Do you agree, or disagree?

[Jethro Bodine]

Not me, I'm a simple man.

♫ "I am just a simple man, working on the land, Oh it ain't easy" ♫

 

[Cygnus]

Yes, that is very good for me.
The assurance of my salvation comes from my present trusting in Christ for the forgiveness of my sins, not from the so-called assurance of never knowing until I leave the body if my faith fails exposing me as never having 'really' believed in the first place.

In my doctrine, I know I am genuinely saved as long as I'm trusting in Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB).
In your doctrine, you know that you are genuinely saved by whether or not your faith eventually gets exposed as having been fake all along by a failure of that faith. Which you can not know until you die. And that's supposed to be the doctrine of security? Really?

1st John 5:10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has this testimony within him; whoever does not believe God has made Him out to be a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony God has given about His Son. 11And this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Learn more on the assurance of salvation.

Above you said "In your doctrine, you know that you are genuinely saved by whether or not your faith eventually gets exposed as having been fake all along by a failure of that faith. Which you can not know until you die. And that's supposed to be the doctrine of security? Really?"

What in the world are you talking about? Your point appears to be very strawmanish.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It sounds like you need a little bit more detail.....Back up to verse 1 in the 2nd chapter. It starts out with "But false prophets also arose among the people," It is these false prophets that are spreading a false gospel showing people how to "escaped the defilements of the world"....Many will follow in their depravity, and because of them the way of the truth will be defamed. These false prophets "promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves to corruption." They believe they have "escape from the defilement/corruption of the world"...they are NOT saved, nor were they ever saved.
They profess to be christians...but return to their original ways.

Look....not a word about false prophets or teachers...he is addressing believers:

1Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: 2Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;3seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. 4For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust." (2 Peter 1:1-4 NASB)

He plainly says being "partakers of the divine nature" is "having escaped the corruption that is in the world". Then in the passage about false teachers in chapter 2 he says these false teachers had also "escaped the defilements of the world" (2 Peter 2:20 NASB). But you're going to tell me their 'escape' from the defilement and corruption of the world was not a partaking of the divine nature? That's just plain unreasonable. Only people who want to believe that will believe that.

 

[Cygnus]

Look....not a word about false prophets or teachers...he is addressing believers:

1Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: 2Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;3seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. 4For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust." (2 Peter 1:1-4 NASB)

He plainly says being "partakers of the divine nature" is "having escaped the corruption that is in the world". Then in the passage about false teachers in chapter 2 he says these false teachers had also "escaped the defilements of the world" (2 Peter 2:20 NASB). But you're going to tell me their 'escape' from the defilement and corruption of the world was not a partaking of the divine nature? That's just plain unreasonable. Only people who want to believe that will believe that.

2nd Peter 2....from which your text was taken. It mentions false prophets. False prophets presenting false gospels.

 

[JLB]

I'm saying that people can have the knowledge of the truth....undertand the principals of christianity....and still not accept Christ.

Do you disagree?

But it's when the Spirit Christ dwells in a person are they able to know the way of righteousness, and escape the corrupting pollutions of the world.

For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2 Peter 2:20-21


Now if you can show me from the scriptures, that there is another way to escape the pollutions of the world and to know the way of righteousness, other than through believing the Gospel and being cleansed of unrighteousness through the blood of Jesus, then please share them with me.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Learn more on the assurance of salvation.

Why is the author so ignorant of these plain scriptures?

"10Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble" (2 Peter 1:10 NASB)

"11And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end" (Hebrews 6:11 NASB)

"Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus." (1 Timothy 3:13 NIV)

Assurance doesn't just come from faith alone, but also from how your faith manifests in what you do. That's not my opinion. I'm showing you that's what the Bible says. The Protestant church is so woefully ignorant of these truths in the Bible because of the swell of OSAS doctrines that have overtaken her and blinded her eyes to the truths about works plainly written in our Bibles.

 

[Cygnus]

But it's when the Spirit Christ dwells in a person are they able to know the way of righteousness, and escape the corrupting pollutions of the world.

For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2 Peter 2:20-21


Now if you can show me from the scriptures, that there is another way to escape the pollutions of the world and to know the way of righteousness, other than through believing the Gospel and being cleansed of unrighteousness through the blood of Jesus, then please share them with me.



JLB

You really didn't answer my question.

Notice it says....known the way of righteousness,.....Not, know righteousness...people can know the WAY.....and disregard the way by turning from the holy commandment delivered to them..

 

[Cygnus]

Why is the author so ignorant of these plain scriptures?

"10Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble" (2 Peter 1:10 NASB)

"11And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end" (Hebrews 6:11 NASB)

"Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus." (1 Timothy 3:13 NIV)

Assurance doesn't just come from faith alone, but also from how your faith manifests itself in what you do. That's not my opinion. I'm showing you that's what the Bible says. The Protestant church is so woefully ignorant of these truths in the Bible because of the swell of OSAS doctrines that have overtaken her and blinded her eyes to the truths about works plainly written in our Bibles.

So, STUMBLE means losing your salvation? Really? Might I suggest STUMBLE means something more like...backsliding.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

2nd Peter 2....from which your text was taken. It mentions false prophets. False prophets presenting false gospels.

If "having escaped the corruption in the world" is partaking of the divine nature in 2 Peter 1:4 NASB, how can it not be that in the very next chapter 2 Peter 2:20 NASB? Explain.

I sense a circular argument coming along the lines of 'because the people in chapter 2 are false teachers'.

 

[JLB]

2nd Peter 2....from which your text was taken. It mentions false prophets. False prophets presenting false gospels.

Context brother.

18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:18-22

"Having washed" is a reference to those who have actually been cleansed from there sins; the pollutions of the world.

Who have actually escaped the world and the kingdom of darkness.


For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

The holy commandment [singular], by which we are saved is Repent.

The command of the Gospel is repent.

The way we are forgiven and cleansed of our sins is to repent; turn to God, by turning from Satan as our Lord.

To turn from the holy command, Repent, is to go back to serving Satan, after we have known the way of righteousness.

“The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.” Mark 1:15

The Gospel message is: Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.
This is the call to turn to God, in submission to His rule and authority.
This is the command of the Gospel that we are to obey, if we believe the Gospel.

Repent is about being transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God.

It's about changing who you serve, as your Lord.

The Gospel of the kingdom is about changing the kingdom your are in, by changing the lord you serve.

Repent means to turn to God.

If you are called to turn to God, then by default you are called to turn from Satan as your lord.

The way we are granted this, is by repenting, which means turning away from Satan and his kingdom, and turning to God, and confessing Jesus as Lord.

This is plainly what the Lord Jesus Christ taught to and commissioned Paul to do.

15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:15-18

Repent is about being transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God.

To turn from the holy command, Repent, is to go back to serving Satan, after we have known the way of righteousness.



JLB

 

[JLB]

You really didn't answer my question.

Notice it says....known the way of righteousness,.....Not, know righteousness...people can know the WAY.....and disregard the way by turning from the holy commandment delivered to them..

To know the way, is to know Jesus.

Jesus is the way of righteousness.
Jesus is the truth of righteousness.
Jesus is the life of righteousness.

Know Jesus, Know righteousness.

No Jesus, No righteousness.

known Strong's G1921 - epiginōskō

1. to become thoroughly acquainted with, to know thoroughly
   
   1. to know accurately, know well
2. to know
   1. to recognise
      
      1. by sight, hearing, of certain signs, to perceive who a person is
   2. to know i.e. to perceive
   3. to know i.e. to find out, ascertain
   4. to know i.e. to understand
      

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So, STUMBLE means losing your salvation? Really? Might I suggest STUMBLE means something more like...backsliding.

Let's not open another subject .

Look what the passage says about how you "make certain about His calling and choosing you". That happens by observing your own behavior and growth in the truth. But the author of the 'Get Answers' article, or whatever that link was, says you're looking in the wrong place if you look to what you are doing for assurance. That's not what the Bible says, but I'm well aware of the fact that most in the church do not know about these passages in the Bible that tell you how to be assured in your salvation by what you do. And when they do see them, they don't believe them.

 

[ezra]

This is simple.
I'm curious. I want to know how many in this forum agree that the genuine believer who later stops believing is still saved despite them still being in unbelief on the day they died. Of course, there are probably an endless array of reasons why one would vote 'yes' or 'no', so just pick one and if you need to explain your answer, do that in a post.

this is a loaded question awaiting a eruption the apostle paul wrote work out your own salvation --
Philippians 2
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. personally i dont believe a true believer will compltely depart from the truth. he may wonder like the prodigal son but will come back to his senses can or can we not is not my call

 

[ezra]

Can we know another's heart... .

nope Only God does

 

[ezra]

Is there such a thing as a genuine believer that stops believing.

good question yes the Bible does talk about unbelief The father instantly cried out, "I do believe, but help me overcome my unbelief!"

Strong's Concordance
apistia: unbelief Short Definition: unbelief, unfaithfulness, distrust. would a true believer depart from Christ as in did not exist ? or become some so deep in sign find no way to repent? i really dont know i do believe my salvation is secure in Him but that does not give me a license to sin and not repent . i feel a true child of God will come to his senses like the prodigal son. so the question is what is unbelief ? the definition given describes us at times

 

[Cygnus]

If "having escaped the corruption in the world" is partaking of the divine nature in 2 Peter 1:4 NASB, how can it not be that in the very next chapter 2 Peter 2:20 NASB? Explain.

I sense a circular argument coming along the lines of 'because the people in chapter 2 are false teachers'.

I have already explained it. They were never saved.

 

[Cygnus]

To know the way, is to know Jesus.

Jesus is the way of righteousness.
Jesus is the truth of righteousness.
Jesus is the life of righteousness.

Know Jesus, Know righteousness.

No Jesus, No righteousness.

known Strong's G1921 - epiginōskō

1. 
   
   
   • to become thoroughly acquainted with, to know thoroughly
     1. to know accurately, know well
   • to know
     1. to recognise
        1. by sight, hearing, of certain signs, to perceive who a person is
     2. to know i.e. to perceive
     3. to know i.e. to find out, ascertain
     4. to know i.e. to understand

JLB

And that proves what? Sounds like you got that from some feel good TV preacher.

 

[Cygnus]

Context brother.

18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:18-22

"Having washed" is a reference to those who have actually been cleansed from there sins; the pollutions of the world.

Who have actually escaped the world and the kingdom of darkness.

JLB

OK, well play your thought for the sake of the argument.

Lets say they were saved....escaped from those who live in error.....then backslide into drugs and alchol and lose their family, job, home etc...it seems as if "the latter end is worse for them than the beginning." Considering their severly backslidden state is worse than they were prior to being saved.
The verse doesn't say they lost their salvation. Why? because no one can snatch you from Jesus' hand.

 

[Cygnus]

Let's not open another subject .

Look what the passage says about how you "make certain about His calling and choosing you". That happens by observing your own behavior and growth in the truth. But the author of the 'Get Answers' article, or whatever that link was, says you're looking in the wrong place if you look to what you are doing for assurance. That's not what the Bible says, but I'm well aware of the fact that most in the church do not know about these passages in the Bible that tell you how to be assured in your salvation by what you do. And when they do see them, they don't believe them.

Here's my beef with you...You perform "works" to remain saved. That is what you have posted in the past. The substitute death of Christ on the cross where all of your sins were imputed to Him isn't enough to save you....so your theology says.

Rather than working to glorify Jesus....you work to keep your butt saved.

 

[WIP]

OK, well play your thought for the sake of the argument.

Lets say they were saved....escaped from those who live in error.....then backslide into drugs and alchol and lose their family, job, home etc...it seems as if "the latter end is worse for them than the beginning." Considering their severly backslidden state is worse than they were prior to being saved.
The verse doesn't say they lost their salvation. Why? because no one can snatch you from Jesus' hand.

I suspect there's a difference between backsliding into drugs and alcohol versus backsliding into unbelief. I can struggle with my fleshly sins and still be a believer. The optimum word I used here is "struggle." It's one thing to struggle with sin and a totally different one to embrace sin.