Bible Study Do we love the truth!

[Hopeful 2]

Water baptism is great. However we have seen that water baptized Christian's must not let the sin in their physical body have dominion over them, to make them a slave to sin.
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12

That is right !
Sin can't reign anywhere if it isn't allowed to be conceived. (James 1:14-15)

We are instructed in scripture to confess our sins, in order to be forgiven and cleansed of all sin.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

Right again !
Confession of past sins had been occurring since John the Baptist was baptizing unto repentance. (Matt 3:6, Mark 1:5)

However, when a person hears and believes the Gospel, they are born again.

Scripture, please.

Are you saying a person must be dunked in water to be born again?

Yes, as it is written in Rom 6:4..."Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Thank God for that, eh ?
Did you notice the "in Him" part ?
Rom 6:3 tells us how to get "in Him"..."Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?"

Lotsa believers out there are not "in Him", so don't manifest the new life.

Do you believe that your physical body was made permanently sinless when you were baptized in water?

Permanently...no.
It is remade sinless, and we have been equipt to keep it so.
Loss of commitment to God can change our status in a New York minute.
There is a race to complete !

 

[NoahK]

Whoa! Hold on, here. There's a BIG difference between the truths of the Gospel and the Savior. The Gospel simply tells us about the Savior who saves; the truths of the Gospel themselves are not salvific, however. If you're dying of a brain tumour and your doctor tells you that you need brain surgery to be saved, does that information save you? Can you go away having heard this information and believing it and think your tumour is therefore gone? No. Likewise, the truths of the Gospel diagnose our sin-sickness and tell us who can save us from it, but this knowledge itself doesn't save us. No, what saves us is a Person, not true information.



Yes, it can be. But the First and Great Commandment isn't to go to church, or to love others, or give to charity, or to read the Bible. The First and Great Commandment isn't about external obedience, but about the state of our hearts, our inner person. This is the lesson of the story Jesus gave in Matthew 7:21-23 and the point the apostle Paul made in 1 Corinthians 13:1-3.



No, obeying God is the result of a love for God - or ought to be. The Pharisees were professionally obedient to God's rules, even making up many of their own, but Jesus said that their hearts were far from God. (Matthew 15:8; Mark 7:6)

Matthew 23:25-28
25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.
27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people’s bones and all uncleanness.
28 So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

As these verses indicate, it is not necessarily the case that one's obedience to God, to His commands, is a sure sign of one's love for Him. Not at all.

This reply reminds of one thing Christ told us "Not all who call me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. Only those who do the will of the Father. You can't be CINO, you have to live what you say not just say it. Then the lost will know you are truly Christian.

 

[JLB]

That is right !
Sin can't reign anywhere if it isn't allowed to be conceived. (James 1:14-15)

The problem you keep trying to avoid, and therefore you keep avoiding is that we as born again, water baptized Christians are not to allow the sin in our mortal body to reign over us, but we are to reign over it and not allow it to bring us into bondage to it's lustful cravings.

The truth: we as water baptized, born again Christians, still have sin in our physical body.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it (sin)in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:12-14

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it

Question: Where is it (sin) Answer: in your mortal body.


JLB

 

[Hopeful 2]

The problem you keep trying to avoid, and therefore you keep avoiding is that we as born again, water baptized Christians are not to allow the sin in our mortal body to reign over us, but we are to reign over it and not allow it to bring us into bondage to it's lustful cravings.

Your interpretation of Rom 6:12 is corrupted.
It is written..."Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof."
You see..."Let not sin in your mortal body reign, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof."
There is no sin in us unless, we let it in by committing a sin !
We are being exhorted not to let that happen.

The truth: we as water baptized, born again Christians, still have sin in our physical body.

If he does, he wasn't reborn of God's seed.
He is still of Adam.
If he is still committing sin, his repentance from sin was a lie to God.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.

Don't sin, and that will be accomplished.

And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:12-14

Be an instrument of righteousness and a servant of God, instead of an instrument of unrighteousness and a servant of sin.
"But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Rom 6:22)
Some obey verse 12, and are free from sin.

 

[JLB]

Your interpretation of Rom 6:12 is corrupted.

Where is the sin, that Paul is warning the church about?

In our spirit?
In our soul?
In our mortal body?

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:12-14

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, God is supreme, and it is necessary to do everything He tells us to do. For example, Abraham obeyed God when He told him to sacrifice his son on an alter (Gen. 22:2), and he was right to do it even though human sacrifice is an abomination to God (Deut. 12:29–31), and God does not change (Mal. 3:6). Saul should have obeyed God when God told him to utterly destroy the Amalekites and everything they had, including their men, women, children, oxen, sheep, camels, and donkeys (1 Sam. 15:3), though this could offend our moral sensibilities which are grounded in the law (Ex. 20:13). Hosea obeyed God when He told him to marry a prostitute as an object lesson of Israel’s spiritual adultery (Hos. 1:2), though marrying a prostitute is not allowed for priests (Lev. 21:7) and presumably not for prophets either.

But I am almost certain that you weren't asking about obeying God, but about obeying all His commandments that are found in the Bible (and/or other Church writings). But unfortunately, obedience to God or to the law today can't rectify disobedience that happened yesterday or may happen tomorrow. The only thing that can rectify disobedience is forgiveness, and we all need it. You seem to think that obedience garners eternal life, but what you don't seem to grasp is that no one is obedient enough to gain eternal life through obedience. It is impossible. God laid on His Son the inquities of us all so that through Him salvation would be possible for all.

You should read what I post and not put words into my mouth or into my brain.
You shouldn't ASSUME what I believe or do not believe....
it's rather dangerous to discuss serious matter with persons that tend to do this.
I bid you farewell.

 

[donadams]

Starting to get off track.

The gate only opens from the inside, you cannot enter, it must be opened to you or administered to in the sacrament of baptism as the initiation

 

[donadams]

Well, this is more in line with my understanding of the Catholic view on salvation being by works (i.e., through obeying the law). But now I'm confused. I thought you said salvation was through believing in the Church and participating in the sacraments. It can't hardly be both.

Members of Christ’s new covenant of grace by faith and baptism, united to the mediator and having union with God and His saints!

Belong to God purchased at the price of the precious blood of Jesus

my grace is sufficient: 2 cor 12:9
Seek the kingdom: Matt 6:33
Abide in Christ / bear fruit Jn 15:4
Perpetual state of faith: Jn 3:16
Watch & Pray: Matt 26:41
Ask and receive: 7:8
Pray: Matt 6:6
Fasting: Matt 6:17
Alms: Matt 6:3
Practice of the virtues of Jesus
Christ: Matt 11:29
Narrow gate road lead to life Matt 7:14
Beatitudes: Matt 5:3-16
Christian suffering / Deny thyself, take up Thy cross: Matt 10:38 & 16:24 rom 8:18 2 thes 1:5
2 Tim 2:12 Phil 1:29
Frequenting the sacraments (promises) of grace: Heb 8:8
2 Timothy 1:1
Endure to the end: Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13

All united in Christ and Soaked in His blood, grace, the merits Christ won for us by His life, death, and resurrection!

 

[donadams]

Actually, Don, you would be right except for the "aka grace". It's not grace, it's God's life that has no end...

"Eternal life" refers the life God possesses and gives to people. This passage explains it well:

21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.​

...​

24 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.​

...​

26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself (Jn 5:21, 24, 26).​

A person who has "everlasting life" has already passed (perfect active indicative) from death into life (verse 24). God Himself and Jesus both possess this life in themselves (verse 26). And like God the Father, Jesus gives the life that He and the Father possess to whoever He wishes (verse 21).

We see in 1 John 5:11-12 that the "eternal life" that we currently possess was given to us by the Father and it is the same "eternal life" that exists in Jesus. If we have Jesus, then we have His eternal life.

God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. (1 Jn 5:11–12 NASB)​

But we can lose it by sin

 

[JLB]

The gate only opens from the inside, you cannot enter, it must be opened to you or administered to in the sacrament of baptism as the initiation

Which Baptism?

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

While I agree with much of what your saying, I hope to have you clarify for us a little concerning your statement above.

Here is what scripture teaches us.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
Hebrews 5:9

Again, obeying the truth, which is obeying Jesus Christ involves:

Obeying His Gospel;
…in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Obeying His Commandments;
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

“I know Him” = “I have eternal life”

Obeying His Doctrine;
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

JLB

You want me to clarify this statement...

"You seem to think that obedience garners eternal life, but what you don't seem to grasp is that no one is obedient enough to gain eternal life through obedience. It is impossible. God laid on His Son the inquities of us all so that through Him salvation would be possible for all."​

It should be clear in what I said that I do not understand how proponents of salvation through obedience can ignore their own disobedience. Furthermore, people who are obedient to God do not need the forgiveness that Christ offers. Obedience does create a path to etenal life, but the first time a person disobeys, that path closes.

None of the verses you quoted contradict this because God has given us only one way to escape His condemnation for our sins, and that is to place all our trust in Christ for the forgiveness He offers. God is personally involved drawing all men to Christ. If a person does not trust/obey/follow Him to Christ, then that person will die in his sins. And He graciously penned the Ten Commandments with His own finger so that we may know beyond any doubt that we each have fallen short of His righteous requirements and need Jesus to save us.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

You should read what I post and not put words into my mouth or into my brain.
You shouldn't ASSUME what I believe or do not believe....
it's rather dangerous to discuss serious matter with persons that tend to do this.
I bid you farewell.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood you.

 

[JLB]

"You seem to think that obedience garners eternal life, but what you don't seem to grasp is that no one is obedient enough to gain eternal life through obedience. It is impossible. God laid on His Son the inquities of us all so that through Him salvation would be possible for all."

Only those who obey the Gospel will receive eternal life.


in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17

For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9




JLB

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

The gate only opens from the inside, you cannot enter, it must be opened to you or administered to in the sacrament of baptism as the initiation

This confirms one of our differences.

You believe the Catholic church is the gateholder and that it opens the gate to let people into the kingdom of God when it baptizes them.

I believe Jesus is the gateholder and that He opens the gate to let people into the kingdom of God when they receive Him and the forgiveness He offers. And the occasion of their entry is celebrated by Jesus coming to live (permanently) in that person's heart, bringing them from death to life. Baptism pictures it, but does not do anything.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Members of Christ’s new covenant of grace by faith and baptism, united to the mediator and having union with God and His saints!

Belong to God purchased at the price of the precious blood of Jesus

my grace is sufficient: 2 cor 12:9
Seek the kingdom: Matt 6:33
Abide in Christ / bear fruit Jn 15:4
Perpetual state of faith: Jn 3:16
Watch & Pray: Matt 26:41
Ask and receive: 7:8
Pray: Matt 6:6
Fasting: Matt 6:17
Alms: Matt 6:3
Practice of the virtues of Jesus
Christ: Matt 11:29
Narrow gate road lead to life Matt 7:14
Beatitudes: Matt 5:3-16
Christian suffering / Deny thyself, take up Thy cross: Matt 10:38 & 16:24 rom 8:18 2 thes 1:5
2 Tim 2:12 Phil 1:29
Frequenting the sacraments (promises) of grace: Heb 8:8
2 Timothy 1:1
Endure to the end: Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13

All united in Christ and Soaked in His blood, grace, the merits Christ won for us by His life, death, and resurrection!

But we can lose it by sin

So the sacraments save us so that we may live holy lives, but when we fail to live holy lives, we lose it all. Then what? Participating in the sacraments saves us again so that we may resume holy living? Until we sin again? And this repeats how often? Wouldn't it become obvious after a few cycles that it isn't working?

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm sorry if I misunderstood you.

I just don't have a lot of time here and I find that I can't spend half of it explaining what I said.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Only those who obey the Gospel will receive eternal life.

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17

For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9

JLB

3 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?—3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? (Ga 3:1–4)​

The Galatian Christians were bewitched and did not obey the truth, even though Jesus Christ had clearly been portrayed to them as crucifid for their sins. They had become "foolish" in their thinking because although they knew that they received the Spirit of God by faith in Christ, they thought that obedience to the law was the path to Christian maturity. This called into question whether or not their salvation was real or not.

After a paragraph of explanation that successful Christian living is through the excercise of faith (Ga 4:5-9), Paul continues...

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”​

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Ga 3:10–14)​

People who orient themselves to God by obedience to His laws, as the Galatian Christians were doing, place themselves under the curse of the law. The law has blessings for those who obey and curses for those who do not obey. And it is obvious that in God's eyes (the only eyes that count), nobody escapes the curse of the law because nobody obeyes it to the extent God requires. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, so that we might receive the Holy Spirit through faith in Him, and not through obedience to the law.

A bit later, Paul concludes his remarks on the path chosen by the Galatian Christians...

5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. (Ga 5:1–6)​

Their attempts to be justified by obedience to the law caused them to "have become estranged from Christ" and to "have fallen from grace". It is unwise to follow in their footsteps.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Where is the sin, that Paul is warning the church about?

It has not yet been committed.

In our spirit?
In our soul?
In our mortal body?

No, it is still uncommitted.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:12-14

Obey, and live forever.
Obey and be sinless.

Unfortunately, the fruit of your false doctrine is this..."If I have sin in me, and can't get rid of it, what is the point of resisting any temptations ?"
and..."What is the point or value in becoming a Christian?"

Thanks be to God for allowing us to destroy the first version of ourselves, and to be reborn of God's seed !

 

[donadams]

Which Baptism?

The sacrament, the initiation
Eph 4:5 the one baptism

 

[donadams]

So the sacraments save us so that we may live holy lives, but when we fail to live holy lives, we lose it all. Then what? Participating in the sacraments saves us again so that we may resume holy living? Until we sin again? And this repeats how often? Wouldn't it become obvious after a few cycles that it isn't working?

Christians are justified not saved