Bible Study Do we love the truth!

[JLB]

Yes. I am saved. I abide in Christ. I will endure to the end. I watch and pray. The law's requirements for righteousness are fulfilled in me. All these things are true for me because Jesus lives in me.

Amen.

His Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God.

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Romans 8:16

 

[Tenchi]

You are saying then, that there is sin in God, who is the light.
I can't agree.

I'm saying no such thing. This is your Strawman version of what I've put forward. Instead, I simply agree with the apostle John, the single greatest contributor to the NT:

1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

It can only apply to those walking in sin-darkness.
As there is no sin in God, who is the light of 1 John 1, they can say they have no sin.
They can also say they have fellowship with God, which those walking in darkness cannot say. (1 John 1:6)
They can also say they know God.
Which those walking in darkness cannot say. (1 John 2:3-6)

And yet, John said of himself that he had - present tense - sin and that to say that he did not would make him one in whom there was no truth. So, then, you will have to adjust your thinking to reflect what Scripture actually says, not what you want it to say or be the one of whom John wrote in 1 John 1:8.

Also, again, I can walk in the light of the Sun without being the Sun. Which is essentially what John wrote in 1 John 1:8.

And, it helped them separate out the posers.
Adulterers are not Christians.
Neither are those who separate themselves according to their teachers, or go to unbelievers about civil matters between supposed believers.

See? You're so far gone in your error that you've hardened into it such that you are now unable to see your error for what it is and God's Truth as it is. Paul was crystal clear in 1 Corinthians 3 that he was writing to sinful but also "in Christ" people. This isn't a debatable matter but the plain statement of his letter.

He wrote to the church.
But not all of the audience were even in Christ.

So? This doesn't do anything to dissolve the fact that Paul plainly addressed sinning believers, carnal, contentious, selfish, but in-Christ brethren.

1 Corinthians 3:1
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.

Like 1 John 1:8, there's no getting around the plain import of Paul's words here. Spirit-indwelt believers sin - and grossly, at times. To deny this is so is, as John wrote, to be deceived.

1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

You should have started with verse 5..."when we were in the flesh".
Past tense from when he was writing.
Then maybe you would have seen that Rom 7:23's plaint was answered by Rom 8:2, and Rom 7:24's plait was answered in Rom 6:6.
Paul was writing from a former perspective.

No, this slippery treatment of God's word won't work with someone who's not already embraced your error.

Romans 7:5-6
5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Paul's use of "were" pertains to what he described here: The Roman believers' release from the death-dealing condemnation of the Law. He does not say here that he was freed from all sin, having become incapable of it. Instead, Paul goes on to describe just the opposite, not about a past condition but of a present one:

Romans 7:15-19
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.

Very obviously, this is not a past condition Paul is describing here. That you refuse to acknowledge this isn't a testament to my misunderstanding Paul's plain meaning, but to your hardness and blindness to God's Truth - just as the apostle John described:

1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Now you are just making stuff up.

No. You're in denial of the truth.

And still you defend it ?

Yes, I defend walking in the light the biblical way.

How can you "know more about the light than I" but but can't affirm you are in the light ?

??? This is another of your Strawman cartoons of my views. I have nowhere denied that I "walk in the light" of God's Truth and under the control of His Spirit. But it is in no small part because you think in these Strawman terms, unable to take in what others are actually saying to you, jumping to unwarranted conclusions about them, repeatedly denying the plain declaration of God's word, too, that I can say that I do know more, demonstrably, about the Light than you do.

1 John 2:4 says..."He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
Take heed !

Right back at you!

1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

 

[donadams]

Amen.

His Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God.

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Romans 8:16

No one is doubting the child of God part!

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Who is driving the "car" ?
Can your hands or feet force you to do something sinful ?
No.
Your vessel can only do what your mind allows it to do.

Is anyone who steals, or tells lies, or covets his neighbor's wife, a friend of Jesus ?
No, they are a servant of sin.

Due to the misunderstandings of 1 John 1:8-10 reaching the tipping point, I decided to break out my Greek Grammar and re-study the chapter on the subjunctive mood, paying close attention to John's use in those three verses.

Here is the Greek text with literal translation and morphology...

8	ἐὰν	εἴπωμεν	ὅτι	ἁμαρτίαν	οὐκ	ἔχομεν,	ἑαυτοὺς	πλανῶμεν	καὶ	ἡ
	If	we might say	that	sin	not	we have	ourselves	we deceive	and	the
	CAC	VAAS1P	CSC	NASF	BN	VPAI1P	RF1APM	VPAI1P	CLN	DNSF

ἀλήθεια	οὐκ	ἔστιν	ἐν	ἡμῖν	.	9	ἐὰν	ὁμολογῶμεν	τὰς	ἁμαρτίας	ἡμῶν,
truth	not	is	in	us			If	we might confess	the	sins	of us
NNSF	BN	VPAI3S	P	RP1DP			CAC	VPAS1P	DAPF	NAPF	RP1GP

πιστός	ἐστιν	καὶ	δίκαιος,	ἵνα	ἀφῇ	ἡμῖν	τὰς	ἁμαρτίας	καὶ
trustful	he is	and	right	that	he might send off	to us	the	sins	and
JNSM	VPAI3S	CLN	JNSM	CAP	VAAS3S	RP1DP	DAPF	NAPF	CLN

καθαρίσῃ	ἡμᾶς	ἀπὸ	πάσης	ἀδικίας	.	10	ἐὰν	εἴπωμεν	ὅτι	οὐχ
might clean	us	from	all	unright			If	we might say	that	not
VAAS3S	RP1AP	P	JGSF	NGSF			CAC	VAAS1P	CSC	BN

ἡμαρτήκαμεν,	ψεύστην	ποιοῦμεν	αὐτὸν	καὶ	ὁ	λόγος	αὐτοῦ	οὐκ
we have sinned	liar	we make	him	and	the	word	of him	not
VRAI1P	NASM	VPAI1P	RP3ASM	CLN	DNSM	NNSM	RP3GSM	BN

ἔστιν	ἐν	ἡμῖν	.
is	in	us
VPAI3S	P	RP1DP

Aland, K., Black, M., Martini, C. M., Metzger, B. M., Robinson, M. A., & Wikgren, A. (1993). The Greek New Testament, Fourth Revised Edition (Interlinear with Morphology) (1 Jn 1:8–10). Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft.

Notice that all the subjunctives are Aorist Tense (bold) except the one instance in Present Tense (bold underline) at the beginning of verse 9. Aorist Subjunctives indicate punctiliar action, meaning action performed in one act. Present Subjunctives indicate continuous action.

The time of action of Subjunctive Verbs is not "past time" for Aorist Tense and "present time" for Present Tense since "time of action" follows the verb only in the Indicative Mood. Therefore, the time of action for Subjunctive Mood verbs is consistent with the timing of the main verb of the sentence.

All the Subjunctives preceeded by "ἐὰν" (bold) indicate a probable future condition. The one Subjunctive in this passage preceeded by "ἵνα" (bold underline) expresses purpose.

All the other verbs in this passage except one are Present Tense verbs (green bold), indicating continuous action in present time. The one other verb in this passage (verse 10) is in the Perfect Tense (red Bold), indicating action in past time that results in a state of being, with the emphasis on the current state of being.

Putting all this together, we can say the following...

Verse 8... Anyone who makes a declaration that at the present time they possess no sin is at the present time deceiving themselves.

Verse 9... Anyone who continually acknowledges his sins is the benificiary of His faithful and righteous single act of purification that removed all guilt.

Verse 10... Anyone who makes a declaration that their sin did not create a state of being that persists to the present is at the present time making Him out to be a liar, and His truth is not in them at the current time.

So, this kills two birds with one stone. First Bird: the false doctrine of salvation by works (i.e., that forgiveness is withheld until you straighten up and fly right). Bird two: the false doctrine of sinless perfection (i.e., that the flesh, with it's sins and passions died when a person is saved).

 

[Hopeful 2]

I'm saying no such thing. This is your Strawman version of what I've put forward. Instead, I simply agree with the apostle John, the single greatest contributor to the NT:1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

If you are not saying there is sin in Christ, God, or the light, you are saying that nobody walks in the light.
If nobody can honestly say they have so sin, then not one soul is in God.

And yet, John said of himself that he had - present tense - sin and that to say that he did not would make him one in whom there was no truth. So, then, you will have to adjust your thinking to reflect what Scripture actually says, not what you want it to say or be the one of whom John wrote in 1 John 1:8.

"IF" we walk in the darkness-sin, we can neither say we have fellowship with God or that we have no sin.
"IF" we walk in the light-God, we can say both that we have fellowship with God and that we have so sin.

See? You're so far gone in your error that you've hardened into it such that you are now unable to see your error for what it is and God's Truth as it is. Paul was crystal clear in 1 Corinthians 3 that he was writing to sinful but also "in Christ" people. This isn't a debatable matter but the plain statement of his letter.

Jesus said, in John 8:32-34 that the truth could free us from committing sin.
Your POV manifests no knowledge of those verses.
Those that love the truth have been freed from service to sin.

1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

It is written..."He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
(1 John 2:4)
Your walkers in darkness-sin are liars, and the truth is not in them.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Due to the misunderstandings of 1 John 1:8-10 reaching the tipping point, I decided to break out my Greek Grammar and re-study the chapter on the subjunctive mood, paying close attention to John's use in those three verses.

Here is the Greek text with literal translation and morphology...

8	ἐὰν	εἴπωμεν	ὅτι	ἁμαρτίαν	οὐκ	ἔχομεν,	ἑαυτοὺς	πλανῶμεν	καὶ	ἡ
	If	we might say	that	sin	not	we have	ourselves	we deceive	and	the
	CAC	VAAS1P	CSC	NASF	BN	VPAI1P	RF1APM	VPAI1P	CLN	DNSF

ἀλήθεια	οὐκ	ἔστιν	ἐν	ἡμῖν	.	9	ἐὰν	ὁμολογῶμεν	τὰς	ἁμαρτίας	ἡμῶν,
truth	not	is	in	us			If	we might confess	the	sins	of us
NNSF	BN	VPAI3S	P	RP1DP			CAC	VPAS1P	DAPF	NAPF	RP1GP

πιστός	ἐστιν	καὶ	δίκαιος,	ἵνα	ἀφῇ	ἡμῖν	τὰς	ἁμαρτίας	καὶ
trustful	he is	and	right	that	he might send off	to us	the	sins	and
JNSM	VPAI3S	CLN	JNSM	CAP	VAAS3S	RP1DP	DAPF	NAPF	CLN

καθαρίσῃ	ἡμᾶς	ἀπὸ	πάσης	ἀδικίας	.	10	ἐὰν	εἴπωμεν	ὅτι	οὐχ
might clean	us	from	all	unright			If	we might say	that	not
VAAS3S	RP1AP	P	JGSF	NGSF			CAC	VAAS1P	CSC	BN

ἡμαρτήκαμεν,	ψεύστην	ποιοῦμεν	αὐτὸν	καὶ	ὁ	λόγος	αὐτοῦ	οὐκ
we have sinned	liar	we make	him	and	the	word	of him	not
VRAI1P	NASM	VPAI1P	RP3ASM	CLN	DNSM	NNSM	RP3GSM	BN

ἔστιν	ἐν	ἡμῖν	.
is	in	us
VPAI3S	P	RP1DP

Aland, K., Black, M., Martini, C. M., Metzger, B. M., Robinson, M. A., & Wikgren, A. (1993). The Greek New Testament, Fourth Revised Edition (Interlinear with Morphology) (1 Jn 1:8–10). Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft.

Notice that all the subjunctives are Aorist Tense (bold) except the one instance in Present Tense (bold underline) at the beginning of verse 9. Aorist Subjunctives indicate punctiliar action, meaning action performed in one act. Present Subjunctives indicate continuous action.

The time of action of Subjunctive Verbs is not "past time" for Aorist Tense and "present time" for Present Tense since "time of action" follows the verb only in the Indicative Mood. Therefore, the time of action for Subjunctive Mood verbs is consistent with the timing of the main verb of the sentence.

All the Subjunctives preceeded by "ἐὰν" (bold) indicate a probable future condition. The one Subjunctive in this passage preceeded by "ἵνα" (bold underline) expresses purpose.

All the other verbs in this passage except one are Present Tense verbs (green bold), indicating continuous action in present time. The one other verb in this passage (verse 10) is in the Perfect Tense (red Bold), indicating action in past time that results in a state of being, with the emphasis on the current state of being.

Putting all this together, we can say the following...

Verse 8... Anyone who makes a declaration that at the present time they possess no sin is at the present time deceiving themselves.

Verse 9... Anyone who continually acknowledges his sins is the benificiary of His faithful and righteous single act of purification that removed all guilt.

Verse 10... Anyone who makes a declaration that their sin did not create a state of being that persists to the present is at the present time making Him out to be a liar, and His truth is not in them at the current time.

So, this kills two birds with one stone. First Bird: the false doctrine of salvation by works (i.e., that forgiveness is withheld until you straighten up and fly right). Bird two: the false doctrine of sinless perfection (i.e., that the flesh, with it's sins and passions died when a person is saved).

Don't waste your time studying Greek.
It is written in English !
Like this..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:3-6)

We have a choice here.
Keep the commandments and know Him, or, commit sin and be a liar who doesn't know Him.
The truth is only in those who obey Him.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

No one on this site believes in salvation by works.
Maybe you didn't read through my previous post well enough.

Maybe I misread the following things you said. They are the kind of things people say who think salvation is earned by doing good and lost by not doing good. But now that I know there are really people like Hopeful 2 who deny that they commit any sins, I do concede that your comments could be in line with the false doctrine of sinless perfection. Maybe you could clarify.

Are we supposed to obey the Son or not?​

If we do NOT obey Him, are we still saved?​

​

If we sin​

Are we obeying God?​

​

If we don't obey God​

Are we saved?​

​

Read every time Jesus spoke about not obeying Him.​

He said that IF we follow His commandments we are His friends.​

​

What commandments?​

What if we don't follow them?​

Are we still His friend?​

New LIfe....
The above just shows that the Atonement Theories must be understood.
Jesus took His blood to heaven as an offering for sin...
And thus obtained eternal redemption for us.
What did He redeem us from?
Why do we need redemption?
Why was it not enough that God write a commandment stating that if we obeyed it, we would be saved?
Isn't this what was tried in the OT, the OC or the Mosaic Covenant?
Why didn't it work?

It didn't work because of the weakness of the flesh (Ro 8:3).

Perhaps the answers to the above is the reason Jesus had to die in order to have our sins forgiven.
If you care to learn more about the atonement, I'll provide you with a link.

Please don't. I don't follow links.

But, as to your last sentence....
God DOES demand that we obey Him.
I could post a list of rules we re to obey if you so wish.

Yes, and of course we don't always do it. That's why we all need forgiveness.

But we ARE obligated to obey His commands! The verses I provided mean nothing to you'

And what happens when we don't? Salvation by works people say we become lost. Sinless perfection people say it means we were never saved. People who trust in Christ say there is no condemnation. What do you say?

Then HOW do you know what you know?
Because it sounds nice to you?

You're probably not going to believe this, but I have an intimate personal relationship with the Lord God Almighty. I learned everyting I know to be true from Him. Trusting Him is the only way to know these things. And trusting His warnings about false doctrine is the best way to not fall victim to it.

Jesus didn't come here to be nice...He died for us.
He came to teach us how to get to heaven.
You're denying everything He taught.

No, not everything.

Salvation is CONTINGENT ON OUR OBEDIENCE.

I thought you said, "No one on this site believes in salvation by works".

What does John 3:36 mean to you??

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. (Jn 3:36 NKJV)​

It means what it says, but there is a bit more information for us in the original Greek language version.

The first instance of "believe" is "πιστεύω". It means, "to believe to the extent of complete trust and reliance—‘to believe in, to have confidence in, to have faith in, to trust, faith, trust.’" [Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. In Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains]

The second instance of "believe" is "ἀπειθέω". In a general sense, it can mean "unwillingness or refusal to comply with the demands of some authority—‘to disobey, disobedience’" [Louw-Nida]. But, simply applying the general sense of the word does not do justice in this context because in the NT the word specifically means, "to refuse to believe the Christian message—‘to refuse to be a believer, to reject the Christian message, to refuse to believe’" [Louw Nida]. This is why the better translations adopt the specific meaning instead of the general meaning.

• He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. [The New King James Version (Jn 3:36). (1982). Thomas Nelson.]
• Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them. [The New International Version (Jn 3:36). (2011). Zondervan.]
• The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him. [The Holy Bible: Holman Christian standard version. (Jn 3:36). (2009). Holman Bible Publishers.]
• he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him. [Young, R. (1997). Young’s Literal Translation (Jn 3:36). Logos Bible Software.]

 

[Tenchi]

If you are not saying there is sin in Christ, God, or the light, you are saying that nobody walks in the light.
If nobody can honestly say they have so sin, then not one soul is in God.

This is a false dichotomy born of your sinless-perfection error. In fact, it is this either/or thinking rather than the biblical both/and state-of-affairs described in God's word that is at the core of your error. As Paul took pains to describe from his own life, the born-again person has two natures at war within them so that they "cannot do the things that you would." (Galatians 5:17; Romans 7:18-24). Only so long as the born-again person walks daily under the control of the Holy Spirit, in conscious, regular submission to him yielding up their own will and way to his, does the Christ-nature of the Spirit overtake and transform those whom he has made his "temple" (1 Corinthians 3:16; 1 Corinthians 6:19-20).

And so, we read of the carnal "in-Christ" Christians of Paul's first letter to the Corinthians (1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6, 11); we read of the Christians in the province of Galatia being drawn into fleshly law-keeping (Galatians 3:1-3); we read of the Christians at Rome who were ignorant of their union with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection, acting hypocritically, careless of the sensitivities of their weaker brethren (Romans 2, 6, 14), etc.; we read in John's Revelation of the seven churches of Asia Minor, only one of which escaped the severe criticism of God (Revelation 2-3). And so on.

"IF" we walk in the darkness-sin, we can neither say we have fellowship with God or that we have no sin.
"IF" we walk in the light-God, we can say both that we have fellowship with God and that we have so sin.

Yes, if my practice each day, if the general tenor of my living, is to live a life of sin, especially in the complete absence of the life and work of the Holy Spirit within me, I cannot say I walk in the light. Obviously. But I can certainly be indwelt by the Holy Spirit and find myself at war within after the manner described in Scripture and sometimes collapsing into sin (Galatians 5:17, Romans 7:18-24). And so, in recognition of this fact, the apostle John wrote:

1 John 1:8
8 If we (John included) say that we have (present tense) no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

and,

1 John 2:1
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we (John included) have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

Jesus said, in John 8:32-34 that the truth could free us from committing sin.
Your POV manifests no knowledge of those verses.
Those that love the truth have been freed from service to sin.

Maybe it makes you feel better to think there are portions of Scripture about which I'm ignorant, but the truth is that I'm quite aware of what's in the Gospel of John. This knowledge doesn't alter my view at all, however, but actually strengthens it.

John 8:32-36
32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

What did Jesus mean, here? Was he talking about mere true knowledge? No, as he goes on to say, "if the Son will make you free, you will be free indeed" (vs. 36) By "the truth" Jesus meant himself, the Way, the Truth, and the Life (John 14:6). From what would he make his Jewish listeners free?

33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35 "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

In what way could Jesus make his Jewish audience free from sin? They had the God-given Law of Moses and its sacrificial system by which they identified, and atoned for, their sin. From what did they need, then, to be free? Well, from a number of things:

1.) The penalty of sin.
2.) The power of sin.
3.) The condemnation and death-bringing effect of the Law.

By trusting in Christ as their Savior and yielding to him as their Lord (Romans 10:9-10), the Jews could interact with God under a "new and living way" (Hebrews 10:19-20), grounded in the Person of Christ, not in good works, in rule-keeping, or in self-effort. Free of futile, legalistic rule-keeping, of the condemnation of the Law which no one can keep perfectly, those "in Christ" find acceptance with God, they are declared fully justified by Him, because they have had the perfect righteousness of Christ imputed to them. From such people the impossible burden of keeping God's Law perfectly (God will accept nothing less) has been lifted, their righteousness located now in a Person, not in their performance.

Galatians 3:23-27
23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.
24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:21
21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Romans 7:6
6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

Because the born-again person is accepted by God on the basis of their being "in Christ" and not on the basis of their good works, they are liberated from the legalistic demand of the sinless perfection under which you labor Hopeful 2, and with which you want to burden others.

Anyway, it's within the context of these things that I understand Christ's words in John 8. And so, I see them through a very different lens than the sinless-perfection lens that seems to color everything you read in Scripture.

It is written..."He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
(1 John 2:4)
Your walkers in darkness-sin are liars, and the truth is not in them.

But, you see, this is just a Strawman of the actual perspective that I hold. Your version of what I believe is reduced down to this silly cartoon of my view in order that you might easily knock it over and feel that you've won the argument. You haven't actually dealt with my view, however, only your odd and weak version of it.

Worse, though, is how, in thinking in your inflexible and unbiblical either/or way, you've not only blinded yourself to the truth but have revealed that you are one in whom the truth does not dwell.

1 John 1:8
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Jesus Christ instituted the holy church and the sacraments for salvation

There are a bunch of misconceptions that support these 11 words. The main two are...

First, the universal church is not an institution. It is a spiritual house incorporating under one Head (who is Christ) every person who is made holy (i.e., the holy ones, the saints) by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The universal church is holy because the Holy One presides over it and only the holies are in it.

Second, the two sacraments that Jesus left us (baptism and the Lord's supper) do not confer salvation. They are only a shaddow of the real things that do confer salvation.

Baptism: Being sprinkled with water or being dunked in water, no matter how special that water is, doesn't do anything. But it pictures the real thing that happens when we first put our trust in Christ... that is, we died to sin together with Christ, were were burried together with Christ (dunked), and we were raise from the dead together with Christ, with the real effect that we now possess the eternal life that exists only in Him. Sprinkling doesn't even get the imagery right.​

​

Lord's Supper: Eating some crackers and drinking some wine, no matter how special they are, doesn't do anything. Jesus Himself pointed out that what a person eats goes in the mouth and comes out the other end. But what it pictures is the real thing that happened... Jesus gave His body and His blood for our sins. When we internalize His sacrifice of Himself for our sins, resting all our weight on His broad shoulders, He saves us from the penalties of our sins and comes to live in our hearts. Whenever we participate in the Lord's Supper in church (or elsewhere), it serves as a reminder of His death for our sins and our complete dependence on Him for our salvation.​

Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Matt 28:19 faith & baptism
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 eph 4:30 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

Faith and baptism are required Mk 16:16 eph 4:5

Faith alone even all faith avails NOTHING! 1 cor 13:2

There is much to say about these verses you have referenced. But I don't have the patience to look them up individually, try to infer the meaning you are giving to them, then form a response. I will just say generally that baptism with the Holy Spirit (as opposed to baptism with water), which is the kind of baptism that only Jesus performs, is the real thing that confers eternal life. Thinking that being baptized with water confers eternal life misses the mark substantially.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Promise of God:
Sacred oath:
A promise or sacred oath made by God is called a sacrament:
A sacrament is also the fruit of a sacrifice, grace or the merits of Christ are fruit of His sacrifice on the cross!

Heb 8:8 better sacraments
Lk 1:72
Acts 2:39 referring to ez 36:25-27
Acts 1:4
Acts 2:33
Acts 13:23
Acts 13:32
Acts 26:6
Acts 26:7
Rom 1:2
2 Tim 1:1-2
2 pet 1:4
1 Jn 2:25 and many more!

Referencing verses that have the word, "promise" in them does not constitute an argument.

Sacraments instituted by Christ applies His grace for the salvation of our souls!

It’s not a do it yourself religion!
It’s not a bible study!

It’s a covenant!

Not by “faith alone”
“Faith alone” aint biblical!

This is a new twist that I have never considered before. Is it possible that you are saying salvation comes, not by trusting in Christ that all your sins are forgiven, but by trusting in the institution He created plus participation in its sacraments? If so, this opens up a whole new world to me.

You may think “Accept Jesus Christ as you personal Lord and savior” is biblical but there is no such verse in your bible!

Yeah, that phrase needs a few tweaks.

Faith and the sacraments in the church founded by the authority Christ on Peter and the apostles is biblical! Matt 16:18-19 Jn 20:21 eph 2:20

Faith and baptism is the biblical initiation into the new covenant and member is Christ and His holy church!

Psalm 51 Ez 36:25-27 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

I've already addressed these comments.

You cannot enter a covenant by “faith alone” must be a ritual outward sign!

Unlike the old covenant, the new covenant is all about what God does.

33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more. (Je 31:33–34)​

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Nothing here is about baptism

The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!

The real thing is, but the physical symbol is not

Faith and baptism! Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

The Bible requires (symbolic) water baptism be performed on a person who has faith in Christ. Why do y'all ignore that requirement?

Merits of christ’s passion, death, and precious blood are applied in the sacraments! Jn 1:16

This verse has nothing to do with sacraments. I see a pattern developing. Every verse that speaks of the benefits of Christ must be talking about sacraments because participating in sacraments is how we obtain those benefits, right?

Colossians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Pattern continues.

Matt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Same

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Pattern repeated... But "calling on the name of the Lord" is what actually washes away sins (i.e., because His response is to forgive you and save you from the penalties for your sins).

Rom 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

pattern repeated

1 pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

same pattern

Heb 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Same pattern

Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

???

Romans 5:5
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Sacraments? Same pattern?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Same (but this verse is not about water baptism, but Spirit baptism).

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Same (but this verse is not talking about water baptism)

Lk 1: 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

Same pattern

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

Same Pattern

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

Same

There is only one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors is the new covenant body of Christ! Matt 1:18 & Jn 10:16 one fold

Supports my new found theory (if you confirm it).

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Christ and His church are one: acts 9 why persecute me?

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Sacraments are the fruits of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ!

The holy sacrifice of Christ, His passion, blood, and death producing unlimited fruits of divine grace, actual and sanctifying grace! Jn 1:29 Jn 1:16-17 Jn 10:10
And they are applied to our souls in the church by faith and the seven sacraments!



“This promise” (sacred oath of God or sacrament) of the Father acts 2:38-39 with reference to ez 36:25-27 Also a mystery Mk 4:11 Eph 5:32 eph 6:19 1 Tim 3:9 3:16 Col 1:27 2:2 4:3

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.

Heb 7:21 For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
(Oath = sacrament)

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Based on Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:


A promise is a sacred oath or sacrament!
Baptismal regeneration is the promise of the Father for union in the new covenant!

The church and the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation

Better covenant on better promises

2 Timothy 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

Life of supernatural grace merited by Christ in His passion and death!

An oath to sacramental life in the new covenant in union with the mediator and communion with God, and the saints!

I don't have time to look at all these, sorry.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Don't waste your time studying Greek.
It is written in English !

Yeah, like you don't know that the original language of the New Testament is Koine Greek?

Like this..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:3-6)

We have a choice here.
Keep the commandments and know Him, or, commit sin and be a liar who doesn't know Him.
The truth is only in those who obey Him.

You have a mix of two false doctrines... the false doctrine of sinless perfection, and the false doctrine of salvation by works. Due to the stiffness of your answers and your failure to address the underlying issues I and others have raised, I have concluded that you are probably doing all this using AI to stir up trouble. Even if you are not, I have grown weary of the one-sided debates. Don't bother responding for my benefit because I will not see it.

 

[Hopeful 2]

This is a false dichotomy born of your sinless-perfection error. In fact, it is this either/or thinking rather than the biblical both/and state-of-affairs described in God's word that is at the core of your error. As Paul took pains to describe from his own life, the born-again person has two natures at war within them so that they "cannot do the things that you would." (Galatians 5:17; Romans 7:18-24). Only so long as the born-again person walks daily under the control of the Holy Spirit, in conscious, regular submission to him yielding up their own will and way to his, does the Christ-nature of the Spirit overtake and transform those whom he has made his "temple" (1 Corinthians 3:16; 1 Corinthians 6:19-20).

And so, we read of the carnal "in-Christ" Christians of Paul's first letter to the Corinthians (1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6, 11); we read of the Christians in the province of Galatia being drawn into fleshly law-keeping (Galatians 3:1-3); we read of the Christians at Rome who were ignorant of their union with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection, acting hypocritically, careless of the sensitivities of their weaker brethren (Romans 2, 6, 14), etc.; we read in John's Revelation of the seven churches of Asia Minor, only one of which escaped the severe criticism of God (Revelation 2-3). And so on.



Yes, if my practice each day, if the general tenor of my living, is to live a life of sin, especially in the complete absence of the life and work of the Holy Spirit within me, I cannot say I walk in the light. Obviously. But I can certainly be indwelt by the Holy Spirit and find myself at war within after the manner described in Scripture and sometimes collapsing into sin (Galatians 5:17, Romans 7:18-24). And so, in recognition of this fact, the apostle John wrote:

1 John 1:8
8 If we (John included) say that we have (present tense) no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

and,

1 John 2:1
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we (John included) have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;



Maybe it makes you feel better to think there are portions of Scripture about which I'm ignorant, but the truth is that I'm quite aware of what's in the Gospel of John. This knowledge doesn't alter my view at all, however, but actually strengthens it.

John 8:32-36
32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

What did Jesus mean, here? Was he talking about mere true knowledge? No, as he goes on to say, "if the Son will make you free, you will be free indeed" (vs. 36) By "the truth" Jesus meant himself, the Way, the Truth, and the Life (John 14:6). From what would he make his Jewish listeners free?

33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35 "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

In what way could Jesus make his Jewish audience free from sin? They had the God-given Law of Moses and its sacrificial system by which they identified, and atoned for, their sin. From what did they need, then, to be free? Well, from a number of things:

1.) The penalty of sin.
2.) The power of sin.
3.) The condemnation and death-bringing effect of the Law.

By trusting in Christ as their Savior and yielding to him as their Lord (Romans 10:9-10), the Jews could interact with God under a "new and living way" (Hebrews 10:19-20), grounded in the Person of Christ, not in good works, in rule-keeping, or in self-effort. Free of futile, legalistic rule-keeping, of the condemnation of the Law which no one can keep perfectly, those "in Christ" find acceptance with God, they are declared fully justified by Him, because they have had the perfect righteousness of Christ imputed to them. From such people the impossible burden of keeping God's Law perfectly (God will accept nothing less) has been lifted, their righteousness located now in a Person, not in their performance.

Galatians 3:23-27
23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.
24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:21
21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Romans 7:6
6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

Because the born-again person is accepted by God on the basis of their being "in Christ" and not on the basis of their good works, they are liberated from the legalistic demand of the sinless perfection under which you labor Hopeful 2, and with which you want to burden others.

Anyway, it's within the context of these things that I understand Christ's words in John 8. And so, I see them through a very different lens than the sinless-perfection lens that seems to color everything you read in Scripture.



But, you see, this is just a Strawman of the actual perspective that I hold. Your version of what I believe is reduced down to this silly cartoon of my view in order that you might easily knock it over and feel that you've won the argument. You haven't actually dealt with my view, however, only your odd and weak version of it.

Worse, though, is how, in thinking in your inflexible and unbiblical either/or way, you've not only blinded yourself to the truth but have revealed that you are one in whom the truth does not dwell.

1 John 1:8
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If nobody is walking in the light-God, then everybody is walking in the darkness-sin.
And none shall be saved on the day of judgement.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yeah, like you don't know that the original language of the New Testament is Koine Greek?

I read and study in English.

You have a mix of two false doctrines... the false doctrine of sinless perfection, and the false doctrine of salvation by works. Due to the stiffness of your answers and your failure to address the underlying issues I and others have raised, I have concluded that you are probably doing all this using AI to stir up trouble. Even if you are not, I have grown weary of the one-sided debates. Don't bother responding for my benefit because I will not see it.

I don't use Ai.
I use the gift of the Holy Ghost that is given only to the truly repentant, who are the only ones in Christ.

 

[Tenchi]

If nobody is walking in the light-God, then everybody is walking in the darkness-sin.
And none shall be saved on the day of judgement.

??? Repeating a mistaken idea won't make it less mistaken. As I've explained, this is a false dichotomy.

 

[GodsGrace]

Maybe I misread the following things you said. They are the kind of things people say who think salvation is earned by doing good and lost by not doing good. But now that I know there are really people like Hopeful 2 who deny that they commit any sins, I do concede that your comments could be in line with the false doctrine of sinless perfection. Maybe you could clarify.

Are we supposed to obey the Son or not?​

If we do NOT obey Him, are we still saved?​

​

If we sin​

Are we obeying God?​

​

If we don't obey God​

Are we saved?​

​

Read every time Jesus spoke about not obeying Him.​

He said that IF we follow His commandments we are His friends.​

​

What commandments?​

What if we don't follow them?​

Are we still His friend?​

It didn't work because of the weakness of the flesh (Ro 8:3).

Please don't. I don't follow links.

Yes, and of course we don't always do it. That's why we all need forgiveness.

And what happens when we don't? Salvation by works people say we become lost. Sinless perfection people say it means we were never saved. People who trust in Christ say there is no condemnation. What do you say?

You're probably not going to believe this, but I have an intimate personal relationship with the Lord God Almighty. I learned everyting I know to be true from Him. Trusting Him is the only way to know these things. And trusting His warnings about false doctrine is the best way to not fall victim to it.

EDITED FOR SPACE

You're accusing me of believing in sinless perfection.
I'm sorry you've understood this.
You're also misunderstanding everything else I write.

Your copied and pasted commentary is also incorrect as to what is being stated in the NT and is using its own understanding of verses. I refuse to play commentary ping pong and leave it up to you to read through all commentaries AND CHOOSE the one you like best that fits your theological paradigm.


Here is John 3:36 again:

You might want to study the word BELIEVE....
It implies OBEYING.

However, you are free to understand the NT however it serves your beliefs best.....



New International Version
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

New Living Translation
And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.”

English Standard Version
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Berean Standard Bible
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”

Berean Literal Bible
The one believing in the Son has eternal life, but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

King James Bible
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

New King James Version
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

New American Standard Bible
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

NASB 1995
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

NASB 1977
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Legacy Standard Bible
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Amplified Bible
He who believes and trusts in the Son and accepts Him [as Savior] has eternal life [that is, already possesses it]; but he who does not believe the Son and chooses to reject Him, [disobeying Him and denying Him as Savior] will not see [eternal] life, but [instead] the wrath of God hangs over him continually.”

Christian Standard Bible
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who rejects the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

American Standard Version
He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Whoever is trusting in The Son, has The Eternal Life, and whoever disobeys The Son shall not see The Life, but the anger of God shall abide upon him.”

Contemporary English Version
Everyone who has faith in the Son has eternal life. But no one who rejects him will ever share in that life, and God will be angry with them forever.

Douay-Rheims Bible
He that believeth in the Son, hath life everlasting; but he that believeth not the Son, shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

English Revised Version
He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, he will see God's constant anger."

Good News Translation
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not have life, but will remain under God's punishment.

International Standard Version
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

Literal Standard Version
he who is believing in the Son has continuous life; and he who is not believing the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

Majority Standard Bible
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”

New American Bible
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.

NET Bible
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God's wrath remains on him.

New Revised Standard Version
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure God’s wrath.

New Heart English Bible
Whoever believes in the Son has everlasting life, but whoever refuses to believe in the Son won't see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."

Webster's Bible Translation
He that believeth on the Son, hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son, shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Weymouth New Testament
He who believes in the Son has the Life of the Ages; he who disobeys the Son will not enter into Life, but God's anger remains upon him.

World English Bible
One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

Young's Literal Translation
he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.'

 

[JLB]

8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

That is what the truth says.


He believes he is sinless, because he was taught that when you are baptized in water, you LITERALLY die and are born again, with a sinless body.

This is the ROOT of the sinless perfection doctrine.

He will never confess his sins, and be cleansed from them. He would rather die in his sins, before he admits he is wrong.




JLB

 

[Hopeful 2]

??? Repeating a mistaken idea won't make it less mistaken. As I've explained, this is a false dichotomy.

What is mistaken about the idea that if folks are not in one place they must be in the other ?
There aren't any other alternate places.

 

[Hopeful 2]

That is what the truth says.

The truth also says that if we walk in the light, which verse 5 says is God, ALL our sins can be cleansed!
Being cleansed by the blood of Christ allows one to say they have no sin !

He believes he is sinless, because he was taught that when you are baptized in water, you LITERALLY die and are born again, with a sinless body.

You bet I do, and so does Rom 6:4-7..."Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin."
Gal 5:24 also says it..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
And so does Col 2:11..."In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:"
Besides all that, 2 Cor 5:17..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
2 Cor 5:17 didn't say "all things except the vessel".

This is the ROOT of the sinless perfection doctrine.

The root of sinless obedience to God is the love of the truth.

He will never confess his sins, and be cleansed from them. He would rather die in his sins, before he admits he is wrong.

I already confessed my sins, (1 John 1:9), before I was washed clean of my past sins by the blood of Christ. (1 John 1:7)

I hated walking in the darkness-sin, and when I found out that I could walk in the light-God, I leapt at the chance.
Why won't you?

 

[JLB]

If you are not saying there is sin in Christ, God, or the light, you are saying that nobody walks in the light.
If nobody can honestly say they have so sin, then not one soul is in God.

Your flesh contains sin. We are instructed not to live our lives according to our flesh, but according to the Spirit who dwells in our spirit.

If we should sin, then we confess our sin, and are cleansed, in which we continue walking in the light.

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

• "Us" plainly refers to those who walk in the light.
• "Us" also refers to those whom the blood of Jesus cleanses from sin.

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 1:7 - 2:2

• And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

God so loved the world.
God loves the church.

He has made a away for all of us to be forgiven.



JLB

 

[JLB]

The root of sinless obedience to God is the love of the truth.

Here is the truth -

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9



JLB