Do you support OSAS(once saved always saved)?

[Deborah13]

I see now. Were you referring to me refusing a doctrine about not being able to reject the gospel before salvation, or the fact that it took several calls for me to come to Christ?


Don't misunderstand, Deborah, I know that everybody can reject the gospel before they accept the gospel. Unless the variation of the theme of OSAS for a person is that we are predetermined ahead of time to be wired as believers/ non believers.

In general, OSAS says you can not cast away that which you have received after salvation. Paul warns the saved, Spirit-filled Galatians to not do that. I asked you about that but you have not responded.

Sorry, I didn't see where you ever asked me about the Galatians. Can you give verses in question.
I can't always post like I'm used to, anymore. But as you can tell I really don't like generalizations stated as fact because they can be very misleading.
It would be like me saying all people who do not believe OSAS, do believe they are justified by their works. That would be an ugly and misleading statement of facts.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That is Hyper Calvinism and Perseverance of the Saints. Not Eternal security.

And from what I have studied, most Calvinists, If one draws it out to its logical conclusion are Hyper-Calvinists and don't even realize it. It is just muddled up in their efforts to try to get away from the Direct false doctrines that Hyper Calvinism exposes.

Get past the debate and get to the end of the Arminian "one can lose salvation, if you stop believing." And Calvinisms perseverance of the Saints," If one didn't continue in the faith they were never really saved." They both say EXACTLY the same thing, just worded a little different.

Save me a lot of thought on this (I have homework to do as it is, lol) and explain how they are really the same thing. Not being nasty. Just make it easy for me to see.

The bottom line is, if you believe, then you have security of that which believing secures. God is not slack. That which we put our trust in is an iron clad hope, promise, and guarantee. But somehow that got twisted around to mean the promise is secure because it doesn't depend on you in any way shape or form, even in your believing. (Depending on your variation of OSAS, believing is either given to you, or, the promise is ultimately not contingent on believing anyway but on the promise itself).

Salvation and eternal security say, "you have a one shot deal to believe. If you do, God gives you a Grace Gift of salvation. And that Gift is a gift from the integrity of God not mans. And He is immutable in His Gift and will not take back what he gives."

Why does this doctrine ignore the abundance of scriptures that teach that you can forfeit what God has given? That is the truly amazing thing to me.

And I'm convinced the energy behind this closing of the eyes to these plain scriptures in that doctrine (addressing doctrines here, not people) is that to acknowledge we can forfeit salvation after we have it, or before, depending on your flavor of OSAS, is to make grace works. Like I say, this is a terrible, terrible misunderstanding of Paul's grace/works doctrine.

Believing is the the very 'work' we must do in order to be saved and stay saved. That doesn't rob faith of it's grace. For if it were not for the work of faith in the world in the first place we would not be able to then trust in that which the gift of faith makes known to us as true.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Sorry, I didn't see where you ever asked me about the Galatians. Can you give verses in question.

I'll dig it up later. I'm trying to get off line right now, lol.

...as you can tell I really don't like generalizations stated as fact because they can be very misleading.

I just make my position clear. That's how I deal with it.

It would be like me saying all people who do not believe OSAS, do believe they are justified by their works. That would be an ugly and misleading statement of facts.

Likewise, I think I understand your variation on the OSAS theme, but i really don't want to just make this about your particular variation. At least not for very long.

 

[gr8grace3]

Save me a lot of thought on this (I have homework to do as it is, lol) and explain how they are really the same thing. Not being nasty. Just make it easy for me to see.

The bottom line is, if you believe you have security of that which believing secures. God is not slack. That which we put our trust in is an iron clad promise and guarantee. But somehow that got twisted around to mean the promise is secure because it doesn't depend on you in any way shape or form, even in your believing. (Depending on your variation of OSAS, believing is either given to you, or, the promise is ultimately not contingent on believing anyway but on the promise itself).




Why does this doctrine ignore the abundance of scriptures that teach that you can forfeit what God has given? That is the truly amazing thing to me.

And I'm convinced the energy behind this closing of the eyes to these plain scriptures in that doctrine (addressing doctrines here, not people) is that to acknowledge we can forfeit salvation after we have it, or before depending on your flavor of OSAS, is to make grace works. Like I say, this is a terrible, terrible misunderstanding of Paul's grace/works doctrine. Believing is the the very 'work' we must do in order to be saved and be saved. That doesn't rob faith of it's grace. For if it were not for the work of faith in the world in the first place we would not be able to believe that which the gift of faith makes known to us as true.

They both are saying" One MUST continue in the faith."

You really had it and lost it. Arminian.

You thought you had it but really didn't. Calvinism

The scriptures that are warning believers are for experiential sanctification in this Life. They are never about a believer being condemned to Hell.

If we believe that they are condemning a believer to eternal Hell fire then we will not be able to apply them to our lives and our experiential sanctification(Growth).


If a believer doesn't continue in the faith it is a life of shame,divine discipline, loss of rewards,rank,crowns,reign, sin unto death and worst of all SHAME at the judgement seat of Christ.

1 John 2:28~~Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming.

1 Cor 3:15~~If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

 

[Butch5]

That is correct Deb. Scripture absolutely refers to two class, if you will, Ephesians Chapter 1:3-6 Verse 4 says "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him in love". And then in Verse 5 it says "predestined...for the purpose of His will. Those people are His remnant destined to carry out His will. They, because God chose them, will not loose what God gave them. they are OSAS.

The ones who come thru the General Call of the Gospel, because of the witness of the remnant, must continue in their faith of what Christ did for them. There will be false prophets who spill out poisen doctrine to deceive these people and those people must beware. They are non OSAS


Does it say Jews?
.

No, that must be determined by the context. It doesn't say Christians either.

 

[Butch5]

I like your statement Butch, and that goes both ways, right?

That's how I've come to believe what I do. I set aside what I had been taught and let the Scriptures speak.

 

[Butch5]

A person doesn't know, he can't know. That's the reason I've never considered the argument about OSAS to be of any importance. Whether or not man has free will, every man conducts his life as if he does.

The apostle John says one can know.

KJV 1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1Jo 5:13 KJV)

 

[JLB]

Then you'll need to reconcile that with your statement

My statement is the words of Jesus Christ.

To disregard His teaching to us from Luke 16, is to disregard the truth.

The Truth is the person lives on after their body dies.

The truth is Christians go to heaven to be with the Lord when their body dies.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:6-8

The truth is, Moses spoke with Jesus and was seen by the apostles, even though he had died. Matthew 17

The truth is, Abraham was alive in the heart of the earth, though his body had died. Luke 16

The truth is, Samuel prophesied to Saul though his body had died. 1 Samuel 28:15-17

The truth is Lazarus was alive in the heart of the earth with Abraham, though his body had died. Luke 16

The truth is, the Christians who are martyred are alive in heaven, though their body has died. Revelation 7


JLB

 

[jeff77]

Or through nature or conscience (Romans 2:14-15).

I don't believe that God will let a person slip through the fingers of salvation simply because they did not hear the gospel, but who would have believed if they had heard it. All people (who live long enough) will hear the gospel in some form.This is why I say the person who doesn't respond to the actual gospel message is the same person w will not respond to the call of God through conscience or nature. And vice versa.

Thanks for your replies and thanks to Deborah also. That's pretty much what I was thinking. That God wouldn't let someone fall through the cracks.

As for OSAS I can definitely see that there are people who claim to have at one time been a strong believer but somewhere along the way they didn't just backslide, they quit believing in the existence of God altogether. So that would indicate non-OSAS to me. On the other hand there are people who wander from the Lord but don't reject him. In this case I don't know how much wandering away, backsliding, sin, or whatever it takes for one to lose their salvation?

 

[Chopper]

Thanks for your replies and thanks to Deborah also. That's pretty much what I was thinking. That God wouldn't let someone fall through the cracks.

As for OSAS I can definitely see that there are people who claim to have at one time been a strong believer but somewhere along the way they didn't just backslide, they quit believing in the existence of God altogether. So that would indicate non-OSAS to me. On the other hand there are people who wander from the Lord but don't reject him. In this case I don't know how much wandering away, backsliding, sin, or whatever it takes for one to lose their salvation?

You know Jeff? You just said a mouthful on that statement, "how much wandering, backsliding, sin, or whatever it takes for one to lose their Salvation? That my friend, is unknown! I'd really like an answer for that.

 

[Chopper]

All I know is what people say in this forum about faith/works and OSAS.

It is argued that to make salvation in any way dependent on the saved person continuing in the gospel is to make the gospel a works gospel. A horrible, horrible misunderstanding of God's grace in salvation.

I don't believe in a works gospel either, I believe that a person (General Call) has to maintain his faith, not works, FAITH in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the Cross for the forgiveness of sins.

 

[Mike S]

The apostle John says one can know.

KJV 1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1Jo 5:13 KJV)

The scripture in John in no way indicates that a Christian can't fall from grace.

How would OSAS make a difference in the way you live a Christian life in any event? It's of no value whatever to think you know, unless you plan on coasting through life or obsessing about how many angels dance on the head of a pin. Any Christian who takes his salvation for granted is a fool; God is sovereign, and God will save whom God will save, and God will punish whom God will punish.

 

[Deborah13]

Thanks for your replies and thanks to Deborah also. That's pretty much what I was thinking. That God wouldn't let someone fall through the cracks.

As for OSAS I can definitely see that there are people who claim to have at one time been a strong believer but somewhere along the way they didn't just backslide, they quit believing in the existence of God altogether. So that would indicate non-OSAS to me. On the other hand there are people who wander from the Lord but don't reject him. In this case I don't know how much wandering away, backsliding, sin, or whatever it takes for one to lose their salvation?

Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Seeing Jesus' intent is to save to the uttermost (not partially) and that He is able to do that, then the intercession He makes for those who came to God through Him must be intercession in a positive sense. And seeing that He is righteousness Himself, His intercession must be perfect.

Isa 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

 

[Chopper]

Deborah13 said: ↑
Only the most amazingly loving God would do such a thing, even for those who hated Him.

A man may lay down his life for his own family, maybe a friend, but will he do that for his enemy?
Oh Deb. Why can't we as representatives of such a loving, sacrificing, and gracious God, love each other that way. A good example of what I'm talking about is here in this Forum. Kathi and I have been speaking of this in private, and I don't think she would mind if I spoke about how disappointed we are in some of the folk who think that they are the ultimate authority on how God does things and that they only have the correct understanding of the Scriptures. I certainly don't!! What I post is my opinion based on my studies.

Lets look at Isaiah 55:8 & 9 which was our study this morning. "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts"....Deb. why on earth would any of us in this Forum think that we are THE authority after reading this Scripture. In my opinion, it's nothing but PRIDE!! And it stinks!

I for one am making a public apology in that If I have come across as the only one with the Truth, I beg for your forgiveness! If I have come across as condescending, I am sorry! Please forgive me? Kathi, really opened up my eyes to a sin that is happening a lot with our posts, we are too proud of our opinions and display them as facts. Shame on us! We need to take stalk in how we present our beliefs. Humility is the key to our ideas. THANK YOU KATHI.

From now on, I promise to be cautious in how I answer my Brothers and Sisters. I want your respect as someone just like you who want's to learn more from people who have the love of our Master, Jesus Christ.

And especially thank you Deb, for your post! Alive In Jesus
Chopper

 

[Deborah13]

I don't believe in a works gospel either, I believe that a person (General Call) has to maintain his faith, not works, FAITH in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the Cross for the forgiveness of sins.

So are you saying the God is partial to some men? In that He maintains the faith of the OSAS believer but the non-OSAS must maintain his own faith?

I ask a lot of questions....I want to know what others believe because they may see something I don't.

 

[Chopper]

So are you saying the God is partial to some men? In that He maintains the faith of the OSAS believer but the non-OSAS must maintain his own faith?

Yes Deb. That is what God does for those He chooses before the foundations of the earth. They are pre-determined by Almighty God to be born into this world when He wants them, in what geographical location He wants, and the Holy Spirit captures his heart so that he responds to the Gospel and is saved because God cannot fail in his Salvation, and God cannot fail in keeping him saved.

 

[Butch5]

My statement is the words of Jesus Christ.

To disregard His teaching to us from Luke 16, is to disregard the truth.

The Truth is the person lives on after their body dies.

The truth is Christians go to heaven to be with the Lord when their body dies.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:6-8

The truth is, Moses spoke with Jesus and was seen by the apostles, even though he had died. Matthew 17

The truth is, Abraham was alive in the heart of the earth, though his body had died. Luke 16

The truth is, Samuel prophesied to Saul though his body had died. 1 Samuel 28:15-17

The truth is Lazarus was alive in the heart of the earth with Abraham, though his body had died. Luke 16

The truth is, the Christians who are martyred are alive in heaven, though their body has died. Revelation 7


JLB

You said they die and you said they will never die. It can't be both.

 

[Butch5]

The scripture in John in no way indicates that a Christian can't fall from grace.

How would OSAS make a difference in the way you live a Christian life in any event? It's of no value whatever to think you know, unless you plan on coasting through life or obsessing about how many angels dance on the head of a pin. Any Christian who takes his salvation for granted is a fool; God is sovereign, and God will save whom God will save, and God will punish whom God will punish.

Yeah? You said one couldn't know John said they could. What does that have to do with falling from grace?

 

[Butch5]

Hey Deb, I fixed the link in the Ephesians thread, it's in post 4

 

[Mike S]

Yeah? You said one couldn't know John said they could. What does that have to do with falling from grace?

It has this to do with falling Grace; just as man has free will to accept Christ and receive salvation and eternal life, he has free will to later reject Christ and lose salvation and eternal life. John did not say once saved always saved.

God is sovereign in time and space, why would assume He can be boxed in by what any man - including John - says He is or isn't capable of.