Do you need to believe Jesus is God to be saved?

[Alfred Persson]

My experience is that the simplest and most logical explanation of things is ususally the correct one. The Trinity graph proves how llogical and incoherent it is. Trinitarians can't admit that the doctrine originated from Catholicism, a Church they often label as false and anti-Christ.

Google Image Result for https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/trinity/Moonity.png

The hypostatic union basically whitewashes all the contradictions of co-equality. Why not just believe Jesus when he said he doesn't know when he'll return or that the Father is greater?

AnotherOne major contradiction is the problem that 'if' Jesus was God and we know God cannot be tempted and cannot sin, that means that Jesus "being God" could not have been tempted to sin anyway because after all - he's God! That alone makes the cross a hoax and of no effect and makes Jesus is a fraud. Jesus was anointed but fully man.

Hebrews 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like them,[k] FULLY HUMAN IN EVERY WAY, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

I agree Ockham's (Occam's) razor is usually the correct interpretation of events. I disagree God or the Holy Trinity violates the principle. The most parsimonious (simplest) explanation of the scriptures showing Three Persons in One Name have same titles and acts ascribed to them, is the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.

The Holy Trinity was not created at Nicaea, it was made official.

Christ commanded disciples be made who are baptized in the One Name of God, in which three Divine Persons subsist equally and to obey this teaching:

19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. (Matt. 28:19-20 NKJ)

No diagram or math can represent the Compound Unity in the Godhead, they all fail. For example, 1x1x1=1 but that inaccurately implies one Person three times. As for the diagrams you pointed to, they are also inaccurate. To deny the Trinity based upon such unscriptural data is a violation of Occam's Razor.

Hypostatic Union also is the parsimonious interpretation of the data that shows the Sphere of Infinite Radius that is God the Son, became centered in the humanity born of a virgin by the Holy Spirit's causing her to conceive, an act of creation. So Christ made Himself of "no reputation" adding to Himself human nature, without ceasing to be God the Son. And Christ limited His access to deity while a man on earth, so His experience was "on all points" just like us but without sin:

For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. (Heb. 4:15 NKJ)

The scriptural evidence for the Holy Trinity is overwhelming, a mass of irrefutable infallible data that has led the vast majority of Christendom, Orthodox Catholic and Protestant, to profess it.

 

[Whatever]

1) God is immutable (Malachi 3:6a For I the Lord do not change; Hebrews 13:8; James 1:17; Job 23:13; etc.

I don't see the theological term "immutable" in any of those verses. This is something taught in systematic theologies.
Mal 3:6 "For I am the LORD, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.

I believe what is being said above is that God made a promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and will honor it.
Lev 26:44 Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and break My covenant with them; for I am the LORD their God.
Lev 26:45 But for their sake I will remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.' "

In that Malachi passage God is not saying "I am immutable," but I will not change my mind about the covenant I made with your ancestors.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
I like the way Vincent's Word Studies says it:
The readers were tempted to surrender this faith and to return to Judaism which denied Jesus's messiahship (comp. Heb_10:29). Hence the writer says, “hold fast and imitate their faith in Jesus as the Christ. He is ever the same. He must be to you, today, what he was to them, yesterday, and will be forever to the heavenly hosts. . . .
Job 23:13 "But He is unique, and who can make Him change? And whatever His soul desires, that He does.
This passage seems to be more about God's sovereignty than immutability. All of the passages below seem to be about God's sovereignty:
Job 9:12-13; Job 10:7; Job 11:10; Job 12:14; Job 34:29; Job 42:2,

Immutability is something taught in systematic theologies. What do you think if the doctrine of God's impassibility?
Classic theism teaches that God is impassible — not subject to suffering, pain, or the ebb and flow of involuntary passions.
Eph_4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, . . .
Sounds like the Holy Spirit can have the involuntary passion of being grieved.
Psalm 78:40 How often they rebelled against Him in the wilderness And grieved Him in the desert!
Isaiah 63:10 But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them.

Wonder if we have gone to far and too technical in out theologies.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Immutability is something taught in systematic theologies.

Agreed, hundreds of theologians gathering information together and coming to a conclusion ... and I think with good reasons, some of which is expounded upon like: If God changes then He becomes either better or worse than He was which implies that at one time He was not perfect. If God changes that there must be an external cause from outside himself to cause a change but assuming God is the only existing eternal being and He created all things and controls all things there is nothing that can cause change in Him. If God can change then there is the possibility that anything He has promised is subject to change .... yahda, yahda, yahda

What do you think if the doctrine of God's impassibility?

I agree with it. I can see where you would make the logical connection to immutability.

Eph_4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, . . .
Sounds like the Holy Spirit can have the involuntary passion of being grieved.

To the degree that God does something in an involuntary way He is controlled by that cause. Theologians I agree with say God is uncaused; that He is the First Cause of all things; that God does not learn which would make Him an EFFECT of some outside CAUSE. Unless there is more than one eternal entity, the Law of Causality when applied shows God causes all things and is never an effect.

Psalm 78:40 How often they rebelled against Him in the wilderness And grieved Him in the desert!
Isaiah 63:10 But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them.

I can understand where you are coming from when you make these points.
I would state the God uses Analogies to get a point across. That we can't understand Him on His level and He has to dumb things down for us to understand. Let's consider the consequences of God having emotions (impassibility):
I'll just quote someone else who is smarter than I and a better writer ...
The immutability of God implies the IMPASSIBILITY of God. This means that God is without "passions" – emotions or feelings. Less thoughtful believers protest against the doctrine, since they misapply biblical passages that seem to describe a God who experiences emotions such as grief, joy, and wrath (Psalm 78:40; Isaiah 62:5; Revelation 19:15). Passages that appear to ascribe emotions to God are anthropopathic.

The view that God experiences emotions like men appear to entail a number of contradictions: A man may become angry against his will in the sense that he does not choose to become angry, and he does not choose to experience whatever causes the anger, but that the "trigger" incites this emotion in him against his preference. This applies to human experiences of joy, fear, grief, and so on. However, this cannot be true with God even if he were to experience emotions, because such lack of self-control contradicts his omniscience, sovereignty (He controls all events), and immutability (He is not merry one moment and sad another for God is eternal; He has no succession of moments).

Since God is omniscient, he cannot be surprised, and this at least eliminates certain ways of experiencing emotions.

Perhaps the reply is that all facts are simultaneously present to God, so that the insult that angers him is always happening "now" [God has no succession of moments]. But this would imply that God must be angry about this one insult throughout eternity, and not just when it happens. If so, then God's emotions would not offer us the kind of interactivity that proponents of divine emotions are after. In any case, suppose something happens that alleviates this anger. Of course, the only way is forgiveness through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. But since God knows Christ's sacrifice just as well as the man's insult, we are at a loss as to whether he is ever angry or not. The mental experiment results in absurdity, because the truth is that God is not like man. Isaiah 58:8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord.

Then, if an action of mine can cause anger in God in a similar way that I can cause anger in a man, then this means that I can cause anger in God by my power. To the degree that he lacks self-control, he is helpless against my efforts to cause anger in him. Likewise, if an action of mine can produce joy in God in a similar way that I can produce joy in a man, then this means that I have the ability to produce joy in God at will. In this manner, I would exercise a significant measure of control over God. But this contradicts his sovereignty [independence] and immutability. (Job 35:7-8a; Job 22:2-3; Romans 11:34-35; Isaiah 40:13; Acts 17:25, see Aseity (independence) of God)

The matter becomes much more complex when we take into account that he knows all the thoughts and actions of his creatures in all of history simultaneously. But it is enough to consider all the billions of people who anger him at any point in time, and the thousands or at least hundreds of people who please him at the same time. How is it possible for him to be angry with two billion people in a sense like man's anger and pleased with two hundred people, also in the human sense, at the same time? If the answer is that God's mind is immense, so that he is not subject to human limitations, then our point is also established.

Therefore, some form of divine impassibility is necessary. If God is angered by our sins, it is only because he wills to be angered by them, and not because his mental state is subject to our will or beyond his control. Even if God has emotions, they are under his control, and they will never compromise his divine attributes. And since they cannot compromise the divine attributes, this also means that even if he has emotions, he does not have them in a way that is similar to man. But then we wonder why we would still call them emotions. Thus at least in this sense and to this extent, we must affirm that God is without passions.

Love also is not an emotion in the Bible, but a volition. His love is uncaused (uninfluenced) as God is independent (Ephesians 1:4). Since God loves His people in Christ, it is not regulated by their fruitfulness, but is the same at all times. Because He loves them in Christ, the Father loves them as Christ. The time will come when His prayer will be answered, “that the world may know that thou hast sent Me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved Me” (John 17:23).

Jesus experienced emotions, but what can we infer from this? He also experienced hunger and fatigue (Matthew 21:18; Luke 4:2; John 4:6), but this only proves that the Son of God took upon himself a human nature. Just as Jesus in his divine nature did not experience hunger or fatigue, he in his divine nature did not experience emotions. Only his human nature experienced hunger, fatigue, and emotions. Those instances when he experienced emotions were indeed disturbances of the mind (Mark 14:34), and since Hebrews 4:15 says that he never sinned, we conclude that not every disturbance of the mind is sinful. - Vincent Cheung

 

[Whatever]

I agree with everything you have said. I am just getting old and ornery (Cantankerous, stubborn, disagreeable).

I remember all these theologians talking about the perspicuity of Scripture. And then they write 10,000 pages of commentary to tell us what Scripture means.

 

[cherithbrook]

No one has to adhere to the teachings of a trinity in order to be saved. Believing that Jesus is God as a prerequisite to salvation is not mentioned anywhere in the Holy Bible- not one place.

On top of that, Jesus never said he was God, and God never said Jesus was God, so uhmmm... why is man saying it?

The only thing one has to do in order to be saved is believe by faith that Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins, that God raised Jesus from the dead, and that Jesus is coming back again. One must accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior and they are saved, Amen. Jesus paid the sacrificial blood price for our sins; the trinity did not pay any kind of price whatsoever.

Remember what Peter said when Jesus asked who do "YOU" say that I am? knowing and confessing that Jesus is the Son of the living God is the rock on which Jesus built his church and gives us the kingdom of heaven for believing. Salvation has nothing to do with a trinity.

Matthew 16:
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you thatyou are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not[g]prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth [h]will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

 

[cherithbrook]

Thinking that a Trinity = salvation reminds me of Jimmy Swaggart who teaches that
receiving the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues = salvation. Both are incorrect false teachings.

 

[Alfred Persson]

No one has to adhere to the teachings of a trinity in order to be saved. Believing that Jesus is God as a prerequisite to salvation is not mentioned anywhere in the Holy Bible- not one place.

On top of that, Jesus never said he was God, and God never said Jesus was God, so uhmmm... why is man saying it?

The only thing one has to do in order to be saved is believe by faith that Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins, that God raised Jesus from the dead, and that Jesus is coming back again. One must accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior and they are saved, Amen. Jesus paid the sacrificial blood price for our sins; the trinity did not pay any kind of price whatsoever.

Remember what Peter said when Jesus asked who do "YOU" say that I am? knowing and confessing that Jesus is the Son of the living God is the rock on which Jesus built his church and gives us the kingdom of heaven for believing. Salvation has nothing to do with a trinity.

Matthew 16:
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you thatyou are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not[g]prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth [h]will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Although I agree salvation isn't dependent upon theologically accurate knowledge of the Holy Trinity, it does require knowing Jesus is the "Son of God" which means much more than you imply. Pagans like Pilate believed the gods had "sons" who were more than human, and its why he was afraid when he heard Jesus' claim:

7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
8 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid;
9 And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer. (Jn. 19:7-9 KJV)

When you look up the phrase "Son of God" in the gospels its clear this a claim to an intimate relationship with God surpassing anything possible with normal men.

Satan cites the claim as meaning Christ can do God like miracles. Demons cite it in fear. The jews cite it as proof Christ blasphemed. The pagan Centurian confesses Christ must be "divine". Therefore, when Christ declares Peter blessed because "the Father" supernaturally revealed Jesus is the "Son of God", it was a confession Jesus truly is Deity, the "only begotten Son of God (John 1:14, 18).

KJV Matt. 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
KJV Matt. 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
KJV Matt. 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
KJV Matt. 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
KJV Matt. 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
KJV Matt. 27:40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.
KJV Matt. 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
KJV Matt. 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
KJV Mk. 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
KJV Mk. 3:11 And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.
KJV Mk. 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.
KJV Lk. 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
KJV Lk. 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
KJV Lk. 4:3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.
KJV Lk. 4:9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:
KJV Lk. 4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.
KJV Lk. 8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.
KJV Lk. 22:70 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.
KJV Jn. 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
KJV Jn. 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
KJV Jn. 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
KJV Jn. 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
KJV Jn. 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
KJV Jn. 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
KJV Jn. 11:4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.
KJV Jn. 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
KJV Jn. 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
KJV Jn. 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

 

[electedbyHim]

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John’s description of the Word reached its pinnacle in the final clause of this opening verse. Not only did the Word exist from all eternity, and have face-to-face fellowship with the Father, but also “the Word was God.” That simple statement, only four words in both English and Greek (theos ~en ho logos), is perhaps the clearest and most direct declaration of the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ to be found anywhere in Scripture.

But despite their clarity, heretical groups almost from the moment John penned these words have twisted their meaning to support their false doctrines concerning the nature of the Lord Jesus Christ. Noting that the Greek term theos (“God”) is anarthrous (not preceded by the definite article), some argue that it is an indefinite noun and mistranslate the phrase, “the Word was divine” (i.e., merely possessing some of the qualities of God) or, even more appalling, “the Word was a god.”

The absence of the article before theos, however, does not make it indefinite. Logos (“Word”) has the definite article to show that it is the subject of the sentence (since it is in the same case as theos). Thus the rendering “God was the Word,” is invalid, because “the Word,” not “God,” is the subject. It would also be theologically incorrect, because it would equate the Father (“God” whom the Word was with in the preceding clause) with the Word, thus denying that the two are separate persons. The predicate nominative (“God”) describes the nature of the Word, showing that He is of the same essence as the Father.5

According to the rules of Greek grammar, when the predicate nominative (“God” in this clause) precedes the verb, it cannot be considered indefinite (and thus translated “a god” instead of “God”) merely because it does not have the article. That the term “God” is definite and refers to the true God is obvious for several reasons. First, theos appears without the definite article four other times in the immediate context (vv. 6, 12, 13, 18; cf. 3:2, 21; 9:16; Matt. 5:9). Not even the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ distorted translation of the Bible renders the anarthrous theos “a god” in those verses. Second, if John’s meaning was that the Word was divine, or a god, there were ways he could have phrased it to make that unmistakably clear. For example, if he meant to say that the Word was merely in some sense divine, he could have used the adjective theios (cf. 2 Peter 1:4). It must be remembered that, as Robert L. Reymond notes, “No standard Greek lexicon offers ‘divine’ as one of the meanings of theos, nor does the noun become an adjective when it ‘sheds’ its article.”6 Or if John had wanted to say that the Word was a god, he could have written ho logos ēn theos. If the apostle had written ho theos ēn ho logos, the two nouns (theos and logos) would be interchangeable, and God and the Word would be identical. That would have meant that the Father was the Word, which, as noted above, would deny the Trinity. But as Leon Morris asks rhetorically, “How else [other than theos ēn ho logos] in Greek would one say, ‘the Word was God’?”7

Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, John chose the precise wording that accurately conveys the true nature of the Word, Jesus Christ. “By theos without the article, John neither indicates, on the one hand, identity of Person with the Father; nor yet, on the other, any lower nature than that of God Himself.”8

Underscoring their significance, John restated the profound truths of verse 1 in verse 2. He emphasized again the eternity of the Word; He already was in existence in the beginning when everything else was created. As it did in verse 1, the imperfect tense of the verb “was” (eimi) describes the Word’s continuous existence before the beginning. And as John also noted in verse 1, that existence was one of intimate fellowship with God the Father.


The truth of Jesus Christ’s deity and full equality with the Father is a nonnegotiable element of the Christian faith. In 2 John 10, John warned, “If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching [the biblical teaching concerning Christ; cf. vv. 7, 9], do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting.” Believers are not to aid heretical false teachers in any way, including giving them food and lodging, since the one who does so “participates in [their] evil deeds” (v. 11). Such seemingly uncharitable behavior is perfectly justified toward false teachers who deny the deity of our Lord and the gospel, since they are under God’s curse:

There are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! (Gal. 1:7–9)

Emphasizing their deadly danger, both Paul (Acts 20:29) and Jesus (Matt. 7:15) described false teachers as wolves in disguise. They are not to be welcomed into the sheepfold, but guarded against and avoided.

Confusion about the deity of Christ is inexcusable, because the biblical teaching regarding it is clear and unmistakable. Jesus Christ is the eternally preexistent Word, who enjoys face-to-face communion and divine life with the Father, and is Himself God.[1]







5 Cf. H. E. Dana and Julius R. Mantey, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament (Toronto: MacMillan, 1957), 139–40; A. T. Robertson, The Minister and His Greek New Testament (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1978), 67–68.

6 Robert L. Reymond Jesus, Divine Messiah (Philipsburg, N. J.: Presb. & Ref., 1990), 303.

7 Leon Morris, The Gospel According to John, The New International Commentary on the New Testament (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1979], 77 n. 15.

8 H. A. W. Meyer, Critical and Exegetical Hand-Book to the Gospel of John (Reprint; Winona Lake, Ind.: Alpha, 1979), 48.

[1] John MacArthur, The Deity of Christ, ed. Jim Vincent, MacArthur Study Series (Chicago, IL; Los Angeles: Moody Publishers; The Master’s Seminary Press, 2017), 19–22.

 

[Free]

No one has to adhere to the teachings of a trinity in order to be saved. Believing that Jesus is God as a prerequisite to salvation is not mentioned anywhere in the Holy Bible- not one place.

I agree. But a person who is truly saved will not reject and argue against the deity of Jesus.

On top of that, Jesus never said he was God, and God never said Jesus was God, so uhmmm... why is man saying it?

Because Jesus do claim to be God and the NT teaches that Jesus is both truly God and truly man. Since the NT says that Jesus is the God-man, then that is to also say that God says Jesus is God.

The only thing one has to do in order to be saved is believe by faith that Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins, that God raised Jesus from the dead, and that Jesus is coming back again. One must accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior and they are saved, Amen. Jesus paid the sacrificial blood price for our sins; the trinity did not pay any kind of price whatsoever.

Remember what Peter said when Jesus asked who do "YOU" say that I am? knowing and confessing that Jesus is the Son of the living God is the rock on which Jesus built his church and gives us the kingdom of heaven for believing. Salvation has nothing to do with a trinity.

Matthew 16:
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you thatyou are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not[g]prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth [h]will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

So, the question is, what does it mean that Jesus is the Son of God? The Jews (correctly) understood that by claiming God to be his Father, Jesus was making himself equal to God. Hence, the most important question we can ask is: “Who do you think that I am?”

JWs believe Jesus is the Son of God but was only a man. Mormons believe Jesus is the Son of God but take it literally as the result of procreation between the Father and his celestial wife. Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God—God in human flesh—and as such, is truly both God and man.

Who is right? Can we really believe whatever we want about Jesus? Only one of those is the biblical Jesus that died for our sins and rose again.

 

[Josef]

No one has to adhere to the teachings of a trinity in order to be saved. Believing that Jesus is God as a prerequisite to salvation is not mentioned anywhere in the Holy Bible- not one place.

On top of that, Jesus never said he was God, and God never said Jesus was God, so uhmmm... why is man saying it?

The only thing one has to do in order to be saved is believe by faith that Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins, that God raised Jesus from the dead, and that Jesus is coming back again. One must accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior and they are saved, Amen. Jesus paid the sacrificial blood price for our sins; the trinity did not pay any kind of price whatsoever.

Remember what Peter said when Jesus asked who do "YOU" say that I am? knowing and confessing that Jesus is the Son of the living God is the rock on which Jesus built his church and gives us the kingdom of heaven for believing. Salvation has nothing to do with a trinity.

Matthew 16:
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you thatyou are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not[g]prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth [h]will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Hey All,
It is true that you do not need to know that Jesus is God to believe in Him. But as we study and learn of just who Jesus is, we have to look at the evidence presented, and believe what it says.

God created all life here on earth. He is the giver of life. To be raised from the dead would truly be an act of God.

Who raised Jesus from the dead?
Simple question, right?
God is the only giver of life.
So it would be fair to say that whoever raised Jesus from the dead has to be God.

Acts 2:31-32 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Romans 6:3-4 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

So the Bible confirms this. God raised Jesus from the dead. (Did you ever see those cheesy late night infomercials?) But wait! There's more! That's not the end of it. Jesus makes it more complicated. He said:

John 2:19-21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
But he spake of the temple of his body.

Jesus said He would raise Himself up. But only God has the power to give life. If God raised Jesus from the dead, and Jesus also raised Himself from the dead, and both have be true, what alternative to Jesus being God do we have? (You guessed it.) But wait! There's more!
Oh, by the way, there is another Who is given credit for raising Jesus from the dead.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Romans 1:3-4 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

So it can be argued that the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead as well. Now what? The Bible doesn't lie. All three proclamations have to be true.

The Father, being God, nobody has a problem with. The Holy Spirit, being the Spirit of God, would have this attribute through His part of being God. Most people do not have a problem with the Holy Spirit being God. He is within each believer, and is our comforter. So we can identify with Him as being supernatural. Plus, the apostles identified Him as God. Acts 5.

Acts 5:3-4 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

If lying to the Holy Spirit is the equivalent of lying to God, then the Holy Spirit and God must be equivalent. That stands to reason.

If there is a problem, it is usually with Jesus.
If Jesus is just a man, I have a problem with what John wrote. No man has the power to raise himself from the dead; only God. The solution to this problem is that Jesus must be God to have this attribute. This is hard to ignore. I cannot.

Come to a different conclusion based on the evidence the Bible presented using the only presumption; that all of verses are telling us the truth.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[cherithbrook]

Although I agree salvation isn't dependent upon theologically accurate knowledge of the Holy Trinity, it does require knowing Jesus is the "Son of God" which means much more than you imply. Pagans like Pilate believed the gods had "sons" who were more than human, and its why he was afraid when he heard Jesus' claim:

I did imply that one must know and confess Jesus the Son of God, and I posted Matthew 16:15-17 in reference to it as well. Thanks for your information.

 

[cherithbrook]

Hey All,
It is true that you do not need to know that Jesus is God to believe in Him. But as we study and learn of just who Jesus is, we have to look at the evidence presented, and believe what it says.

God created all life here on earth. He is the giver of life. To be raised from the dead would truly be an act of God.

Who raised Jesus from the dead?
Simple question, right?
God is the only giver of life.
So it would be fair to say that whoever raised Jesus from the dead has to be God.

Acts 2:31-32 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Romans 6:3-4 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

So the Bible confirms this. God raised Jesus from the dead. (Did you ever see those cheesy late night infomercials?) But wait! There's more! That's not the end of it. Jesus makes it more complicated. He said:

John 2:19-21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
But he spake of the temple of his body.

Jesus said He would raise Himself up. But only God has the power to give life. If God raised Jesus from the dead, and Jesus also raised Himself from the dead, and both have be true, what alternative to Jesus being God do we have? (You guessed it.) But wait! There's more!
Oh, by the way, there is another Who is given credit for raising Jesus from the dead.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Romans 1:3-4 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

So it can be argued that the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead as well. Now what? The Bible doesn't lie. All three proclamations have to be true.

The Father, being God, nobody has a problem with. The Holy Spirit, being the Spirit of God, would have this attribute through His part of being God. Most people do not have a problem with the Holy Spirit being God. He is within each believer, and is our comforter. So we can identify with Him as being supernatural. Plus, the apostles identified Him as God. Acts 5.

Acts 5:3-4 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

If lying to the Holy Spirit is the equivalent of lying to God, then the Holy Spirit and God must be equivalent. That stands to reason.

If there is a problem, it is usually with Jesus.
If Jesus is just a man, I have a problem with what John wrote. No man has the power to raise himself from the dead; only God. The solution to this problem is that Jesus must be God to have this attribute. This is hard to ignore. I cannot.

Come to a different conclusion based on the evidence the Bible presented using the only presumption; that all of verses are telling us the truth.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

Thank you for all of that wonderful information.

 

[JT4444]

No one comes to the Father except through Christ. That is fundamental to Christianity.

Does that mean that everyone in history who has never heard the name of Jesus is damned? No, I don't think so. A just God would not allow that. But there has to be a way for God to decide on the eternal fate of people who have never heard the Gospel. Jesus hints at this when He says that those who truly knew Abraham would know Him.

 

[Fastfredy0]

On top of that, Jesus never said he was God, and God never said Jesus was God, so uhmmm.

The Bible says Jesus is God...Philip said "my Lord and my God" and if you believe the Bible was written by the inspiration of God then you are left with God said Jesus is God.
Also, several verses state salvation has a prerequisite being the belief that Jesus is the "Son of God":
John 8:23 He said to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 “for you will die in your sins unless you believe that I am he.” Note: [John 20:31 and 1 John 5:13 also support the idea that one must believe Christ is divine; as well as: 1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit ]

John 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe [with a deep, abiding trust] that Jesus is the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed), the Son of God; and that by believing [and trusting in and relying on Him] you may have life in His name. If "Son of God" means Jesus is the 2nd person of the Trinity then basically you're saying one must believe Christ is God to be saved. "To be the Son of God is to be of the same nature as God. The Son of God is “of God.” The claim to be of the same nature as God—to in fact be God". ... https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-Son-of-God.html

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Fastfred0,

John 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe [with a deep, abiding trust] that Jesus is the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed), the Son of God; and that by believing [and trusting in and relying on Him] you may have life in His name. If "Son of God" means Jesus is the 2nd person of the Trinity then basically you're saying one must believe Christ is God to be saved.

No, Jesus is a human, the Son of God, now glorified, sitting at the right hand of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father, in God the Father's Throne and he is the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Alfred Persson]

I did imply that one must know and confess Jesus the Son of God, and I posted Matthew 16:15-17 in reference to it as well. Thanks for your information.

In my case, I knew Jesus was somehow God the Son, and the Holy Spirit a Person (Ac. 13:2 convinced me), but how this was all true wasn't clear at all. I only knew I needed Jesus more than life itself, that He was the only way to salvation. And God saved me after I publicly confessed Jesus is LORD and that God raised Him from the dead.

Afterward, I devoured books on the subject and God opened my mind up to receive Orthodox Trinitarian truth.

God saved me from becoming a baptized JW. I found a copy of "Apostles of Denial" by Edmond Gruss at the library and took it home "to debunk it". The proofs showing Christ is God the Son went over my head, but Acts 13:2 where the Holy Spirit uses personal pronouns "I" and "Me" convinced me the Watchtower was wrong, an active force cannot say "I" or "Me":

2 As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, "Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
3 Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away.
4 So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus.
(Acts 13:2-4 NKJ)

 

[Fastfredy0]

No, Jesus is a human, the Son of God, now glorified, sitting at the right hand of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father, in God the Father's Throne and he is the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

Well, I agree with your statement.
The point of the discussion is whether or not Jesus is God. I gave verses indicating Jesus is God, you did not. Give a verse saying "Jesus is not God".
More to the point .... I showed where it seems that the belief the Jesus is God is needed for salvation.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Fastfred0,

Give a verse saying "Jesus is not God".

John 10:29–38 (KJV): 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 20:28–31 (KJV): 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Fastfredy0]

But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

The verse says the the Father and the Son are in each other ... both God

that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

I already showed that the term SON OF GOD refers to deity. https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-Son-of-God.html

 

[cherithbrook]

1. agree. But a person who is truly saved will not reject and argue against the deity of Jesus.

2. Because Jesus do claim to be God and the NT teaches that Jesus is both truly God and truly man. Since the NT says that Jesus is the God-man, then that is to also say that God says Jesus is God.

3. So, the question is, what does it mean that Jesus is the Son of God? The Jews (correctly) understood that by claiming God to be his Father, Jesus was making himself equal to God. Hence, the most important question we can ask is: “Who do you think that I am?”

4. JWs believe Jesus is the Son of God but was only a man. Mormons believe Jesus is the Son of God but take it literally as the result of procreation between the Father and his celestial wife. Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God—God in human flesh—and as such, is truly both God and man.

5. Who is right? Can we really believe whatever we want about Jesus? Only one of those is the biblical Jesus that died for our sins and rose again.

1. To me Jesus is the Son of God, and the Lord our God is One. I cannot make Jesus anything higher than the Son of God. Out of the mouth of God, he says this is my beloved Son... Peter refers to Jesus as the Son of the living God, and Jesus agrees with Peter. As much as many want to make Jesus out to be a deity, Jesus is not all knowing. Jesus tells us he is not all knowing. Unless someone is going to dumb down requirements for a deity and exclude all knowing; Jesus does not seem to fit. Jesus is the Son of God. I do acknowledge the deity of God Almighty our Creator.
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

2. Jesus would never "claim" to be anything. Everything that Jesus is the Word of God plainly tells us more than once. We would never ever have to try really hard to figure out what he's trying to say. Both God and Peter tell us Jesus is the Son of God. The witness of two or more should establish; except when it does not agree with someone's theology or culture. As far as people saying Jesus is man and God. There is no scripture any where in the Bible to back that up. I hope they are not referring to John 1:14 which states that:
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 1:14 plainly tells us again that Jesus is the Son of God. It also states that the Word of God became flesh in Jesus, and the Word of God likewise should become flesh in all believers. That has nothing to do with Jesus being man can God.

3. What it means to be the Son of God... it means that you are the beloved Son, the begotten of the Father, and God is Jesus' Father. You say the Jews (correctly) understood however, the Jews were the most twisted and hard of hearing when it came to Jesus and the New Covenant. Jesus told them he was the Son of God and they refused to believe him, so they made up a lie claiming Jesus was making himself equal to God by saying he is the Son of God. Jesus never made himself equal to God.
Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

4. All Christians do not believe that Jesus is God in human flesh. There is no Bible for that. All Christians do not believe that Jesus is both God and man as there is no Bible scripture for that. Jesus is not the author of confusion. Jesus tell us he is the Son of God, God tells us Jesu is his beloved God, Peter tells us that Jesus is the Son of the living God. That is what a Christian should believe. Believe what is written.

5. Amen, to what you said for number five. It is God who is right. If people won't believe Jesus, and if they won't believe Peter they should believe God that Jesus is God's beloved Son that God told us "Hear Him" Blessings.