Jesus would walk. (1 John 2:3-6)
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I hate long posts myself.
But this is a very important topic.
No one on this site believes in salvation by works.
Maybe you didn't read through my previous post well enough.
New LIfe....
The above just shows that the Atonement Theories must be understood.
Jesus took His blood to heaven as an offering for sin...
And thus obtained eternal redemption for us.
What did He redeem us from?
Why do we need redemption?
Why was it not enough that God write a commandment stating that if we obeyed it, we would be saved?
Isn't this what was tried in the OT, the OC or the Mosaic Covenant?
Why didn't it work?
Perhaps the answers to the above is the reason Jesus had to die in order to have our sins forgiven.
If you care to learn more about the atonement, I'll provide you with a link.
But, as to your last sentence....
God DOES demand that we obey Him.
I could post a list of rules we re to obey if you so wish.
But we ARE obligated to obey His commands!
The verses I provided mean nothing to you'
Then HOW do you know what you know?
Because it sounds nice to you?
Jesus didn't come here to be nice...He died for us.
He came to teach us how to get to heaven.
You're denying everything He taught.
Salvation is CONTINGENT ON OUR OBEDIENCE.
What does John 3:36 mean to you??
Tenchi
Member
It's not my "interpretation"; it's what John wrote, plain and simple.
1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have - currently, in the present - no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
??? Does John say this? No. He's the one who wrote the verse, not me. Clearly, he didn't think in this all-or-nothing, false dichotomy sort of way that you are.
This is a Strawman, both of what John wrote and of what I think about what he wrote.
Anyway, I don't have to defend John's plain statement. I just have to accept it. So do you. John's really blunt about what it means if you don't accept what he wrote:
1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
John doesn't agree with you. Neither does Paul. See Romans 7:18-24. Or Galatians 5:17. Or 1 Corinthians 3.
This isn't what John says about you:
1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
Last edited:
John also wrote this..." If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:" (v 6)
So who does that leave ?
It leaves those who walk in the light and have had all their sins cleansed by the blood of Christ (v 7)
The verses alternate between describing those who walk in the light-God, and those who walk in darkness-sin.
It is those who walk in darkness-sin who cannot say they have no sin, or that they have fellowship with God, (v6), or that they know God, (1 John 2:4).
Do you believe men can walk in both the dark and in the light at the same time ?
Why do you believe they can walk in God and sin at the same time ?
Sorry you think that way.
There is nothing to defend.
But you are seemingly unaware that he is referencing those who walk in darkness-sin when he wrote verses 6, 8, and 10.
Is that the same Paul that wrote 1 Cor 15:34..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame."
As I walk in the light-God instead of in the dark-sin,
only 1 John1:5, 7, and 9, apply to me.
The other verses apply to those who walk in darkness-sin.
Here are some more verse that don't apply to those walking in darkness-sin...
"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:3-6)
And..."He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him." (1 John 2:10)
And..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)
And..."And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us." (1 John 3:24)
And..."Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)
And..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." (1 John 5:18)
I adjure you in the name of Jesus Christ to abandon what you were taught about 1 John 1.
Some do walk in the light, which is God.
Tenchi
Member
False dichotomy.
The Bible describes a third option: A synthesis of John's words, a both-and understanding of what he wrote that corresponds to the rest of the NT.
1 John 1:8 describes this very sort of person, with whom John identified himself when he used the pronoun "we" three times in the verse and "us."
1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
You see? This verse is quite ironclad against your false view. Not only does it say that all believers in the present are guilty of sin, but the verse places John among those about whom this is true by the use of the above inclusive pronouns. So, unless you're willing to say that John, the single greatest contributor to the NT, was not a genuinely born-again believer, you will have to adjust your view or stand exposed by his words as one who is deceived.
I think those who "walk in the light" are those whose general tenor of living is Christ-centered and who are becoming progressively (not instantaneously) holier but who, on occasion, because they still retain a sin-nature (or, at least, the established habits of such a nature), yield to sinful temptation. Some Christians are farther along the continuum of growth in this regard than others. And so, you have in the NT the "carnal babes in Christ" of 1 Corinthians 3 and mature believers like Paul, Peter and Timothy, etc.
Nope. Wrong. See above.
The squirming you're having to do in order to deny the plain truth is...painful to watch.
Yup. Your point is?
No, verse 8 applies very particularly to you as one who denies he has any sin:
1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
This is you, Hopeful 2.
And also:
1 John 2:1
1 My little children (not unbelievers), I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins (present progressive tense), we (a pronoun that includes John) have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
and,
1 John 3:7-10
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
and, once more:
1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
Can you walk in the light-God and in darkness-sin at the same time ?
Neither can anyone else.
Walk in God or else walk in sin.
If one is walking in the light, their sins have been cleaned by the blood of Christ.
They have no sin.
Personally, I can't walk in God and sin at the same time.
I have been given the grace and mercy to remain walking n the light-God.
So have you.
Paul's point in 1 Cor 15:34, is, quit committing sin !
1 Cor 15:34..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame."
I confessed my sins, as 1 John 1:9 commands, and was cleansed of all my past sins by the blood of Jesus Christ; as per 1 John 1:7.
You should have emphasized the "any man" of 1 John 2:1.
They are not yet forgiven or converted.
They are the ones in need of the Advocate that we have already availed ourselves of.
The word practice has been added by the wicked accommodators of sin.
It isn't in the KJV of the bible.
Men don't need to murder 500 people to be called a murderer.
One is sufficient.
The seed dictates the fruit.
You are implying that as long as the apple seed doesn't make a practice of bearing figs, it is still an apple seed.
God's seed cannot ever bring forth liars, adulterers, thieves, or murderers.
Walk in God, who is the light, and you won't commit sin.
Tenchi
Member
1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Nope. See above.
1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Amen. To whom did Paul write the above? To fellow born-again believers. A strange thing to do if they were all sinlessly-perfect. But, of course, they weren't. Neither, in fact, was Paul (Romans 7:18-24). No, they were all as John wrote that they were in 1 John 1:8. They were, every one of them, people who could not say they had no sin:
1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
This fact isn't an excuse not to allow the Spirit to create greater and greater holiness within us who are saved, as Paul noted in the above verse that you cited. But the very fact he had to write such a verse to the Christians at Corinth indicates that saved people were sinning.
So? As John wrote, we all have - present tense - within us, things that God hates that we don't even recognize yet for the sins they are. Over time, as the Spirit obtains more and more control over us, and he fills us more and more completely and consistently, he reveals and removes these areas of darkness we don't yet see. But this process continues all throughout one's life, just as John, James Paul and Peter all indicated in their letters. And so, the believer who is progressively being freed of sin, always has more sin yet to be exposed by the Holy Spirit. Thus it is that John could say that he had sin in his life in the present though he was walking in the light, too.
Paul put this whole situation very succinctly:
Galatians 5:13-17
13 For you were called to freedom, brethren (Paul was speaking directly to fellow believers); only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh
(Why such a warning to those who were sinlessly-perfect?), but through love serve one another.
14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another. (Why would Paul write such a thing to brethren in the Lord if they were sinlessly-perfect? Obviously, because they weren't.)
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. (Paul here described a battle that rages within every believer between the flesh and the Spirit such that, at least at times, the believer could not do what they wanted to do. This doesn't fit at all with the false idea of sinless perfection. But it comports very well with what John wrote in 1 John 1:8)
Nope. This is flat-out false.
1 John 2:1
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
"My little children..."? "We have an Advocate..."? No, John is speaking to those with whom he shared a spiritual connection, even identifying himself with them in both their sinning and having an Advocate with the Father when this was the case.
Do you see how easily and grossly you've mishandled Scripture here in order to maintain your false doctrine? You've even had to deny the plain statement of John - again - in your preservation of what he has called a deception. Wow.
This is an entirely facile and deflective response to an insurmountable barrier to your false doctrine. It's very convenient to simply dismiss this passage which so clearly dissolves your error as the translation of "wicked accommodators of sin" but it's also very silly, too. No one is going to be persuaded by such an obviously self-serving ad hominem objection.
People aren't plants.
Walk in the Spirit, more precisely. Galatians 5:16, 25.
So true for those walking is darkness, but there is no sin in the light, where some do walk.
Then you do beleive that verse 7 and 9 are lies ?
He wrote it to everybody who has ever read it.
I wasn't a believer when I first read it.
Paul's Rom 7 narrative was of his pre-conversion life and unsuccessfully trying to be righteous by the Law.
There is no sin in God, in whom those in the light walk. (1 John 1:7)
Some there wouldn't be saved if they didn't heed Paul's exhortations.
But heeding them would result in perfectly obeying the Lord that bought them with His blood.
So now I can walk in the light, which is God, in Whom is no sin !
I can now, by the grace of God, identify myself in 1 John 2:3-6..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."
The people that 'know God' do not walk in the darkness-sin.
It is too bad that you know so much about walking in darkness-sin and so little about walking in the light-God.
There are two different kinds of life, you know.
So they don't fall for sin accommodating doctrines like the one you push.
His writing shows that it is possible to keep walking in the light-God.
Yep. those walking in the Spirit cannot do the things of the flesh !
Why can't you see that ?
That battle has been won by Jesus Christ in whom we in the light walk !
It is written..." And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
Those you say walk in darkness-sin, are NOT Christ's !
Of what use is an advocate if one is just going to go out and do the same things again ?
We have an Advocate, that we have used.
Others still need our Advocate.
They need to repent of sin and confess, and be washed clean by the blood of Christ, so they too can walk in God...the light.
I have been cleansed of all past sins, just as 1 John 1:7 said I could be.
I have decided to remain in the light-God wherein is no sin.
You can too.
Nice long words !
But the truth we all love is the truth Jesus said could free us from committing sin...in John 8:32-34.
Do you love that truth ?
No they aren't.
But if sons of Adam are reborn of God's seed, they won't display the traits, or fruit, of Adam anymore.
There is no sin in the Spirit, so walking in Him necessitates that we don't have any sin in us.
But you keep saying that is impossible !
Tenchi
Member
Nope. When you understand the verse, rather than denying it, as you've long been in the habit of doing, apparently, you will the deception you've taken up in your words above.
See? More of your contortions. I believe what John wrote in verse 8 about himself and all believers - you included (I hope) - which does not require thinking verses 7 and 9 are lies.
Not at first. Paul's original, intended audience were the believers in the church at Corinth. What he wrote applies more broadly than just to them, but the letter was written directly to them and for them, addressing their unique situation in particular their sinful conduct as children of God.
So? Paul clearly and repeatedly identified to whom he was writing in his letter to the Christians at Corinth calling them carnal, spiritually immature, contentious, partisan and selfish but also brethren, God's field and building, the temple of God and the Holy Spirit, and those who belonged to Christ. Just read chapter 3. That you read his letter to Christians as a non-Christian has no relevancy to the content of the letter.
No, it wasn't. This is another of the contortions of Scripture you throw out in defense of your false view of sinless perfection.
Romans 7:18-19
18 For I know (present tense) that nothing good dwells (present progressive) in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing (present tense) of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want (present tense), I do not do, but I practice (present tense) the very evil that I do not want.
Paul did not explain a past state-of-affairs here but one that was his current condition, indicated by the verb tenses he employed in these verses. As he wrote his letter to the believers at Rome, what he wrote in the above verses was the case. But this means Paul was not an all-perfected saint, which, of course, explains why you're so quick to flatly deny what is glaringly evident in the text.
No, there is no sin in God. But, obviously, none of us is God, though we walk in His light. To lay claim, then, to the sinless perfection of God is to be self-deceived and devoid of truth.
1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
This is so...weak and facile as to not warrant a response. See 1 Corinthians 3.
I walk in the light of the Sun but I'm not a Sun myself, burning with the heat and light of trillions of thermonuclear bombs. I walk in the shade of trees, but I'm not, therefore an oak, or a pine, or a birch tree. I walk in the wind of an approaching storm but this doesn't make me a thundercloud. Obviously.
Yes, right. They don't practice sin; they don't live in a lifestyle of sin. But they do sin, nonetheless. As John clearly stated:
1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Brother (I hope), I know more about walking in the light than you do, the one whom the apostle John said was devoid of truth in claiming sinless perfection. I make no such claim but in daily submission to the Holy Spirit have been brought by him in increasing degree into a holy, Christ-centered life. And I have taught other men to do the same for decades.
His words in the passage in Galatians 5 demonstrate that his born-again brethren in the province of Galatia were not walking well as children of God. And so, he warned them and encouraged them to better living. In doing so, Paul demolishes your sinless perfection error.
??? It's not I who cannot see, but you. Read what Paul actually wrote. He wrote exactly the opposite of what you've written above.
Galatians 5:17
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
The Galatian believers could NOT do the things they wanted to do as believers because of the war between their flesh and the Holy Spirit within them. This is why Paul had to warn them about not "devouring one another." If they had been walking in/by the Spirit properly, rather than merely living in/by the Spirit, such a warning from Paul would not have been necessary. But, as Paul explained, there's a war going on within every born-again person between their fleshly nature and their new Christ-nature given to them in the Person of the Holy Spirit. Consequently, they don't do as they should, yielding at times to their flesh rather than to the Spirit.
Nope. False. See above. Also:
1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Of what use is it for a parent to help their baby clamber along the edge of the couch since it is just going to plop down on its butt over and over again? Of what use is it for piano teacher to help a child to play musical scales since their fingers just trip and stumble over the keys again and again?
This isn't what John wrote. Every believer has an ongoing but ever-lessening need of their Advocate. See my last post.
I was a High School English teacher and I've been a writer for many years. This will come out in how and what I write.
I seem to love the Truth far more than you do. I say this because, in claiming sinless perfection, you are the self-deceived person in whom is no truth, as the apostle John declared:
1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Again, people aren't plants and the Holy Spirit and/or God's Truth isn't a seed. These agricultural metaphors are figures of speech, each pointing to something else that is far greater than they are.
I don't keep saying it; Scripture does. Your problem is with God's word, not me. See above.
You are saying then, that there is sin in God, who is the light.
I can't agree.
It isn't.
It can only apply to those walking in sin-darkness.
As there is no sin in God, who is the light of 1 John 1, they can say they have no sin.
They can also say they have fellowship with God, which those walking in darkness cannot say. (1 John 1:6)
They can also say they know God.
Which those walking in darkness cannot say. (1 John 2:3-6)
And, it helped them separate out the posers.
Adulterers are not Christians.
Neither are those who separate themselves according to their teachers, or go to unbelievers about civil matters between supposed believers.
He wrote to the church.
But not all of the audience were even in Christ.
You should have started with verse 5..."when we were in the flesh".
Past tense from when he was writing.
Then maybe you would have seen that Rom 7:23's plaint was answered by Rom 8:2, and Rom 7:24's plait was answered in Rom 6:6.
Paul was writing from a former perspective.
It can't be, for the reasons above.
If we are walking in God, there can't be any sin in us.
1 John 1:5..."This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."
Darkness is sin, as Proverbs 4:19 states.
Did our star send His Son to die for your sins ?
Ever read all the verses about us being "In Christ", or, In Him", or, In the Lord" ?
Are those verses just wasted on you ?
Here is one..."Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:" (Eph 1:1)
Are you in Christ Jesus ?
Now you are just making stuff up.
And still you defend it ?
How can you "know more about the light than I" but but can't affirm you are in the light ?
1 John 2:4 says..."He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
Take heed !
Jesus Christ instituted the holy church and the sacraments for salvation
Effects of faith & baptism!
Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Matt 28:19 faith & baptism
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 eph 4:30 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!
Faith and baptism are required Mk 16:16 eph 4:5
Faith alone even all faith avails NOTHING! 1 cor 13:2
Promise of God:
Sacred oath:
A promise or sacred oath made by God is called a sacrament:
A sacrament is also the fruit of a sacrifice, grace or the merits of Christ are fruit of His sacrifice on the cross!
Heb 8:8 better sacraments
Lk 1:72
Acts 2:39 referring to ez 36:25-27
Acts 1:4
Acts 2:33
Acts 13:23
Acts 13:32
Acts 26:6
Acts 26:7
Rom 1:2
2 Tim 1:1-2
2 pet 1:4
1 Jn 2:25 and many more!
Sacraments instituted by Christ applies His grace for the salvation of our souls!
It’s not a do it yourself religion!
It’s not a bible study!
It’s a covenant!
Not by “faith alone”
“Faith alone” aint biblical!
You may think “Accept Jesus Christ as you personal Lord and savior” is biblical but there is no such verse in your bible!
Faith and the sacraments in the church founded by the authority Christ on Peter and the apostles is biblical! Matt 16:18-19 Jn 20:21 eph 2:20
Faith and baptism is the biblical initiation into the new covenant and member is Christ and His holy church!
Psalm 51 Ez 36:25-27 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38
You cannot enter a covenant by “faith alone” must be a ritual outward sign!
2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!
Faith and baptism! Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38
Merits of christ’s passion, death, and precious blood are applied in the sacraments! Jn 1:16
Colossians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Matt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Rom 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
1 pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Heb 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Romans 5:5
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Lk 1: 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
There is only one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors is the new covenant body of Christ! Matt 1:18 & Jn 10:16 one fold
1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
Christ and His church are one: acts 9 why persecute me?
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Sacraments are the fruits of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ!
The holy sacrifice of Christ, His passion, blood, and death producing unlimited fruits of divine grace, actual and sanctifying grace! Jn 1:29 Jn 1:16-17 Jn 10:10
And they are applied to our souls in the church by faith and the seven sacraments!
“This promise” (sacred oath of God or sacrament) of the Father acts 2:38-39 with reference to ez 36:25-27 Also a mystery Mk 4:11 Eph 5:32 eph 6:19 1 Tim 3:9 3:16 Col 1:27 2:2 4:3
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.
Heb 7:21 For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
(Oath = sacrament)
Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Based on Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
A promise is a sacred oath or sacrament!
Baptismal regeneration is the promise of the Father for union in the new covenant!
The church and the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation
Better covenant on better promises
2 Timothy 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
Life of supernatural grace merited by Christ in His passion and death!
An oath to sacramental life in the new covenant in union with the mediator and communion with God, and the saints!
Sacred oath:
A promise or sacred oath made by God is called a sacrament:
A sacrament is also the fruit of a sacrifice, grace or the merits of Christ are fruit of His sacrifice on the cross!
Heb 8:8 better sacraments
Lk 1:72
Acts 2:39 referring to ez 36:25-27
Acts 1:4
Acts 2:33
Acts 13:23
Acts 13:32
Acts 26:6
Acts 26:7
Rom 1:2
2 Tim 1:1-2
2 pet 1:4
1 Jn 2:25 and many more!
Sacraments instituted by Christ applies His grace for the salvation of our souls!
It’s not a do it yourself religion!
It’s not a bible study!
It’s a covenant!
Not by “faith alone”
“Faith alone” aint biblical!
You may think “Accept Jesus Christ as you personal Lord and savior” is biblical but there is no such verse in your bible!
Faith and the sacraments in the church founded by the authority Christ on Peter and the apostles is biblical! Matt 16:18-19 Jn 20:21 eph 2:20
Faith and baptism is the biblical initiation into the new covenant and member is Christ and His holy church!
Psalm 51 Ez 36:25-27 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38
You cannot enter a covenant by “faith alone” must be a ritual outward sign!
2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!
Faith and baptism! Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38
Merits of christ’s passion, death, and precious blood are applied in the sacraments! Jn 1:16
Colossians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Matt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Rom 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
1 pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Heb 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Romans 5:5
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Lk 1: 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
There is only one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors is the new covenant body of Christ! Matt 1:18 & Jn 10:16 one fold
1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
Christ and His church are one: acts 9 why persecute me?
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Sacraments are the fruits of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ!
The holy sacrifice of Christ, His passion, blood, and death producing unlimited fruits of divine grace, actual and sanctifying grace! Jn 1:29 Jn 1:16-17 Jn 10:10
And they are applied to our souls in the church by faith and the seven sacraments!
“This promise” (sacred oath of God or sacrament) of the Father acts 2:38-39 with reference to ez 36:25-27 Also a mystery Mk 4:11 Eph 5:32 eph 6:19 1 Tim 3:9 3:16 Col 1:27 2:2 4:3
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.
Heb 7:21 For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
(Oath = sacrament)
Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Based on Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
A promise is a sacred oath or sacrament!
Baptismal regeneration is the promise of the Father for union in the new covenant!
The church and the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation
Better covenant on better promises
2 Timothy 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
Life of supernatural grace merited by Christ in His passion and death!
An oath to sacramental life in the new covenant in union with the mediator and communion with God, and the saints!