Do you support OSAS(once saved always saved)?

[Deborah13]

I'm trying to figure out if a person could be led by the teachings of a false teacher and never hear the truth. Would they be sent to hell? It seems like God would somehow reveal the truth through another person perhaps.

To me a false teacher is someone who takes away or adds to the simple message of Christs atoning work on the cross and His resurrection. This is the Gospel (the Good News).

I believe that if a person sincerely in their heart seeks to know our Lord, the Father will bring them into that knowledge. He sees the heart of a man and because He does not desire that any should parish, He will respond to that seeking heart.
What's interesting is that it all comes back to the Lord. In that no man would seek Him if He did not reach out first to all men.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

To me a false teacher is someone who takes away or adds to the simple message of Christs atoning work on the cross and His resurrection.

But what about those who are doing that, but not consciously? I think that is the jist of his inquiry.

Should we be calling them false teachers?

I believe that if a person sincerely in their heart seeks to know our Lord, the Father will bring them into that knowledge. He sees the heart of a man and because He does not desire that any should parish, He will respond to that seeking heart.
What's interesting is that it all comes back to the Lord. In that no man would seek Him if He did not reach out first to all men.

Non-OSAS believes this very same thing. But somehow according to OSAS, free will to either accept or reject the gospel makes it a works gospel that robs the 'grace' out of salvation.

It's interesting to see how a fundamental misunderstanding of 'grace' in Paul's grace/works-law teaching is what gives strength to the 'OSAS/ predetermined believers' doctrines in the church today....doctrines summed up in 'I'm saved and there's nothing I can do about it, because if I could, salvation would no longer be grace'. Which is hardly what Paul was teaching.

 

[Chopper]

So what I hear you saying is that some scriptures point to OSAS and some point to non-OSAS, then there must be both.

That is correct Deb. Scripture absolutely refers to two class, if you will, Ephesians Chapter 1:3-6 Verse 4 says "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him in love". And then in Verse 5 it says "predestined...for the purpose of His will. Those people are His remnant destined to carry out His will. They, because God chose them, will not loose what God gave them. they are OSAS.

The ones who come thru the General Call of the Gospel, because of the witness of the remnant, must continue in their faith of what Christ did for them. There will be false prophets who spill out poisen doctrine to deceive these people and those people must beware. They are non OSAS

Hi Chopper,

I would submit that that passage in Ephesians 1,those who were chosen from the foundation of the world is speaking of the Jews.

Does it say Jews?
.

 

[Deborah13]

But what about those who are doing that, but not consciously? I think that is the jist of his inquiry.

Should we be calling them false teachers?



Non-OSAS believes this very same thing. But somehow according to OSAS, free will to either accept or reject the gospel makes it a works gospel that robs the 'grace' out of salvation.

It's interesting to see how a fundamental misunderstanding of 'grace' in Paul's grace/works-law teaching is what gives strength to the 'OSAS/ predetermined believers' doctrines in the church today....doctrines summed up in 'I'm saved and there's nothing I can do about it, because if I could, salvation would no longer be grace'. Which is hardly what Paul was teaching.

You said,
"Non-OSAS believes this very same thing. But somehow according to OSAS, free will to either accept or reject the gospel makes it a works gospel that robs the 'grace' out of salvation."

MANY OSAS believers believe that one is free to accept or reject the gospel and do not believe it is a work.

 

[Chopper]

But what about those who are doing that, but not consciously? I think that is the jist of his inquiry.

Should we be calling them false teachers?



Non-OSAS believes this very same thing. But somehow according to OSAS, free will to either accept or reject the gospel makes it a works gospel that robs the 'grace' out of salvation.

It's interesting to see how a fundamental misunderstanding of 'grace' in Paul's grace/works-law teaching is what gives strength to the 'OSAS/ predetermined believers' doctrines in the church today....doctrines summed up in 'I'm saved and there's nothing I can do about it, because if I could, salvation would no longer be grace'. Which is hardly what Paul was teaching.

One should believe that in the case of the predetermined selection of a remnant of followers, starting with Abraham is all by GRACE!

 

[Chopper]

I'm not condemning anyone, I'm simply pointing out facts. I've discussed with many Christians who simply will not hear anything that goes against what they believe. My point is that if we are not willing to consider that we may be wrong we will won't come to the truth.

I like your statement Butch, and that goes both ways, right?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You said,
"Non-OSAS believes this very same thing. But somehow according to OSAS, free will to either accept or reject the gospel makes it a works gospel that robs the 'grace' out of salvation."

MANY OSAS believers believe that one is free to accept or reject the gospel and do not believe it is a work.

I knew this needed much more explanation and that you'd comment on it.

Do you believe that you, as a believer, can reject that which you presently have in Christ?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

One should believe that in the case of the predetermined selection of a remnant of followers, starting with Abraham is all by GRACE!

What I reject is the definition of grace that says he was pre-programmed by God to believe.

Grace simply means you can't be justified/saved on your own. Grace does not mean there is no part of 'you' anywhere in salvation, but that is what OSAS says, because that would make it a works gospel. Hardly true.

 

[Deborah13]

What I reject is the definition of grace that says he was pre-programmed by God to believe.

Grace simply means you can't be justified/saved on your own. Grace does not mean there is no part of 'you' anywhere in salvation, but that is what OSAS says, because that would make it a works gospel. Hardly true.

That is not what OSAS says, that is what John Calvin and his doctrine says, as I understand pure Calvinism.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That is correct Deb. Scripture absolutely refers to two class, if you will, Ephesians Chapter 1:3-6 Verse 4 says "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him in love". And then in Verse 5 it says "predestined...for the purpose of His will.

The mistake you're making is thinking that this means God pre-programmed individual, particular people to be saved, instead of it saying that those who will believe will follow a pre-determined path to holiness with the goal of looking like Christ. As opposed to a predetermined plan where those who believe end up looking like a donkey or a moose. I'm exaggerating to illustrate my point.

We see the evidence that is what Paul is getting at in Romans 8:29 NASB.

"29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son..."

Predestination is a predetermined plan for salvation, not a predetermined group of people pre-programmed ahead of time to be saved. But God does know ahead of time who it is that will ultimately compose the group of people who will one day enter into the predetermined plan of salvation-- the predetermined plan to conform people into the image of Christ.

The ones who come thru the General Call of the Gospel, because of the witness of the remnant, must continue in their faith of what Christ did for them. There will be false prophets who spill out poisen doctrine to deceive these people and those people must beware. They are non OSAS
.

How does a person know which group they are in?

 

[Chopper]

What I reject is the definition of grace that says he was pre-programmed by God to believe.

Grace simply means you can't be justified/saved on your own. Grace does not mean there is no part of 'you' anywhere in salvation, but that is what OSAS says, because that would make it a works gospel. Hardly true.

From what I have been taught over the years is that grace is the favor of God to an undeserving individual. Every person that was preselected by God before this world came into existence would be Grace in its purest form.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That is not what OSAS says, that is what John Calvin and his doctrine says, as I understand pure Calvinism.

All I know is what people say in this forum about faith/works and OSAS.

It is argued that to make salvation in any way dependent on the saved person continuing in the gospel is to make the gospel a works gospel. A horrible, horrible misunderstanding of God's grace in salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

From what I have been taught over the years is that grace is the favor of God to an undeserving individual.

But we know that grace can be rejected. The Bible speaks clearly of this. So grace does not include being excused from the will and the ability to receive or accept grace. But that is what OSAS teaches.

Every person that was preselected by God before this world came into existence would be Grace in its purest form.

The grace of God is that there is even a plan of redemption to begin with, and that he moves heaven and earth to make it possible for me and you to believe and trust in that plan of redemption.

But OSAS says grace is that God even did my believing for me. And it says this to avoid making salvation by works, seemingly oblivious to the fact that Paul CONTRASTS the 'work' of believing with all other work that can not justify, not includes it with the works that can not justify.

 

[Deborah13]

All I know is what people say in this forum about faith/works and OSAS.

It is argued that to make salvation in any way dependent on the saved person continuing in the gospel is to make the gospel a works gospel. A horrible, horrible misunderstanding of God's grace in salvation.

That is not the only way it has been presented. I suggest that you read the writings of our resident chaplain about how one is saved.
Can one reject the gospel message of salvation in Christ, yes. If I remember correctly you said you refused it several times before you agreed to it. I don't suggest you try to get out of it now, you would be a miserable wreck. God never forces us but He certainly can manipulate circumstances so that one who has gone astray, will not be lost. ie, prodigal son, ie Matthew 18, the one who went astray.
I believe in the power of God to keep His own.

 

[Mike S]

Predestination is a predetermined plan for salvation, not a predetermined group of people pre-programmed ahead of time to be saved. But God does know ahead of time who it is that will ultimately compose the group of people who will one day enter into the predetermined plan of salvation-- the predetermined plan to conform people into the image of Christ.



How does a person know which group they are in?

A person doesn't know, he can't know. That's the reason I've never considered the argument about OSAS to be of any importance. Whether or not man has free will, every man conducts his life as if he does.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Can one reject the gospel message of salvation in Christ, yes. If I remember correctly you said you refused it several times before you agreed to it.

No, that is one thing I've always believed. I've quoted 1 John 5 heavily in Christian forums for years now concerning that very thing.

I don't suggest you try to get out of it now, you would be a miserable wreck. God never forces us but He certainly can manipulate circumstances so that one who has gone astray, will not be lost. ie, prodigal son, ie Matthew 18, the one who went astray. I believe in the power of God to keep His own.

No question about God's power to keep his own, but like the Prodigal, he will let them go if that's what they want. And we know from the many warnings in NT scripture that it is not a given that everyone who believes but then departs comes back.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That is not the only way it has been presented. I suggest that you read the writings of our resident chaplain about how one is saved.

Oh, and don't misunderstand. I know there are several variations on a theme concerning this OSAS thing. That's why you have to hear me when I say I'm speaking generally.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

A person doesn't know, he can't know. That's the reason I've never considered the argument about OSAS to be of any importance.

It's interesting that even the saved person can not be sure he has really been saved all along until he wakes up in heaven one day. And OSAS is supposed to be the doctrine of assurance.

In OSAS you're saved as long as you haven't fallen back to show that you're not saved. And for those who have fallen back, what they thought was salvation really wasn't. The short of it? You can't identify true salvation in OSAS doctrine.

In non-OSAS doctrine as long as you believe and trust in Christ's forgiveness, and continue to believe and trust in that forgiveness (as evidenced by the qualities of the Holy Spirit at work in you) you have the assurance of his finished work continually justifying you before the Father and qualifying you for the inheritance, guaranteeing the promise of that which is to come.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If I remember correctly you said you refused it several times before you agreed to it.

I see now. Were you referring to me refusing a doctrine about not being able to reject the gospel before salvation, or the fact that it took several calls for me to come to Christ?


Don't misunderstand, Deborah, I know that everybody can reject the gospel before they accept the gospel. Unless the variation of the theme of OSAS for a person is that we are predetermined ahead of time to be wired as believers/ non believers.

In general, OSAS says you can not cast away that which you have received after salvation. Paul warns the saved, Spirit-filled Galatians to not do that. I asked you about that but you have not responded.

 

[gr8grace3]

But we know that grace can be rejected. The Bible speaks clearly of this. So grace does not include being excused from the will and the ability to receive or accept grace. But that is what OSAS teaches.


The grace of God is that there is even a plan of redemption to begin with, and that he moves heaven and earth to make it possible for me and you to believe and trust in that plan of redemption.

But OSAS says grace is that God even did my believing for me. And it says this to avoid making salvation by works, seemingly oblivious to the fact that Paul CONTRASTS the 'work' of believing with all other work that can not justify, not includes it with the works that can not justify.

That is Hyper Calvinism and Perseverance of the Saints. Not Eternal security.

And from what I have studied, most Calvinists, If one draws it out to its logical conclusion are Hyper-Calvinists and don't even realize it. It is just muddled up in their efforts to try to get away from the Direct false doctrines that Hyper Calvinism exposes.

Get past the debate and get to the end of the Arminian "one can lose salvation, if you stop believing." And Calvinisms perseverance of the Saints," If one didn't continue in the faith they were never really saved." They both say EXACTLY the same thing, just worded a little different.

Salvation and eternal security say, "you have a one shot deal to believe. If you do, God gives you a Grace Gift of salvation. And that Gift is a gift from the integrity of God not mans. And He is immutable in His Gift and will not take back what he gives."