Do you support OSAS(once saved always saved)?

[Butch5]

It has this to do with falling Grace; just as man has free will to accept Christ and receive salvation and eternal life, he has free will to later reject Christ and lose salvation and eternal life. John did not say once saved always saved.

I'm not arguing that point. I said nothing about OSAS. I believe OSAS is wrong. However, that doesn't address what John said, He said the believer can know that they are saved. That doesn't mean the will be saved in the future but it does mean they are saved at the point when they are believing.

 

[Mike S]

I'm not arguing that point. I said nothing about OSAS. I believe OSAS is wrong. However, that doesn't address what John said, He said the believer can know that they are saved. That doesn't mean the will be saved in the future but it does mean they are saved at the point when they are believing.

I agree with that belief.

 

[JLB]

You said they die and you said they will never die. It can't be both.

It is when you rightly divide the word of Truth.

You would have to take the position that we don't have a spirit, or a soul to believe there is not life after death of the body.

You would have to disregard what Jesus taught us in Luke 16.

You would have to disregard what Matthew 17 states and what God the Father instructed us to do, which is Hear Him. -

1 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah." 5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!" Matthew 17:1-5

I believe what is written in Matthew 17, so I am going to believe what jesus taught us in Luke 16.

Furthermore, I am going to believe whom Jesus Christ has sent.

As Paul taught us -

23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23

The same Paul who wrote, your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless, also taught us these words -

And so it is written , The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.1 Corinthians 15:45 KJV

And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 1 Corinthians 15:45 NKJV


Because the scripture says Adam was a living soul, does not mean he does not have a spirit and a soul that is his.

as it is written -

Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1

and again -

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Romans 8:16


Man continues to live on after his body has died. There are many scriptures that I have given to prove this point.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't believe in a works gospel either, I believe that a person (General Call) has to maintain his faith, not works, FAITH in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the Cross for the forgiveness of sins.

A.k.a. non-OSAS.

...unless you think that the 'general call' believer has no choice but to be successful in maintaining his faith. Then you are right back in the OSAS camp.


The point I was making about works is that it is this very resistance to a works gospel that energizes OSAS. Out of a knee-jerk fear of the works gospel the OSAS teaching has even made it so if you assign any effort of believing to the person you are advocating a works gospel. That is hardly what Paul was teaching.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...God cannot fail in keeping him saved.

Classic OSAS doctrine.

There's just too many pointed warnings to the church in the NT for one to insist that it isn't possible for believers to forfeit the justification they have in Jesus Christ through a failure of their faith in that justification.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You know Jeff? You just said a mouthful on that statement, "how much wandering, backsliding, sin, or whatever it takes for one to lose their Salvation? That my friend, is unknown! I'd really like an answer for that.

This is what makes it hard to discuss OSAS within your doctrine. I can't tell if you're really OSAS, or not.

God knows when a person's sin represents their rejection of, or contempt for the forgiveness they have received, and when their sin represents the common struggles of those clinging tenaciously to the forgiveness they have received. If we ask ourselves why we sin I think we can get a pretty good idea of where we're at with God.

 

[JLB]

Jeff 77 said -

As for OSAS I can definitely see that there are people who claim to have at one time been a strong believer but somewhere along the way they didn't just backslide, they quit believing in the existence of God altogether.

This is a very well worded phrase Jeff. I agree with this.

This post seems to make a distinction between people who have backslidden, and people who stop believing in Jesus Christ as the only way, or stop believing in God altogether.


Good point Jeff.

Here is the link to the website called - Ex Christian.net

http://www.ex-christian.net/forum/5-testimonies-of-former-christians

It is sad to read through the testimonies...

What would you say to some of these that have turned away from the truth, if you believe is OSAS.

James says -

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

To cover a multitude of sins is love language.

Love covers a multitude of sins.

To turn someone back to the truth is to love them.


JLB

 

[Chopper]

A.k.a. non-OSAS.

...unless you think that the 'general call' believer has no choice but to be successful in maintaining his faith. Then you are right back in the OSAS camp.


The point I was making about works is that it is this very resistance to a works gospel that energizes OSAS. Out of a knee-jerk fear of the works gospel the OSAS teaching has even made it so if you assign any effort of believing to the person you are advocating a works gospel. That is hardly what Paul was teaching.

The GC believer, has a choice. He can, for some reason, abandon his belief in Jesus, (4 seeds sown) or maintain it to the end. There are a lot of Scripture verses that depict a person who thinks that they are saved, but according to Jesus, are not.

OSAS ONLY refers to the ELECT!

 

[Chopper]

Classic OSAS doctrine.

There's just too many pointed warnings to the church in the NT for one to insist that it isn't possible for believers to forfeit the justification they have in Jesus Christ through a failure of their faith in that justification.

My Dear Jethro, I simply believe in a powerful God Who is able to Keep what He has committed to the last day. When they stray, He brings them back. I think sometimes you may overlook the power of God in favor of your conviction that OSAS is a ridiculous belief.

For the GC believers, they can walk away from Salvation. I hope that is clear! They are Non-OSAS!

The elect of God, will not walk away from Salvation. The almighty power of God and the ministry of the Holy Spirit is more than able to keep the elect in the Family of God. He chastises when they sin. He brings back the prodigal ones, His power rules over the whims of man.

I am speaking of two groups of believers. One, the ELECT. Two, the GC. I see a picture of the elect in Revelation Chapter 14. The 144,000 follow the Lamb where ever He goes. They do not die by an enemy or disaster, nor do they loose what God has called them to do in their love for Jesus....I see a picture of the GC in 2 Thess. 2 in the great apostasy. Some of the GC believers loose!

 

[Deborah13]

This is a very well worded phrase Jeff. I agree with this.

This post seems to make a distinction between people who have backslidden, and people who stop believing in Jesus Christ as the only way, or stop believing in God altogether.


Good point Jeff.

Here is the link to the website called - Ex Christian.net

http://www.ex-christian.net/forum/5-testimonies-of-former-christians

It is sad to read through the testimonies...

What would you say to some of these that have turned away from the truth, if you believe is OSAS.

James says -

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

To cover a multitude of sins is love language.

Love covers a multitude of sins.

To turn someone back to the truth is to love them.


JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

My Dear Jethro, I simply believe in a powerful God Who is able to Keep what He has committed to the last day. When they stray, He brings them back. I think sometimes you may overlook the power of God in favor of your conviction that OSAS is a ridiculous belief.

For the GC believers, they can walk away from Salvation. I hope that is clear! They are Non-OSAS!

The elect of God, will not walk away from Salvation. The almighty power of God and the ministry of the Holy Spirit is more than able to keep the elect in the Family of God. He chastises when they sin. He brings back the prodigal ones, His power rules over the whims of man.

I am speaking of two groups of believers. One, the ELECT. Two, the GC. I see a picture of the elect in Revelation Chapter 14. The 144,000 follow the Lamb where ever He goes. They do not die by an enemy or disaster, nor do they loose what God has called them to do in their love for Jesus....I see a picture of the GC in 2 Thess. 2 in the great apostasy. Some of the GC believers loose!

What I believe happens with this theory Chopper is, it makes Gods Justice/Righteousness less than 100% perfect.

We have nowhere in the Scriptures that says salvation reveals Gods Sovereignty. Salvation always reveals His Perfect Justice/righteousness. If He went outside of His Justice/Righteousness for even one mans salvation, His Perfect Justice/righteousness would not be perfect anymore.

Rom 1:16-17~~16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.17 For in it(salvation) the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Ps 98:9~~Before the LORD, for He is coming to judge the earth; He will judge the world with righteousness And the peoples with equity.

Ps 96:10~~Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns; Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved; He will judge the peoples with equity."

Ps 9:8~~And He will judge the world in righteousness; He will execute judgment for the peoples with equity.

The Sovereignty of God Choose salvation to go through His Perfect Justice/righteousness. If God saved even one person through His sovereignty, His Justice would be less than 100% Perfect and He would not be Judging the peoples in equity.

Salvation is a level playing field for all men, all men.

 

[Chopper]

What I believe happens with this theory Chopper is, it makes Gods Justice/Righteousness less than 100% perfect.

We have nowhere in the Scriptures that says salvation reveals Gods Sovereignty. Salvation always reveals His Perfect Justice/righteousness. If He went outside of His Justice/Righteousness for even one mans salvation, His Perfect Justice/righteousness would not be perfect anymore.

Rom 1:16-17~~16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.17 For in it(salvation) the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Ps 98:9~~Before the LORD, for He is coming to judge the earth; He will judge the world with righteousness And the peoples with equity.

Ps 96:10~~Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns; Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved; He will judge the peoples with equity."

Ps 9:8~~And He will judge the world in righteousness; He will execute judgment for the peoples with equity.

The Sovereignty of God Choose salvation to go through His Perfect Justice/righteousness. If God saved even one person through His sovereignty, His Justice would be less than 100% Perfect and He would not be Judging the peoples in equity.

Salvation is a level playing field for all men, all men.

OK my friend, I agree with most of what you post, very good. I believe I have posted the Truth. You certainly are welcome to your opinion, I respect that.

 

[Butch5]

'

It is when you rightly divide the word of Truth.

You would have to take the position that we don't have a spirit, or a soul to believe there is not life after death of the body.

You would have to disregard what Jesus taught us in Luke 16.

You would have to disregard what Matthew 17 states and what God the Father instructed us to do, which is Hear Him. -

1 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah." 5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!" Matthew 17:1-5

I believe what is written in Matthew 17, so I am going to believe what jesus taught us in Luke 16.

Furthermore, I am going to believe whom Jesus Christ has sent.

As Paul taught us -

23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23

The same Paul who wrote, your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless, also taught us these words -

And so it is written , The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.1 Corinthians 15:45 KJV

And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 1 Corinthians 15:45 NKJV


Because the scripture says Adam was a living soul, does not mean he does not have a spirit and a soul that is his.

as it is written -

Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1

and again -

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Romans 8:16


Man continues to live on after his body has died. There are many scriptures that I have given to prove this point.


JLB

You quoted the passage, they shall not taste death and then you said they die. That is a contradiction, either they didn't die or they didn't taste death. You can claim that the body died but that is still death. Jesus didn't specify He said they shall not taste death. If a person's body dies they have tasted death. It seems there are only two options, either you're misunderstanding the passage or believers don't die.

 

[Butch5]

What is the difference between those who reject Christ and those who are backslidden, both are willfully disobeying Christ?

 

[jeff77]

What is the difference between those who reject Christ and those who are backslidden, both are willfully disobeying Christ?

People who reject Christ don't believe in God. So are they given the knowledge of God's existence by the Holy Spirit when the HS convicts them? How can you measure the amount of sin or backsliding it takes to lose ones salvation?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The GC believer, has a choice. He can, for some reason, abandon his belief in Jesus, (4 seeds sown) or maintain it to the end. There are a lot of Scripture verses that depict a person who thinks that they are saved, but according to Jesus, are not.

You'll have to clarify yourself.

Out of one side of your mouth you say the GC person can abandon his belief, but then out the other side of your mouth you suggest that the GC person who does that just thought they were saved. Very confusing.

OSAS ONLY refers to the ELECT!

You're going to have to show us where scripture makes this division between predetermined believers, and those who become believers of their own choice. I don't see it. And I don't think it's enough to just say everything OSAS is referring to the predetermined believers, while everything that seems to be non-OSAS is referring to the other group. We need to see someone in the Bible telling us there is this distinction. Where is that?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

People who reject Christ don't believe in God. So are they given the knowledge of God's existence by the Holy Spirit when the HS convicts them? How can you measure the amount of sin or backsliding it takes to lose ones salvation?

I don't think it's so much a matter of what sin, or amount of sin that determines when, where, and how a person forfeits the grace of God in salvation, but rather WHY the person is sinning. That is what determines the when, where, and how of losing the grace of God in salvation.

For the Galatians, for example, it was because they were relying on law observance for justification and turning away from justification in Christ. That is WHY their sinning was threatening their salvation, not that they were keeping various old covenant worship laws (Paul kept some).

It's the 'why' of sin, not so much the 'what' of sin that determines when sin can forfeit one's relationship with Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What is the difference between those who reject Christ and those who are backslidden, both are willfully disobeying Christ?

Some do it because they are weak and discouraged. Some do it because they don't care about the forgiveness they have received in Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think sometimes you may overlook the power of God in favor of your conviction that OSAS is a ridiculous belief.

My conviction about OSAS comes right from the plain words of scripture. It's amazing to me that OSAS favors it's doctrine over the plain words of scripture. It's utterly amazing to me. But I know how that kind of thing works. We saw a very good example of that right here in this forum the other night....the plain words of scripture completely hidden in plain sight to one of the posters here. And, no, I'm not going to say who it was for anyone who didn't catch it the night it happened.

 

[Butch5]

People who reject Christ don't believe in God. So are they given the knowledge of God's existence by the Holy Spirit when the HS convicts them? How can you measure the amount of sin or backsliding it takes to lose ones salvation?

They don't believe "in" God or do they just not want to live according to His commands? The ability to measure the amount of sin doesn't address the fact that they are willfully disobeying Christ's commands. The how much sin argument is actually a fallacy known as the Fallacy of he Beard. How many hairs does it take to make a beard? We can't say. if you have 100 hairs you have a beard but if you only have 99 you don't have a beard. Not everything fits into a formula. We could ask how many sins does it take before a parent punishes a child. That would depend on the child, the parent, what the child did, and any circumstances that pertain to the issue,

However, my point as it regards OSAS is that I think it's a false dichotomy. I think the term "backslidden" is just a way to separate the sinner who says he follows Christ and the sinner who doesn't.