Do you support OSAS(once saved always saved)?

[Deborah13]

You'll have to clarify yourself.

Out of one side of your mouth you say the GC person can abandon his belief, but then out the other side of your mouth you suggest that the GC person who does that just thought they were saved. Very confusing.

That's because that's not what Chopper said. At least I never saw where he said they were never saved. What I heard him say was that they Can reject Christ because they are NOT being KEPT in the faith, by God Himself. In other words they can exercise their free will and reject Christ even AFTER being Saved.

You're going to have to show us where scripture makes this division between predetermined believers, and those who become believers of their own choice. I don't see it. And I don't think it's enough to just say everything OSAS is referring to the predetermined believers, while everything that seems to be non-OSAS is referring to the other group. We need to see someone in the Bible telling us there is this distinction. Where is that?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Sorry, I didn't see where you ever asked me about the Galatians. Can you give verses in question.

Here is what I was referring to:

The Bible won't let us extend the analogy of adopted children remaining the children of the adoptive parents no matter what the children do. Paul warned the adopted children of God at Galatia not to go back to the slavery of dependence on law observance for justification or else they would make the Christ they accepted (Galatians 1:9 NASB), which filled them with the Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:2 NASB), of no effect for them (Galatians 5:1-2 NASB) in regards to justification (Galatians 5:4-5 NASB).

He warns these children of God that they can not inherit the promise if they become slaves using Hagar and Sarah to illustrate that truth (Galatians 4:30-31 NASB). OSAS says if they become slaves again that they were never children of God to begin with. But we see Paul warning these Spirit filled people not to fall back into the slavery, which OSAS says would show they were never saved to begin with, or else make Christ of no value to them in justification and unable to gain the inheritance that only belongs to the children of God.

How does OSAS make Paul's message to the Galatians about justification (not sanctification, gr8grace ) mean you can't lose justification in Christ?

Anybody.

I understand your explanation, Deborah, of why you didn't address my question, but why does the abundance of plain scripture I post not get addressed in this thread? I know why. I'm hoping you people will see why. We had a demonstration of why the other night.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That's because that's not what Chopper said. At least I never saw where he said they were never saved.

Deborah, reread his post.

I have asked him to clarify.

 

[WIP]

I just want to step in here and say thank you all for the very civil conversation even though there are views from a couple different directions. This is very educational for someone like me. Keep up the good work.

 

[Deborah13]

They don't believe "in" God or do they just not want to live according to His commands? The ability to measure the amount of sin doesn't address the fact that they are willfully disobeying Christ's commands. The how much sin argument is actually a fallacy known as the Fallacy of he Beard. How many hairs does it take to make a beard? We can't say. if you have 100 hairs you have a beard but if you only have 99 you don't have a beard. Not everything fits into a formula. We could ask how many sins does it take before a parent punishes a child. That would depend on the child, the parent, what the child did, and any circumstances that pertain to the issue,

However, my point as it regards OSAS is that I think it's a false dichotomy. I think the term "backslidden" is just a way to separate the sinner who says he follows Christ and the sinner who doesn't.

Hi Butch, I am reposting this from an earlier post because I believe the Spurgeon nailed it in explaining the difference between one who backslides (sinner) and one who never knew (sinner).

Sermon #2569 February 22, 1883
Backslider's Door of Hope - Hosea 2:15

"Once they could, perhaps, speak to others in Christ’s name, but they would be afraid to say a word for Jesus now, for they have gone far astray from Him. The message of infinite mercy to such people is, “Return, you backsliding children!” Come back, come home to your God! There is no other place of rest for you in the whole world—you will be as a bird that wanders from its nest. Sinners may rest content in their sin, for as yet they know no better, but you are disqualified even for that! You have so much knowledge still left and so much of conscience still remains that you are spoiled for this world, spoiled for the pleasures of sin, spoiled for all confidence except the one confidence which you used to have in Christ Jesus your Lord. There is no alternative for you but to return, for you cannot go elsewhere. Therefore, come home to your first Husband—that is God’s own metaphor—for it was better with you then, than now!"

http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols43-45/chs2569.pdf
This site has by Volume Spurgeon's sermons. They are available to download in pdf for free.

How do I know? Because I have been there.

 

[Danus]

Every time this subject gets brought up, it quickly denigrates into mud slinging and personal attacks.

For those of us who understand we are found by Jesus right where we where, or are, great! But we can not deny that there is an effort in living the Christian life. That a day of judgement will be on us as well, for every thought, word, and deed.

For those who make the effort to live the Christian life in hopes for salvation, Great as well! But know also that it is Christ who saves and keeps you. Denying that is denying the glory that belongs to Him, and giving it to yourself.

None of us can stand on our own merit before God; not one of us. No mans salvation is a reward. Rewards are given for something you do, and therefore salvation is a privilege. A privilege available to anyone by the grace of God. But, there are degrees of reward in heaven, and those rewards are for your effort, and obedience in living the Christian life.

 

[Chopper]

You'll have to clarify yourself.

Out of one side of your mouth you say the GC person can abandon his belief, but then out the other side of your mouth you suggest that the GC person who does that just thought they were saved. Very confusing.



You're going to have to show us where scripture makes this division between predetermined believers, and those who become believers of their own choice. I don't see it. And I don't think it's enough to just say everything OSAS is referring to the predetermined believers, while everything that seems to be non-OSAS is referring to the other group. We need to see someone in the Bible telling us there is this distinction. Where is that?

Jethro, You're a good man. IMO stuck in your preconceptions, unable to receive another teaching. You know very well the Scriptures that support my teaching. I see no point in my continuing a debate over this issue. There comes a point in my delivery on any teaching, that if the person, digs in and refuses to accept what I feel is Truth, then I begin to get frustrated. When I get frustrated, I begin to rebuke....So that I don't hurt your feelings and make an enemy out of a friend, I'll not partake in this debate any longer. God bless you my friend, I mean that!

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch, I am reposting this from an earlier post because I believe the Spurgeon nailed it in explaining the difference between one who backslides (sinner) and one who never knew (sinner).

Sermon #2569 February 22, 1883
Backslider's Door of Hope - Hosea 2:15

"Once they could, perhaps, speak to others in Christ’s name, but they would be afraid to say a word for Jesus now, for they have gone far astray from Him. The message of infinite mercy to such people is, “Return, you backsliding children!” Come back, come home to your God! There is no other place of rest for you in the whole world—you will be as a bird that wanders from its nest. Sinners may rest content in their sin, for as yet they know no better, but you are disqualified even for that! You have so much knowledge still left and so much of conscience still remains that you are spoiled for this world, spoiled for the pleasures of sin, spoiled for all confidence except the one confidence which you used to have in Christ Jesus your Lord. There is no alternative for you but to return, for you cannot go elsewhere. Therefore, come home to your first Husband—that is God’s own metaphor—for it was better with you then, than now!"

http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols43-45/chs2569.pdf
This site has by Volume Spurgeon's sermons. They are available to download in pdf for free.

How do I know? Because I have been there.

Hi Deb,

In this quote Spurgeon makes two assumption one is his statement about infinite mercy and the other is that the wayward sinner has nowhere else to Go. The second assumes the premise of this thread, that being that one cannot be lost.

The only difference between the two people I spoke of is that one claims to follow Christ and the other doesn't.

 

[Deborah13]

Here is what I was referring to:

How does OSAS make Paul's message to the Galatians about justification (not sanctification, gr8grace ) mean you can't lose justification in Christ?

Anybody.

I understand your explanation, Deborah, of why you didn't address my question, but why does the abundance of plain scripture I post not get addressed in this thread? I know why. I'm hoping you people will see why. We had a demonstration of why the other night.

Thanks for showing the post you were talking about, I may not have responded seeing it was not directed to me, Most of the time I try to give the person the post was to a chance to respond first to their own post.

The Bible won't let us extend the analogy of adopted children remaining the children of the adoptive parents no matter what the children do. Paul warned the adopted children of God at Galatia not to go back to the slavery of dependence on law observance for justification or else they would make the Christ they accepted (Galatians 1:9 NASB), which filled them with the Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:2 NASB), of no effect for them (Galatians 5:1-2 NASB) in regards to justification (Galatians 5:4-5 NASB).

First I'd like to just point out the Paul must have been speaking to the Jews, proselytes, and those the Judaizers were trying to convince that they too must be circumcised, etc. One cannot turn back to believing in justification by the law if they never believed that to start with.
So I believe there two problems Paul is addressing here in Galatians and it's not about whether one is saved or not.
1) That you must keep the Law of Moses in order to be saved.
2) If Christ has set us free we can live as we please...."I can do whatever I want" I'm not addressing this here.

The very same problems that effect the Church today.

Gal. 1:9 - is not saying they were all saved. Paul here is defending the Gospel message that they had received from him. That is clear in the next verse and others. He goes on talking about his ministry and message that he received from God, not men and other things like in 1:18. This continues into chapter 2, the Judaizers were trying to discredit him.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
So here there is a clear statement that at least some of them had received the Spirit.
Galatians chapter 3-4:31 Paul is making his argument for justification by faith.

Galatians chapter 5-6:10 (about there) he tells them to stand fast in the liberty of the gospel.
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

So in verse 1, I believe Paul is talking about the Law, again. As he is through out Galatians. Hagar
Verse 2 - He tells them it that serving the Law there is no profit in Christ.

Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

So whosoever is justified by the law, is a debtor to do the Whole law, therefore they are not justified by grace.
This would be a total rejection of the grace we find in justification through Christ.

No one, even those in the OT were justified by the Law. They had to wait for Christ to justify them.

 

[n2thelight]

If OSAS was true,there would be no need for one to repent....Scripture tells us to repent of our sins,my question is why,if we are always saved?

 

[Gary]

If OSAS was true,there would be no need for one to repent....Scripture tells us to repent of our sins,my question is why,if we are always saved?

Good point.

 

[Deborah13]

If OSAS was true,there would be no need for one to repent....Scripture tells us to repent of our sins,my question is why,if we are always saved?

What does repent mean to you?
Why do you repent?

 

[Deborah13]

Good point.

Please explain why you think that is a good point.

 

[JLB]

If OSAS was true,there would be no need for one to repent....Scripture tells us to repent of our sins,my question is why,if we are always saved?

I think you have made a good point.

However I would like to see the scripture that says, Repent of your sins.


Thanks JLB

 

[Deborah13]

I think you have made a good point.

However I would like to see the scripture that says, Repent of your sins.


Thanks JLB

What is the good point they made?

 

[Butch5]

I think you have made a good point.

However I would like to see the scripture that says, Repent of your sins.


Thanks JLB

I think you have made a good point.

However I would like to see the scripture that says, Repent of your sins.


Thanks JLB

What else do the Scriptures speak of repenting of?


2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. (Luk 13:2-3 KJV)

 

[gr8grace3]

Here is what I was referring to:



How does OSAS make Paul's message to the Galatians about justification (not sanctification, gr8grace ) mean you can't lose justification in Christ?

Anybody.

I understand your explanation, Deborah, of why you didn't address my question, but why does the abundance of plain scripture I post not get addressed in this thread? I know why. I'm hoping you people will see why. We had a demonstration of why the other night.

I believe you are a case in point of these Scriptures Jethro. Experientially you have lost the Justification of God. You don't believe you are justified for all time and you are. Experientially you have lost the truth of Gods positional Justification of Jethro. You are already seated with Christ in the heavenly as a 100% Justified Saint.

Eph 2:6~~and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Experientially, we can lose Justification. Positionally we cannot.

 

[JLB]

What is the good point they made?

If there is scripture to support his statement - Scripture tells us to repent of our sins,my question is why,if we are always saved?

If people are told to repent of their sins, which Repent is a word that is hard-linked to Salvation, then why do so if the person is once saved always saved.

That is the point that I think is good.


I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Luke 3:13

Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, Acts 3:19






JLB

 

[WIP]

If OSAS was true,there would be no need for one to repent....Scripture tells us to repent of our sins,my question is why,if we are always saved?

Are you mixing up OSAS with predestination?
The way I understand OSAS is that it doesn't necessarily mean a person is saved from birth or before birth. It means that once a person is saved (whenever that happens) they will remain saved forever but getting saved may still require an act of repentance on their part.

 

[Deborah13]

If there is scripture to support his statement - Scripture tells us to repent of our sins,my question is why,if we are always saved?

If people are told to repent of their sins, which Repent is a word that is hard-linked to Salvation, then why do so if the person is once saved always saved.

That is the point that I think is good.


I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Luke 3:13

Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, Acts 3:19

JLB

So are you saying that the only reason to repent is so you won't go to hell?