Do you believe in predestination ?

[Norman]

It becomes a battle of wills! Lol

 

[for_his_glory]

I've studied the scriptures for decades, I've heard most, if not all the major slants, and I've come to a conclusion.
When I turned 2, I recalled that my first memory was being conscious, and what appeared to be about 7 feet in front of me, was a ball of pure, white, light. Shining out from it a little and thickly clustered, where white rays. All around this ball was black space. I've remembered this every day of my life.
I was raised by a socialist atheist. I thought that Jesus was the Christmas baby and had something to do with the Easter bunny. I had no interest in religion.
In 1973, when I was 14, I was nagged into going to church, only agreeing to go if he would stop bugging me. He agreed.
I found the service, Pentecostal, to be extremely unappealing. At the time, I was doing my best to be a hippy.
When it ended, a guy came to me, opened a bible and read John 3:16 to me. I instantly saw somewhere else. About 3 feet in front of me was a curtain.
A hand holding a sword thrust through it, plunging the sword deep into my belly, along with the knowledge that what he'd just read was true. I have never been able to stop believing it, though for many years I tried.
In 1994, I walked into a church, where I met my Father. Our hearts have been one ever since, though I've been anything but a typical Christian.
For me, I can't lose my salvation. Shalom.

This is a hard topic to discuss as there are two sides to the coin. Personally I really do not see what it matters as long as we are Spiritually born again from above and indwelled with the Holy Spirit. In my understanding what God predestined before the foundation of the world was His plan of salvation through Christ Jesus. IMO, because of the fall of Satan who was cast down to the ground that weaken the nations, Isaiah 14:12, God then knew that man would sin and fall away from Him.

 

[jasonc]

I never said you were reformed. The whole thing with threads like this it becomes a battle between having or not having freewill. Many people teach that man either has no freewill (fatalism) or limited amounts of it. I only give what I have studied about this subject and give the scriptures, but it's up to others to believe how they want.

We are limited .we control very little in this world .

We think with medicine we can end phages,pestillence

 

[Norman]

This is a hard topic to discuss as there are two sides to the coin. Personally I really do not see what it matters as long as we are Spiritually born again from above and indwelled with the Holy Spirit. In my understanding what God predestined before the foundation of the world was His plan of salvation through Christ Jesus. IMO, because of the fall of Satan who was cast down to the ground that weaken the nations, Isaiah 14:12, God then knew that man would sin and fall away from Him.

Keeping the bond of the Spirit is very important. We are all going to disagree at one point. Disagreeing respectfully is, in my opinion, desirable.

 

[Adoration]

What God predestined was that we should be holy and blameless before Him. God did not predestine those who would be saved or damned.

Christianity 101... So easy a child can understand. Free will is one of the most beautiful if not terrifying gifts we
as humans have been given... but how much more beautiful the outcome in heaven.... Souls CHOOSING to say YES to JESUS.... The sweet perfume of that aroma is like no other. We think and see so small.

 

[for_his_glory]

Since I have some time and would rather be looking at scripture, let me explain the entire Chapter in its context:

1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

Ok, every passage in this Chapter is about the earthly state of the Jews and Gentiles, and what was happening with each. At the present time the Jews were being bypassed by God in favor of the Gentiles. Paul wasn't happy to see them being bypassed and the gospel being preached to the Gentiles in the earth instead, so he was saying the above.

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

Again, this is about what was happening in the earth. Paul was explaining why the gospel was being preached to the Gentiles now, and it was because the promise was not to Israel's "seed" in the flesh but to his seed spiritually. But again, the discussion is about why God was now turning to the Gentiles to preach to them the gospel in the earth.

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

These are now two different illustrations of decisions God made about what fate people would suffer in the earth, not in eternity. He determined in advance that Jacob would be blessed and Esau would not, to illustrate the principle that "it is not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit" says the Lord, and "when you prosper, do not say, 'My hand has gotten me this wealth,' for it is the Lord who has caused you to prosper." He knew Esau would be a very fleshly man before he was even born, and chose to illustrate that the power of the flesh will not determine whom God chooses to bless and who He does not in the earth.

He also uses Pharaoh as an illustration of the same point. Who was stronger in the flesh, the Israelites or the Egyptian army? Obviously the Egyptians were, but there was nothing they could do to stop the Israelites from leaving Egypt, because "It is not by power, nor by might, but by My Spirit" says the Lord.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

This is now an indictment against fleshly Israel in Paul's time, because they were without excuse for having rejected their Messiah. They could not simply say, "Who has resisted His will?" They had rejected Him, and now He was turning to the Gentiles. Like Jacob, spiritual Israel was now being blessed with "the covenants, and the adoption, and the glory" in the earth instead of natural Israel, and like Esau, natural Israel was essentially selling their spiritual birthright for a bowl of porridge. But this was not about salvation, but about the current spiritual state of the Jews and the Gentiles at the time Paul was writing, and why God was turning to them now, which is what he refers to in the next verse:

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

This "glory" he is referring to is described by Paul elsewhere as follows:

1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known through the church unto the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord (Ephesians 3:1-11)

This is thus what Paul is talking about when he finishes out the rest of Romans 9:

25 As He says also in Hosea: “I will call them My people, who were not My people, and her beloved, who was not beloved.” 26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ there they shall be called sons of the living God.” 27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, the remnant will be saved. 28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness, because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.” 29 And as Isaiah said before: “Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we would have become like Sodom, and we would have been made like Gomorrah.” 30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written: “Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, and whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

This is the best teaching of truth I have ever heard on Romans 9. If we would just put away the doctrines of man and start understanding that which has already been written as only the Holy Spirit can teach us, then we will receive wisdom and understanding of the word of God.

 

[Consecrated Life]

That we believe predestination, as God understands it exists is one thing , but I have to wonder what this business about humans believing in it " believing in predestination " that makes us of more value to God for His purpose ?
If " believing in predestination " , however you interpret that, adds not a wit more of value to us as God's ambassadors to the world then it would seem to me we are barking up the wrong spiritual tree .
And as this thread has accumulated 5 pages so far without one word being spoken as to exactly how this deep belief in predestination grows us to be greater vessels of God for His use in comforting the comfortless and being the seed that advances from producing ten fold , but grows to producing fifty or a hundred fold , what is the supposed purpose being alluded to here , could someone who espouses " belief IN predestination" please state ?

"...that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble by
the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God ."
( 2 Corinthians 1:4 )

 

[for_his_glory]

Mans religion teaches contrary to scripture, that Gods predestination is premised on Gods foresight of mans doing something, his works or believing etc, but its not true. Gods predestination is conditioned upon His own Eternal Purpose, the good pleasure of His Will Eph 1:5

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

according to the good pleasure of his will,

2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The good pleasure of God's will is that none should perish, but that all should come to repentance. See, there is something we need to do on our part and that is to repent and be baptized then God will fill us with His Holy Spirit. It is God who calls/draws us to salvation, but it is our choice by making our own decision to answer that call to repentance.

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

 

[for_his_glory]

Keeping the bond of the Spirit is very important. We are all going to disagree at one point. Disagreeing respectfully is, in my opinion, desirable.

Many times within disagreements it will cause some to look deeper into the full context of scripture instead of just one or two scriptures taken out of context.

 

[jasonc]

Christianity 101... So easy a child can understand. Free will is one of the most beautiful if not terrifying gifts we
as humans have been given... but how much more beautiful the outcome in heaven.... Souls CHOOSING to say YES to JESUS.... The sweet perfume of that aroma is like no other. We think and see so small.

My pastor fully reformed explains the five points on a kindagarten level .

Try explaining to an 8 year old why God allowed both her parents to die .one from a disease .the other a car wreck within a year

 

[Hidden In Him]

This is the best teaching of truth I have ever heard on Romans 9. If we would just put away the doctrines of man and start understanding that which has already been written as only the Holy Spirit can teach us, then we will receive wisdom and understanding of the word of God.

Well I just started glancing at the whole Chapter, and since it was on my mind anyway, I thought I'd post it. But I always teach that things should be taken in their immediate and surrounding contexts. Otherwise, we end up with a mess on our hands that gets progressively worse, because one error compounds itself into two, and then three, and then there is no hope of understanding things accurately anymore.

I own a lot of commentaries and reference works (a whole library full of them, in fact), but I rarely go to that stuff for interpretation unless the Spirit of God specifically leads me there. I go to the Holy Spirit first as my Teacher, and let Him make sense of passages in light of their immediate and surrounding contexts. I usually come away with a clearer understanding of them as a result. It's why I have a fairly high percentage of people who flat cannot answer me during debate, at least comparatively speaking anyway. And I'm not really all that smart in some ways. I'm just smart enough to let God be my Teacher, not man.

 

[Delete_me]

Many times within disagreements it will cause some to look deeper into the full context of scripture instead of just one or two scriptures taken out of context.

This is like the holy grail of moderating and running a board, isn't it? If two people (or camps of people) come to the table and lay out their POV's.... Attack the disagreement; not the people. Classic constructive conflict resolution. Often the biggest problem doesn't even lie within the subject of debate: it's in the unproductive conflict resolution methods. Belligerence, pride, avoidance, lack of candor, attitude, poor listening skills.

 

[for_his_glory]

Well I just started glancing at the whole Chapter, and since it was on my mind anyway, I thought I'd post it. But I always teach that things should be taken in their immediate and surrounding contexts. Otherwise, we end up with a mess on our hands that gets progressively worse, because one error compounds itself into two, and then three, and then there is no hope of understanding things accurately anymore.

I own a lot of commentaries and reference works (a whole library full of them, in fact), but I rarely go to that stuff for interpretation unless the Spirit of God specifically leads me there. I go to the Holy Spirit first as my Teacher, and let Him make sense of passages in light of their immediate and surrounding contexts. I usually come away with a clearer understanding of them as a result. It's why I have a fairly high percentage of people who flat cannot answer me during debate, at least comparatively speaking anyway. And I'm not really all that smart in some ways. I'm just smart enough to let God be my Teacher, not man.

amen brother.

 

[for_his_glory]

This is like the holy grail of moderating and running a board, isn't it? If two people (or camps of people) come to the table and lay out their POV's.... Attack the disagreement; not the people. Classic constructive conflict resolution. Often the biggest problem doesn't even lie within the subject of debate: it's in the unproductive conflict resolution methods. Belligerence, pride, avoidance, lack of candor, attitude, poor listening skills.

1Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

 

[brightfame52]

What is predestination ?

It is God’s predetermining all reasonable beings, whether angels or men, to an everlasting domain either of salvation or damnation. 1 Thess 5:9

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

So predestination is comprised of two aspects:251

Election, which is God’s sovereign choosing some men to salvation through Christ. “And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.” {Rom 9:23} “Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.” {Eph1:5}

Reprobation, which is God’s sovereign choosing some, both men and Angels, to destruction. There are some vessels “to dishonor.” {2 Tim 2:20} “To shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.” {Rom 9:22}

 

[Adoration]

I'm just guessing here... but I think most people here are familiar with the definition of predestination.
The problem is with the doctrine of Calvinism.

 

[brightfame52]

The reason we believe is because God predestinated us to be conformed to the image of his Son. Rom 8:28-30 To ensure that his people would be conformed to the image of Christ, God predestinated each one to that conformity to his Son.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

[Norman]

Yes, I do.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Still interested in hearing the Spiritual application of belief in predestination's fruits in feeding the spiritually hungry , giving drink to the spiritually thirsty, clothing the spiritually naked, visiting those alone in spiritual prison ?
When you come across these people in such spiritual desperation do you really believe they are in need of hearing how they too can have a predestined badge of preferment pinned to themselves ?
Or is there some infinitely more paramount truth that you think they need to hear about first and foremost ?

" The Word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart,
that is the Word of faith , which we preach .
That if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead,
thou shalt be saved.
( Romans 10: 8-9 )

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

brightfame52
May I please lovingly add my response?
This is kind of a prickly topic, so I will tread lightly here.

In my studies, I have come to know that God is omniscient - All-knowing throughout all eternity.
He proves it throughout the Old Testament with His prophecies.
God is all-knowing, through all of time, as it says here below.

1 John 3:20, "in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things."

So, if God knows all things, then He already knows who will be true believers at the end, and on the basis of God being all-knowing, we can be predestined, because He knows the outcome of our faith at our end.
God not only calls those who will make it to the end, predestined, but He calls them "the called", "The called out", the "appointed"," Chosen", "foreknew", the "elect", the "Remnant", the "FEW", the "sanctified", and the "consecrated."

When you think in terms of God being all-knowing, throughout all eternity, being omniscient, and He knows who will and who will not endure until the end, it's easy for Him to predestine who He chooses, because He knows the end of each of our stories.
We actually predestine ourselves by our own beliefs, and actions.
God just happens to know all we'll do, to accomplish that.
It seems so simple from God's viewpoint.