Do you need to believe Jesus is God to be saved?

[GodsGrace]

Jesus the Son; the Angel of the LORD, who is the Glory of the Father.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19



All these were done according to the will of God the Father, who is seated upon His throne, and unseen by humans.


No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. John 1:18


The God that was seen in the Old Testament was God the Son, not God the Father.

One of God the Father's titles is "Him who is seated upon the Throne".

Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever... Revelation 4:9-10


JLB

No one has ever seen God. Right.
So how did Moses see God in the burning bush?
God was not visible, only the BB was.

For instance, Exodus 19:18 - God appeared as fire.
In verse 20 it states, I am God, your God....

When God is seen in the OT, it is always an angel or Jesus.

Also when the Abrahamic Covenant was made, God put Abraham into a deep sleep so that he wouldn't see God as He passed through the halved carcasses.

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

I find your situation and the normal Trinitarian position quite amusing. Both ignore what the Scriptures states about God, that man cannot approach unto God or see Him:
1 Timothy 6:13–16 (KJV): 13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; 14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Now despite the above statement, you are saying that Moses directly saw God the Father at the burning bush. I consider that Trinitarians are in a similar precarious position. They have two Persons who make up the One Being of the Trinity, God the Father who it is impossible for man to approach and see, and God the Son who can be seen, but these two Persons are co-equal.

Kind regards
Trevor

I agree with all of the above.

Here's my question:
HOW did Moses see God Father in the burning bush??

Please post the verse because I can't find it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

No. Ehyeh is in the Hebrew Imperfect Tense.

No, The Son that was born to God is Jesus, a human. Gods do not beget Gods.

Yes. Jesus was not revealing God the Son, but he was revealing the One God, Yahweh, God the Father, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

No the "LOGOS" of John 1:1 is a personification, similar to the Wise Woman "WISDOM" of Proverbs 8. God has also always possessed Wisdom.

Kind regards
Trevor

I dislike debating what a word means.
I AM in Exodus means always -- before, now, and after.
It means God is ALWAYS with us....not only now, in the present.

The following is a good explanation.

'I Am Who I Am'? The Meaning of God's Name in Exodus | Biblical Mind

Confusion arises about the meaning of God's name translated “I am” and the related “Yahweh” when we read those terms through Western lenses.

hebraicthought.org

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

I dislike debating what a word means.
I AM in Exodus means always -- before, now, and after.
It means God is ALWAYS with us....not only now, in the present.
The following is a good explanation.

The article states "In Hebrew, the passage uses the verb ehyeh (a form of the word hayah), normally translated “I am” or “I will be.”" The article then gives a scholarly exposition in support of the "I am" translation, and this seems to be about the best argument in support of an erroneous view. It does not actually state that ehyeh is normally translated as "I will be" as per the immediate context Exodus 3:12 and that the translation given in Exodus 3:14 "I AM" is the exception. The motivation to accept this erroneous translation is because of the desire to link this with John 8:58 which should be rendered "I am he".

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JLB]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

The article states "In Hebrew, the passage uses the verb ehyeh (a form of the word hayah), normally translated “I am” or “I will be.”" The article then gives a scholarly exposition in support of the "I am" translation, and this seems to be about the best argument in support of an erroneous view. It does not actually state that ehyeh is normally translated as "I will be" as per the immediate context Exodus 3:12 and that the translation given in Exodus 3:14 "I AM" is the exception. The motivation to accept this erroneous translation is because of the desire to link this with John 8:58 which should be rendered "I am he".

Kind regards
Trevor

What does the meaning of I AM have to do with the Angel of the LORD being God?

Whatever you believe I AM "means" makes no difference, Jesus said He was I AM.

The Angel of the LORD is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The Angel of the LORD is God.



None of these points have been addressed by you. You only talk about what "your bible" says I AM means.

WHATEVER I AM means is what Jesus is.

 

[Runningman]

What does the meaning of I AM have to do with the Angel of the LORD being God?

Whatever you believe I AM "means" makes no difference, Jesus said He was I AM.

The Angel of the LORD is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The Angel of the LORD is God.



None of these points have been addressed by you. You only talk about what "your bible" says I AM means.

WHATEVER I AM means is what Jesus is.

How can Jesus be the I AM when he never said he was and when he isn't the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Acts 3
13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JLB,

WHATEVER I AM means is what Jesus is.

Good logic!! This is an indication of how entrenched is this subterfuge with Trinitarians. Tyndale's "Bible" and the RV and RSV margins got it right. The Trinitarian KJV panel overrode Tyndale and their CofE predecessors had him killed, and nearly all modern translations tread the same path in support of their Trinitarian desperation to find the Trinity in the O.T.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Free]

Greetings again JLB,

Good logic!! This is an indication of how entrenched is this subterfuge with Trinitarians. Tyndale's "Bible" and the RV and RSV margins got it right. The Trinitarian KJV panel overrode Tyndale and their CofE predecessors had him killed, and nearly all modern translations tread the same path in support of their Trinitarian desperation to find the Trinity in the O.T.

Kind regards
Trevor

How do you know for certain that Tyndale, the RV, and the RSV got it right? On what basis are you making that claim?

 

[WalterandDebbie]

How can Jesus be the I AM when he never said he was and when he isn't the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Acts 3
13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus.

Hello Runningman, I ran across this in our studies: https://christianforums.net/threads/reading-more-about-the-i-am.93190/

 

[JLB]

I suggest that this is a very shallow statement. There is a lot of scholarly research into every aspect of the Bible and its translation. You seem to be very close to a NKJV only attitude, and the following comment seems to indicate this.

When compared to scripture, the "scholarly evidence" is merely another opinion of man.

Here is what the scriptures teach us. If you are not interested in what the scriptures teach, and are other interested in the opinions of man, then so be it.


Whether I AM or I will be Jesus claimed that title of YHWH as Himself, and the Jews picked up stones to stone Him for claiming that name.

Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:57-59

Again, here are the points of Exodus 3 that I have made:

1. the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.

Point #1 - The Angel of the LORD is who appeared to Moses and is speaking to Moses.

And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.” Exodus 3:2-3

• I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Point #2 - The Angel of the LORD said He was the God of Abraham, which correlates to Jesus' statement in John 8:58

Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:6

• for he was afraid to look upon God.

Point # 3 - Moses who was looking and speaking with the Angel of the LORD stated as plain as day he was afraid to look upon God.

These 3 points are irrefutable.

 

[JLB]

Acts 3
13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus.

The Son became flesh.

Do you understand this?

As a Man, and a Son, Jesus serves His Father's will.

God, the Son, became flesh.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Free,

How do you know for certain that Tyndale, the RV, and the RSV got it right? On what basis are you making that claim?

I have already given much support to this view. In general, a number of factors. The context, the language, the tense and my personal involvement in this subject. I encountered this subject in a systematic way at a Young People's weekend when I was 19 over 60 years ago and have been interested in this subject ever since.

Our fellowship calls this subject "God Manifestation" and it was expounded by a major pioneer of our fellowship in 1858 when a Trinitarian Jew invited him to address a large audience of Jews who were not responding to his own Trinitarain views. The Trinitarian Jew was very disappointed with his exposition and the pioneer was not allowed to speak again, but the outcome was that the audience was invited to a separate meeting. The detail of his talks was given in his magazine and now in a small book. The pioneer also gave a more thorough exposition in 1868. There has been much more exposition since then.

When I first joined a forum over 20 years ago, there was a long running thread on the subject "I will be" and the member's exposition was very thorough and convincing. Two of the Trinitarians at first disagreed, and in the end agreed with him. One of these Trinitarians was still active as a Hebrew scholar on that forum a few years ago, and he confirmed to me that he still agreed with "I will be".

I find no real meaning in the Trinitarian view of Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58 and the Trinitarians ignore a proper understanding of the contexts.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JLB,

Whether I AM or I will be Jesus claimed that title of YHWH as Himself, and the Jews picked up stones to stone Him for claiming that name.
Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:57-59

I notice that you avoid quoting the verse before this. Question: When did Abraham rejoice to see the day of the Messiah?
John 8:56 (KJV): Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JLB]

So how did Moses see God in the burning bush?

He wasn't seeing God the Father.

No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
John 1:18

In this passage the context and language are referring to God the Father.

They were seeing God the Son.


And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Exodus 3:2
Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:6

The Angel of the LORD is the God of Abraham.

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1

Jesus is YHWH, the LORD God Almighty. He is not God the Father.

Jesus before He became flesh made covenant with Abraham.

Words of Christ in red -

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Revelation 1:8


And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?”
So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the LORD. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on— it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar—the Angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. When the Angel of the LORD appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the LORD.
And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!” Judges 13:18-22

 

[GodsGrace]

He wasn't seeing God the Father.

No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
John 1:18

In this passage the context and language are referring to God the Father.

They were seeing God the Son.


And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Exodus 3:2
Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:6

The Angel of the LORD is the God of Abraham.

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1

Jesus is YHWH, the LORD God Almighty. He is not God the Father.

Jesus before He became flesh made covenant with Abraham.

Words of Christ in red -

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Revelation 1:8


And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?”
So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the LORD. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on— it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar—the Angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. When the Angel of the LORD appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the LORD.
And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!” Judges 13:18-22

Are you saying that Moses saw not only the flame, but a vision of our Lord?

The word APPEAR would seem to confirm this.

 

[JLB]

Are you saying that Moses saw not only the flame, but a vision of our Lord?

The word APPEAR would seem to confirm this.

Not a vision; He saw the LORD, Jesus Christ the Son, before He became flesh.

Remember, angels are called sons of God.

Therefore, the Angel of the LORD would be The Son of God.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16


Not God the Father, but God the Son was manifested in the flesh.





JLB

 

[JLB]

HOW did Moses see God Father in the burning bush??

He didn't. He saw God the Son; The Son of God; The Angel of the LORD.

 

[Runningman]

The Son became flesh.

Do you understand this?

As a Man, and a Son, Jesus serves His Father's will.

God, the Son, became flesh.

I understand what you're saying, but I am saying it is not scripture.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

Many scholars reject that version of 1 Timothy 3:16 because it doesn't appear to be an original. Many well read, well studied, highly qualified, Trinitarians, though admittedly with difficulty and defeat, admit 1 Timothy 3:16 with "God was manifested in the flesh" isn't Scripture.

Here's Metzger's commentary on it:

Bruce Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament

"[“He who”] is supported by the earliest and best uncials…no uncial (in the first hand) earlier than the eighth or ninth century supports theos; all ancient versions presuppose hos or ho [“he who” or “he”]; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading theos. The reading theos arose either(a) accidentally, or (b) deliberately, either to supply a substantive for the following six verbs [the six verbs that follow in the verse], or, with less probability, to provide greater dogmatic precision [i.e., to produce a verse that more clearly supports the Trinitarian position].”

 

[Runningman]

Words of Christ in red -

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Revelation 1:8

Those aren't the words of Christ. Most versions do not put this verse in red because in the context it isn't Jesus talking. Let's look at it in your KJV or NKJV.

In the context the "from Him which is, and which was, and which is to come" is God. Then there is "And from Jesus Christ..." The only one being referred to as the One Who is the "which was, and which is to come" is God. Jesus was never called this. This is why no modern versions make those words red. I would advise you also stop after reading this.

Revelation 1 (KJV)
4John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

 

[Runningman]

Greetings again JLB,

I notice that you avoid quoting the verse before this. Question: When did Abraham rejoice to see the day of the Messiah?
John 8:56 (KJV): Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Kind regards
Trevor

He didn't literally "see" it, but in faith he understood it. Seeing is understanding.

Hebrews 11 says this of Abraham:

Hebrews 11
13All these people died in faith, without having received the things they were promised. However, they saw them and welcomed them from afar. And they acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth