Bible Study Do we love the truth!

[Hopeful 2]

Starting to get off track.

Maybe.
Do we love the Truth...which/who is Jesus Christ ?
AND, do we love the truth spoken by Him and His apostles ?
I sure hope everyone answers with two "Yesses".

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Actually New Life what's silly is that we're arguing about a WORD.
And I've already explained my position to you that WORDS, VERSES and even PARAGRAGPHS cannot fully explain what the entire NT reveals about God.


??



I gave you a whole list of versions of John 3:36 stating that one must believe AND obey.

If you don't believe it's necessary to OBEY GOD in order to be saved....
so be it.
The NT does REQUIRE OBEDIENCE in order to be saved.

James 1:21-25
21Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls. 22But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves. 23For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror; 24for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was. 25But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.
Matthew 7:24-27
24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25“And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”
Romans 2:5-7
5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
Luke 6:46
46“Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
John 14:23
Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word,

That God REQUIRES OBEDIENCE does not require any knowledge of Greek.

Yes. I'm sure neither one of us has anything better to do than discuss A WORD.
He's a THEOLOGIAN....he knows what is required to be saved.

But you keep believing as you do....
No one will change your mind but the Holy Spirit.

“Only he who believes is obedient,..
only he who is obedient believes.”
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

I was just responding to the false notion that "faith", "belief", and "trust" included the idea of "obedience", which of course they does not. Other words add the concept of obedience (e.g., "faith without works is dead"). Faith is one thing, works is another. They go together, but they are not the same thing.

I identify myself as a theologian also, and my specialty is soteriology. I do have a little clasical training, but my understanding comes from decades of Spirit-directed study of the topic of salvation. Here is a little of what I know about what it takes to be saved and what it means to be saved.

First, God's eternal condemnation rests upon everyone because of their sins and sinfulness. This cannot be avoided or obfuscated except by God deciding to not punish a person for his sins. And, it is clear that God has decided that the ones He will save and not punish are the ones who believe the seemingly foolish message that Jesus died on the cross for their sins (1 Cor 1:21).

Second, when a person understands and accepts God's offer of forgiveness that He offers in Christ, his sins are forgiven and are removed from him as far as the east is from the west (Ps 103:12). But not only are his sins forgiven, but Jesus comes to live in his heart, thereby creating a new heart which is "truly righteous and holy" (Eph 4:24). This person becomes "joined to the Lord" and "is one spirit with Him" (1 Cor 6:17).

Finally, the New Testament has a large number of lengthy passages that call us to godly living. Included in them are four chapters in Romans (Rom. 12:1–15:16), two chapters in Galatians (Gal. 5:1–6:10), two chapters in Ephesians (Eph. 4:17–5:21), two chapters in Colossians (Col. 2:6–3:17), three chapters in Titus (Titus 1:5–3:11), three chapters in James (James 1:12–25; 3:13–4:10), and three chapters in 1 Peter (1 Peter 1:13–2:12; 4:1–11).

But when we read these passages carefully, we do not find even a single Bible verse that says our pre-Christ old nature may be trained to be good. And we do not find even a single Bible verse that says our truly righteous and holy "new man" can do anything wrong or needs forgiveness for anything. But we do see plenty of Bible verses that say God has given us new life in Christ, He has made us one with Him in spirit, and that to live successful Christian lives, we must turn from the evil desires that still exist in the flesh, and we must embrace and live out the godly desires that exist only in the new man who is one spirit with Christ. This is the definition of "walk in the Spirit" so as to "not fulfill the lusts of the flesh" (Eph 5:16).

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

First and greatest commandment
Duet 6:5 love God

1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema

1 cor 13:2 faith requires charity

Faith hope and charity
Greatest is charity
1 cor 13:13

Well, this is more in line with my understanding of the Catholic view on salvation being by works (i.e., through obeying the law). But now I'm confused. I thought you said salvation was through believing in the Church and participating in the sacraments. It can't hardly be both.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

(((Eternal life refers to God’s life in us aka grace)))

Actually, Don, you would be right except for the "aka grace". It's not grace, it's God's life that has no end...

"Eternal life" refers the life God possesses and gives to people. This passage explains it well:

21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.​

...​

24 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
...
26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself (Jn 5:21, 24, 26).​

A person who has "everlasting life" has already passed (perfect active indicative) from death into life (verse 24). God Himself and Jesus both possess this life in themselves (verse 26). And like God the Father, Jesus gives the life that He and the Father possess to whoever He wishes (verse 21).

We see in 1 John 5:11-12 that the "eternal life" that we currently possess was given to us by the Father and it is the same "eternal life" that exists in Jesus. If we have Jesus, then we have His eternal life.

God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. (1 Jn 5:11–12 NASB)​

 

[GodsGrace]

I was just responding to the false notion that "faith", "belief", and "trust" included the idea of "obedience", which of course they does not. Other words add the concept of obedience (e.g., "faith without works is dead"). Faith is one thing, works is another. They go together, but they are not the same thing.

Of course I agree with your last sentence.
But that BELIEF does not incorporate OBEDIENCE, and especially in the Greek language, just isn't so.
If you have belief in someone....do you not obey them?
Jesus said WHY DO YOU CALL ME LORD LORD AND DO NOT AS I SAY?
I don't see how you could get around that NL.

Here are a few Greek dictionary entries for this word apeithe? from two of the most scholarly and reputable reference works on the Greek of the New Testament.

36.23 apeithe? unwillingness or refusal to comply with the demands of some authority—‘to disobey, disobedience.’ ‘whoever disobeys the Son will never have life’ (literally ‘… will never see life’) Jn 3:36. ‘God’s wrath comes upon those who do not obey him’ Eph 5:6.

(Johannes P. Louw and Eugene Albert Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains (New York: United Bible Societies, 1996), 467–468.)
*****************************************
apeithe?. This word means “to be disobedient” and is a significant term in the LXX (Greek Old Testament) for disobedience to God. In the NT it is used of the wilderness generation in Heb. 3:18, that of the flood in 1 Pet. 3:20, all sinners in Rom. 2:8, and Gentiles in Heb. 11:31. Rom. 11:30. “To believe” is the opposite in Acts 14:1–2, and unbelief is parallel. We find an absolute use in Acts 14:2. Rom. 15:31; 1 Pet. 2:7. Important phrases are disobeying the word (1 Pet. 2:8), the gospel (4:17), and the Son (Jn. 3:36).
(Gerhard Kittel, Gerhard Friedrich, and Geoffrey William Bromiley, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: W.B. Eerdmans, 1985), 819–820.)
*******************************************
Disobeys occurs only here in John’s Gospel; it is obviously the opposite of believes, and so JB and Phps translate “refuses to believe.” It is possible to argue that the meaning of disobeys throws some light on the meaning of believes, that is, this kind of belief is the belief which leads to obedience. Therefore one may translate “Whoever obeys the Son has eternal life, and whoever disobeys the Son will never have life.” However, it is better to retain the terms “believes” and “disobeys,” since the very lack of clear opposition tends to reinforce the meaning of the respective terms.
(Barclay Moon Newman and Eugene Albert Nida, A Handbook on the Gospel of John, UBS Handbook Series (New York: United Bible Societies, 1993), 105.)

How it is translated in a variety of translations:

*************************************************************************

In the Greek language of the New Testament, we find the noun “pistis” or the verb “pisteuo,” which means “trust, loyalty, commitment, engagement”. Jesus wasn’t asking anyone to give mental assent to something. He was asking people to make a commitment. He invited people to walk in the way he was walking. Jesus wanted disciples who got involved, who would be engaged in his mission — to feed the hungry, set the oppressed free, clothe the naked, care for the “least of these my brothers”. He invited people to trust God deeply and radically. He called people to follow, to spread the good news of God’s love to everyone, even the prostitutes and tax collectors and losers. He called people to live with compassion and radical freedom. In short, Jesus invited his followers to do something, to live in a certain way.

About 400 years later, St. Jerome translated the New Testament into Latin. He translated the noun “pistis” as “fides” which means “loyalty”; he translated the verb “pisteuo” as “credo”, which means “I give my heart”.

1200 years later, when the Bible was translated into English, the King James Version of the Bible translated these words as “belief” and “believe”. But in the English of the 17th century, to believe meant what the original Greek words mean — “to trust in God” or “to be loyal”. It had to do with walking in the way of Jesus. It meant “I give my heart to…”; “I commit myself loyally to …”; “I give my allegiance to …”

Then about 300 years ago, when the scientific method became the dominant way of viewing the world, scientists and philosophers began to use the word believe in a different way. It was no longer a matter of commitment and following. To believe now meant to give “intellectual assent”.

300 years may seem like a long time, but in the grand sweep of history it really isn’t. For 1700 years, “to believe” meant to make a commitment to living with God’s compassion. Suddenly, in a moment, our understanding of scripture was changed … because the meaning of an English word changed.

So, the bottom line is this:

Belief is what is required and not just an intellectual belief, but a full surrender and obedience to Jesus Christ. This is what is required for our salvation.

source: https://www.cranbrooktownsman.com/opinion/woensdregt-what-does-it-mean-to-believe-5366509


page 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

NewLifeInChrist

2 of 2

I identify myself as a theologian also, and my specialty is soteriology. I do have a little clasical training, but my understanding comes from decades of Spirit-directed study of the topic of salvation. Here is a little of what I know about what it takes to be saved and what it means to be saved.

Do you have a PhD after your name?
If you don't, you cannot identify as a theologian.

First, God's eternal condemnation rests upon everyone because of their sins and sinfulness. This cannot be avoided or obfuscated except by God deciding to not punish a person for his sins. And, it is clear that God has decided that the ones He will save and not punish are the ones who believe the seemingly foolish message that Jesus died on the cross for their sins (1 Cor 1:21).

Agreed.
God invites all to be saved....
but not all accept.
Only those that believe.

Second, when a person understands and accepts God's offer of forgiveness that He offers in Christ, his sins are forgiven and are removed from him as far as the east is from the west (Ps 103:12). But not only are his sins forgiven, but Jesus comes to live in his heart, thereby creating a new heart which is "truly righteous and holy" (Eph 4:24). This person becomes "joined to the Lord" and "is one spirit with Him" (1 Cor 6:17).

Agreed.

Finally, the New Testament has a large number of lengthy passages that call us to godly living. Included in them are four chapters in Romans (Rom. 12:1–15:16), two chapters in Galatians (Gal. 5:1–6:10), two chapters in Ephesians (Eph. 4:17–5:21), two chapters in Colossians (Col. 2:6–3:17), three chapters in Titus (Titus 1:5–3:11), three chapters in James (James 1:12–25; 3:13–4:10), and three chapters in 1 Peter (1 Peter 1:13–2:12; 4:1–11).

Perfect. Every letter of Paul exhorts us to living a good life in Christ.

But when we read these passages carefully, we do not find even a single Bible verse that says our pre-Christ old nature may be trained to be good.

How about Romans 12:1 ?
1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
1 Peter 5:8
Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
Colossians 3:23-24
Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ.
Romans 12:18
If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.

And we do not find even a single Bible verse that says our truly righteous and holy "new man" can do anything wrong or needs forgiveness for anything.

How about 1 John 1:8-10
8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
1 John 2:1
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
Looks like provision is being made for our sins AFTER salvation.

But we do see plenty of Bible verses that say God has given us new life in Christ, He has made us one with Him in spirit, and that to live successful Christian lives, we must turn from the evil desires that still exist in the flesh, and we must embrace and live out the godly desires that exist only in the new man who is one spirit with Christ. This is the definition of "walk in the Spirit" so as to "not fulfill the lusts of the flesh" (Eph 5:16).

Agreed.
So you DO believe we are to OBEY GOD?

Then where is our point of contention??

 

[JLB]

You have misread it, in order to continue saying that there is sin in your skin and bones.
That is a false doctrine
Were there still sin in the vessels of the reborn, God would not dwell in them.

At what point in a born again Christians life does his or her physical body become sinless.

Please use scripture.


Paul writing to born again, water baptized Christians in Rome, exhorts them… Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:12-13



JLB

 

[JLB]

Why do you keep saying that those reborn of the Spirt still have sin on/in them ?

Because that is what scripture teaches —

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12



JLB

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Of course I agree with your last sentence.
But that BELIEF does not incorporate OBEDIENCE, and especially in the Greek language, just isn't so.
If you have belief in someone....do you not obey them?
Jesus said WHY DO YOU CALL ME LORD LORD AND DO NOT AS I SAY?
I don't see how you could get around that NL.

Here are a few Greek dictionary entries for this word apeithe? from two of the most scholarly and reputable reference works on the Greek of the New Testament.

36.23 apeithe? unwillingness or refusal to comply with the demands of some authority—‘to disobey, disobedience.’ ‘whoever disobeys the Son will never have life’ (literally ‘… will never see life’) Jn 3:36. ‘God’s wrath comes upon those who do not obey him’ Eph 5:6.

(Johannes P. Louw and Eugene Albert Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains (New York: United Bible Societies, 1996), 467–468.)
*****************************************

I'm glad to see you are embracing Louw-Nida now. As you probably know, Louw Nida gives two semantic domains to the word. You quoted the first one, but here is the other one:

31.107 ἀπειθέω; ἀπείθεια, ας f: to refuse to believe the Christian message—‘to refuse to be a believer, to reject the Christian message, to refuse to believe.’​

ἀπειθέωb: οἱ δὲ ἀπειθήσαντες Ἰουδαῖοι ἐπήγειραν ‘but the Jews who would not believe stirred up (the Gentiles)’ Ac 14:2.​

ἀπείθειαb: τοῦ πνεύματος τοῦ νῦν ἐνεργοῦντος ἐν τοῖς υἱοῖς τῆς ἀπειθείας ‘the spirit that works in those who refuse to believe’ Eph 2:2. It is also possible to interpret ἀπείθεια in Eph 2:2 as overt disobedience to God (see 36.23).
[Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). In Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 1, p. 378). United Bible Societies.]​

And I will note that I referenced these two semantic domains in my previous comments on this thread, stating that I believe the context of John 3:36 better suits the second semantic domain.

apeithe?. This word means “to be disobedient” and is a significant term in the LXX (Greek Old Testament) for disobedience to God. In the NT it is used of the wilderness generation in Heb. 3:18, that of the flood in 1 Pet. 3:20, all sinners in Rom. 2:8, and Gentiles in Heb. 11:31. Rom. 11:30. “To believe” is the opposite in Acts 14:1–2, and unbelief is parallel. We find an absolute use in Acts 14:2. Rom. 15:31; 1 Pet. 2:7. Important phrases are disobeying the word (1 Pet. 2:8), the gospel (4:17), and the Son (Jn. 3:36).
(Gerhard Kittel, Gerhard Friedrich, and Geoffrey William Bromiley, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: W.B. Eerdmans, 1985), 819–820.)
*******************************************

I'm glad you are now on board with the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, which I have also quoted from in this post. I referenced it when giving the definitions and relationships for the Greek words translated "faith" (noun), "believe" (verb), and "faithful" (adjective).

Disobeys occurs only here in John’s Gospel; it is obviously the opposite of believes, and so JB and Phps translate “refuses to believe.”

As I have stated many times, I agree with the "refuses to believe" translation.

It is possible to argue that the meaning of disobeys throws some light on the meaning of believes, that is, this kind of belief is the belief which leads to obedience. Therefore one may translate “Whoever obeys the Son has eternal life, and whoever disobeys the Son will never have life.” However, it is better to retain the terms “believes” and “disobeys,” since the very lack of clear opposition tends to reinforce the meaning of the respective terms.
(Barclay Moon Newman and Eugene Albert Nida, A Handbook on the Gospel of John, UBS Handbook Series (New York: United Bible Societies, 1993), 105.)

I agree that it is better to retain the terms "believes" and "disobeys".

How it is translated in a variety of translations:

You already gave a rather complete list of translations, some of which have your prefered translation of "ἀπειθέω" and some have mine.

*************************************************************************
In the Greek language of the New Testament, we find the noun “pistis” or the verb “pisteuo,” which means “trust, loyalty, commitment, engagement”. Jesus wasn’t asking anyone to give mental assent to something. He was asking people to make a commitment. He invited people to walk in the way he was walking. Jesus wanted disciples who got involved, who would be engaged in his mission — to feed the hungry, set the oppressed free, clothe the naked, care for the “least of these my brothers”. He invited people to trust God deeply and radically. He called people to follow, to spread the good news of God’s love to everyone, even the prostitutes and tax collectors and losers. He called people to live with compassion and radical freedom. In short, Jesus invited his followers to do something, to live in a certain way.

Ok

About 400 years later, St. Jerome translated the New Testament into Latin. He translated the noun “pistis” as “fides” which means “loyalty”; he translated the verb “pisteuo” as “credo”, which means “I give my heart”.

I don't know Latin, nor do I think a Greek-to-Latin-to-English translation path is accurate or trustworthy.

1200 years later, when the Bible was translated into English, the King James Version of the Bible translated these words as “belief” and “believe”. But in the English of the 17th century, to believe meant what the original Greek words mean — “to trust in God” or “to be loyal”. It had to do with walking in the way of Jesus. It meant “I give my heart to…”; “I commit myself loyally to …”; “I give my allegiance to …”

Then about 300 years ago, when the scientific method became the dominant way of viewing the world, scientists and philosophers began to use the word believe in a different way. It was no longer a matter of commitment and following. To believe now meant to give “intellectual assent”.

300 years may seem like a long time, but in the grand sweep of history it really isn’t. For 1700 years, “to believe” meant to make a commitment to living with God’s compassion. Suddenly, in a moment, our understanding of scripture was changed … because the meaning of an English word changed.

You are trying to make the case that the Greek words transliterated "pistis” and “pisteuo” carry the meaning of a different Greek word transliterated "apeithe". But they don't. If you were correct, then the recognized experts that you quote (TDNT and Louw-Nida) would have definitions and symantic domains that support your argument. But they don't.

So, the bottom line is this:

Belief is what is required and not just an intellectual belief, but a full surrender and obedience to Jesus Christ. This is what is required for our salvation.

source: https://www.cranbrooktownsman.com/opinion/woensdregt-what-does-it-mean-to-believe-5366509


page 1 of 2

 

[JLB]

And I will note that I referenced these two semantic domains in my previous comments on this thread, stating that I believe the context of John 3:36 better suits the second semantic domain.

Do you understand that unbelief and disobedience are used interchangeably in the New Testament?

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV


Unbelief and disobedience are two sides of the same proverbial coin.




JLB

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

NewLifeInChrist

2 of 2

Do you have a PhD after your name?
If you don't, you cannot identify as a theologian.

Lol, aren't you familiar with the new trend that anyone can be anything if the say they identify themselves as such?

Agreed.
God invites all to be saved....
but not all accept.
Only those that believe.

Agreed.

Perfect. Every letter of Paul exhorts us to living a good life in Christ.

To my statements that, "But when we read these passages carefully, we do not find even a single Bible verse that says our pre-Christ old nature may be trained to be good", and "And we do not find even a single Bible verse that says our truly righteous and holy "new man" can do anything wrong or needs forgiveness for anything", you said...

How about Romans 12:1 ?

1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
1 Peter 5:8
Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
Colossians 3:23-24
Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ.
Romans 12:18
If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.

How about 1 John 1:8-10
8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
1 John 2:1
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
Looks like provision is being made for our sins AFTER salvation.

Christians are part flesh and part spirit. I call this the flesh-spirit model of man. It applies only to Christians because they not only possess a human nature, as all people do, but they also possess a divine nature that only born-again Christians have (John 3:6). The flesh is corrupt, but the spirit is truly righteous and holy.

I realize there are other models of man, and you may prefer one of them (see for example, the body-soul-spirit model in 1 Thessalonians 5:23, the body-soul model in Matthew 10:28, the body-spirit model in James 2:26, and the heart-soul-mind-strength model in Mark 12:30). But I like the flesh-spirit model because it best explains who I am and why sin and righteousness exist in me at the same time. I also like it because it is the one most often cited in the books of the Bible. And it is the one least negatively impacted by semantic distinctions.

Agreed.
So you DO believe we are to OBEY GOD?

Then where is our point of contention??

I don't know exactly. I've lost sight of that. Maybe it is that I think what I've gained with Christ is not subject to loss because of the flesh, but is secure because of my union with Christ in the Spirit.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Do you understand that unbelief and disobedience are used interchangeably in the New Testament?

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV

Unbelief and disobedience are two sides of the same proverbial coin.

JLB

J, You're killing me. Where have you been?

 

[JLB]

J, You're killing me. Where have you been?

Hiding in the secret place.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm glad to see you are embracing Louw-Nida now. As you probably know, Louw Nida gives two semantic domains to the word. You quoted the first one, but here is the other one:

31.107 ἀπειθέω; ἀπείθεια, ας f: to refuse to believe the Christian message—‘to refuse to be a believer, to reject the Christian message, to refuse to believe.’​

ἀπειθέωb: οἱ δὲ ἀπειθήσαντες Ἰουδαῖοι ἐπήγειραν ‘but the Jews who would not believe stirred up (the Gentiles)’ Ac 14:2.​

ἀπείθειαb: τοῦ πνεύματος τοῦ νῦν ἐνεργοῦντος ἐν τοῖς υἱοῖς τῆς ἀπειθείας ‘the spirit that works in those who refuse to believe’ Eph 2:2. It is also possible to interpret ἀπείθεια in Eph 2:2 as overt disobedience to God (see 36.23).​

[Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). In Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 1, p. 378). United Bible Societies.]​

And I will note that I referenced these two semantic domains in my previous comments on this thread, stating that I believe the context of John 3:36 better suits the second semantic domain.

I'm glad you are now on board with the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, which I have also quoted from in this post. I referenced it when giving the definitions and relationships for the Greek words translated "faith" (noun), "believe" (verb), and "faithful" (adjective).

As I have stated many times, I agree with the "refuses to believe" translation.

I agree that it is better to retain the terms "believes" and "disobeys".

You already gave a rather complete list of translations, some of which have your prefered translation of "ἀπειθέω" and some have mine.

Ok

I don't know Latin, nor do I think a Greek-to-Latin-to-English translation path is accurate or trustworthy.

You are trying to make the case that the Greek words transliterated "pistis” and “pisteuo” carry the meaning of a different Greek word transliterated "apeithe". But they don't. If you were correct, then the recognized experts that you quote (TDNT and Louw-Nida) would have definitions and symantic domains that support your argument. But they don't.

I'm sorry New Life.
If I wanted to know Greek,,,I'd know it by now.

God will judge us by the light we've received.

I do have one question however before I end this discussion:

DO YOU BELIEVE IT'S NECESSARY TO OBEY GOD?

Seems like an easy Yes or No.

I say YES.

 

[GodsGrace]

Lol, aren't you familiar with the new trend that anyone can be anything if the say they identify themselves as such?

To my statements that, "But when we read these passages carefully, we do not find even a single Bible verse that says our pre-Christ old nature may be trained to be good", and "And we do not find even a single Bible verse that says our truly righteous and holy "new man" can do anything wrong or needs forgiveness for anything", you said...

Christians are part flesh and part spirit. I call this the flesh-spirit model of man. It applies only to Christians because they not only possess a human nature, as all people do, but they also possess a divine nature that only born-again Christians have (John 3:6). The flesh is corrupt, but the spirit is truly righteous and holy.

I realize there are other models of man, and you may prefer one of them (see for example, the body-soul-spirit model in 1 Thessalonians 5:23, the body-soul model in Matthew 10:28, the body-spirit model in James 2:26, and the heart-soul-mind-strength model in Mark 12:30). But I like the flesh-spirit model because it best explains who I am and why sin and righteousness exist in me at the same time. I also like it because it is the one most often cited in the books of the Bible. And it is the one least negatively impacted by semantic distinctions.

I don't know exactly. I've lost sight of that. Maybe it is that I think what I've gained with Christ is not subject to loss because of the flesh, but is secure because of my union with Christ in the Spirit.

Actually the BODY, SOUL, SPIRIT is the most accurate and explains the best our human nature.

But I really don't care to get into this.

I wish you the best New Life.
I welcome you to the forum and hope you remain.

 

[Hopeful 2]

At what point in a born again Christians life does his or her physical body become sinless.
Please use scripture.

Man becomes perfectly sinless at his baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
Acts 2:38..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, ..."
Acts 22:16..."And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

Paul writing to born again, water baptized Christians in Rome, exhorts them… Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:12-13

Right.
If men keep themselves free from sin, sin will never reign in their vessels.
If we obey Rom 6:11, 6:12 will be obeyed too !
Rom 6:11..."Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord."
That raises the question...How do we obey Rom 6:12?
Rom 6:13 gives us the way..."Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God."

The vessels of the converted are instruments of righteousness.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Because that is what scripture teaches —

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12

I hope my last post answered that idea.
"Our" mortal bodies, are instruments of righteousness unto God.

Besides, as it is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
Dead affections and lusts don't have any power over the converted/reborn of God's seed.

 

[JLB]

Man becomes perfectly sinless at his baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
Acts 2:38..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, ..."
Acts 22:16..."And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

Water baptism is great. However we have seen that water baptized Christian's must not let the sin in their physical body have dominion over them, to make them a slave to sin.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12



We are instructed in scripture to confess our sins, in order to be forgiven and cleansed of all sin.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:8-9



However, when a person hears and believes the Gospel, they are born again.

Are you saying a person must be dunked in water to be born again?

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


Do you believe that your physical body was made permanently sinless when you were baptized in water?




JLB

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

I'm sorry New Life.
If I wanted to know Greek,,,I'd know it by now.

God will judge us by the light we've received.

I do have one question however before I end this discussion:

DO YOU BELIEVE IT'S NECESSARY TO OBEY GOD?

Seems like an easy Yes or No.

I say YES.

Yes, God is supreme, and it is necessary to do everything He tells us to do. For example, Abraham obeyed God when He told him to sacrifice his son on an alter (Gen. 22:2), and he was right to do it even though human sacrifice is an abomination to God (Deut. 12:29–31), and God does not change (Mal. 3:6). Saul should have obeyed God when God told him to utterly destroy the Amalekites and everything they had, including their men, women, children, oxen, sheep, camels, and donkeys (1 Sam. 15:3), though this could offend our moral sensibilities which are grounded in the law (Ex. 20:13). Hosea obeyed God when He told him to marry a prostitute as an object lesson of Israel’s spiritual adultery (Hos. 1:2), though marrying a prostitute is not allowed for priests (Lev. 21:7) and presumably not for prophets either.

But I am almost certain that you weren't asking about obeying God, but about obeying all His commandments that are found in the Bible (and/or other Church writings). But unfortunately, obedience to God or to the law today can't rectify disobedience that happened yesterday or may happen tomorrow. The only thing that can rectify disobedience is forgiveness, and we all need it. You seem to think that obedience garners eternal life, but what you don't seem to grasp is that no one is obedient enough to gain eternal life through obedience. It is impossible. God laid on His Son the inquities of us all so that through Him salvation would be possible for all.

 

[JLB]

You seem to think that obedience garners eternal life, but what you don't seem to grasp is that no one is obedient enough to gain eternal life through obedience. It is impossible. God laid on His Son the inquities of us all so that through Him salvation would be possible for all.

While I agree with much of what your saying, I hope to have you clarify for us a little concerning your statement above.


Here is what scripture teaches us.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
Hebrews 5:9


Again, obeying the truth, which is obeying Jesus Christ involves:

Obeying His Gospel;
…in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Obeying His Commandments;
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

“I know Him” = “I have eternal life”


Obeying His Doctrine;
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9



JLB