Do you support OSAS(once saved always saved)?

[Chopper]

Deborah, reread his post.

I have asked him to clarify.

Jethro, I'll clarify anything you want. It just irritated me that I had previously entered Scripture to prove my points, and you were asking for them again. I don't like having to repeat myself.

Go ahead, what would you like me to prove from the Scriptures. Please list each one and I will answer each one.

 

[Butch5]

Yeah, a difference without a distinction, since I repent either way and never know if it's because I'm predestined to repent or if I repent of my own free will. It simply doesn't...make...a...difference. It's a nonsense theological issue, but has this consequence. If you believe in predestination, it's only a tiny step to "If evrything is predestined, it doesn't matter what I do since I have no control over it. So I might as well do whatever I want."

I actually started a thread on this very subject a while ago. The difference between Calvinism and Arminianism is the source of the disagreements between our early Methodist founders, John Wesley and George Whitefield. The vast majority of Methodists today are Arminianists.

It's not a difference without distinction. The difference is who's responsible. If it's predestined and God does it, the one who is lost can say that not fair God didn't do that for me and bring a charge against God. If it's you then God cannot be held accountable for anyone who doesn't convert.

 

[Mike S]

It's not a difference without distinction. The difference is who's responsible. If it's predestined and God does it, the one who is lost can say that not fair God didn't do that for me and bring a charge against God. If it's you then God cannot be held accountable for anyone who doesn't convert.

It absolutely IS a difference without a distinction. Tell me how knowing either way would effect your Christian life. It doesn't make a bit of difference.

 

[Chopper]

I agree we continue to repent. So I understood the question as, why would someone need to repent if they are saved and cannot loose their salvation?

Every person, whether the elect or those coming to Christ thru the general call, must repent before they are saved. Someone, mistakenly thinks that those who God chooses before the world, is automatically saved. NO WAY! They must come to believe the Gospel just like everyone else.

 

[JLB]

No it doesn't, speaking of those sinners who died, Jesus said, unless you repent you too will perish.

Everyone will perish physically, whether they Repent or not.

Perish here is referring to the spiritual death that the rich man who was tormented in the fire, was experiencing.

Everyone's body will die.


JLB

 

[JLB]

No it doesn't, speaking of those sinners who died, Jesus said, unless you repent you too will perish.

Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. Acts 3:19


JLB

 

[Chopper]

It's not a difference without distinction. The difference is who's responsible. If it's predestined and God does it, the one who is lost can say that not fair God didn't do that for me and bring a charge against God. If it's you then God cannot be held accountable for anyone who doesn't convert.

Butch, whoever told you that the predestined are automatically saved? Do you have Scripture to that effect?

 

[Mike S]

Butch, whoever told you that the predestined are automatically saved? Do you have Scripture to that effect?

You know, Chopper, you have it right here, with either predestination or free will, repentance is required for salvation. Some people here seem obsessed about these things, but when I'm on my knees at the altar praying "Jesus, save me!", I'm not wondering if I'm there because of God predestined it before I was born or if I'm there of my own free will. If the answer to that is important to some people, hey, let them knock themselves out arguing about it. Personally, I don't care, and it doesn't make a difference in what Christ calls me to do.

Probably my last comment in this thread.

 

[Gary]

If OSAS was true,there would be no need for one to repent....Scripture tells us to repent of our sins,my question is why,if we are always saved?

Good point.

Please explain why you think that is a good point.

If one believes they are saved and will always be saved, there would be no reason to repent after salvation because one could never lose salvation. I have heard proponents of OSAS state that after one is saved, they can literally do anything they wish because they are saved. The OSAS doctrine substantiates that claim. Once you're saved, you will always be saved, no matter what.
.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I know the spirit of offense (read 'pride') is rampant in online forums, but why do people get offended instead of just clarifying themselves?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So please go back and respond to my post to your scriptures.

Besides an apparent misunderstanding about who I thought you said the letter of Galatians is written to, I did address your post. If you want to, you can tell me why I'm wrong. I'm listening.

 

[Chopper]

You know, Chopper, you have it right here, with either predestination or free will, repentance is required for salvation. Some people here seem obsessed about these things, but when I'm on my knees at the altar praying "Jesus, save me!", I'm not wondering if I'm there because of God predestined it before I was born or if I'm there of my own free will. If the answer to that is important to some people, hey, let them knock themselves out arguing about it. Personally, I don't care, and it doesn't make a difference in what Christ calls me to do.

Probably my last comment in this thread.

Mike, I agree with you totally, AMEN!! I personally believe that I was chosen before the world began. I don't know for sure because I don't believe anyone could know that otherwise they would think that they were special. I only know that for at least ten years, I knew that God wanted something from me. The trouble was, I didn't know what. I was a big shot business owner and was embarrassed to ask anyone. Finally I went to a Baptist Church and received Jesus as my Savior and then I began to realize what God wanted.

Anyway, you are right, it makes no difference because that knowledge is not supposed to be made known.

Please don't exit this thread. There is too much bad doctrine floating around and a few of us have to set things straight....Love you Bro.

 

[Mike S]

If one believes they are saved and will always be saved, there would be no reason to repent after salvation because one could never lose salvation. I have heard proponents of OSAS state that after one is saved, they can literally do anything they wish because they are saved. The OSAS doctrine substantiates that claim. Once you're saved, you will always be saved, no matter what.
.

Yes, I've had people ask if that's what OSAS means. It's a misunderstanding of OSAS, but it's a conclusion they can reach very easily.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Excuse me please but "unconditional election" is God's choosing of the one to be saved isn't conditioned by anything in them. In other words, Salvation is all God.

Not even faith?

You're touching on the fundamental flaw in the OSAS/ predetemined believers doctrines in the church.

Out of a fear of making the gospel a 'works' gospel, even believing has been ripped out of the hands of the saved person. I only ask that someone please show me where Paul, or anybody in the Bible, says that even the 'work' of believing is a damnable work of self-righteousness. Then I will show you where it is the very 'work' we're commanded to do to be justified/ saved.

 

[Chopper]

If one believes they are saved and will always be saved, there would be no reason to repent after salvation because one could never lose salvation. I have heard proponents of OSAS state that after one is saved, they can literally do anything they wish because they are saved. The OSAS doctrine substantiates that claim. Once you're saved, you will always be saved, no matter what.
.

Just what kind of a life would that person have if they lived like you just said. Guess what? If someone thought they were saved for always, and did whatever they wanted? They are deceived!! They are not saved at all. You can't live like that and be considered a true believer in Christ. Check out the "sin unto death" if a person did live doing anything he/she wanted to do? If they are a believer, they won't live long. God is not about to let a believer like that ruin His reputation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Probably my last comment in this thread.

I know it's frustrating when the church rejects plain words of the Bible in favor of 'itching ear' doctrines that have embedded themselves in the church (I don't blame them directly), but don't leave out of that frustration.

The way this works is you keep tossing the seed (as long as you're not tossing it to pigs--those who then seek to tear you to pieces). They won't acknowledge the truth in these forums. And that's okay. I'm all for guarding the dignity of all men. But I know from my own experience that one of those seeds of truth will get lodged in a person's heart. If underneath all the gruff they really are truly seeking the truth it will begin to take root, and in the privacy of their hearts and minds it will spring forth and they will adapt their personal beliefs accordingly. These people where the plain words of the Bible did eventually take root and came to fruition, will be the crown of joy you will have in heaven (1 Thessalonians 2:19-20 NASB).

Some of those seeds that did that in me were, for example John 6:29, Matthew 5:17 (as they relate to the topics they address). So don't get discouraged, just keep feeding the church the word of God that they probably aren't getting anywhere else. There's little to no reward for it in this life (but lots of abuse), but there is great reward for it in the life to come.

 

[Chopper]

Not even faith?

You're touching on the fundamental flaw in the OSAS/ predetemined believers doctrines in the church.

Out of a fear of making the gospel a 'works' gospel, even beleiving has been ripped out of the hands of the saved person. I only ask that someone please show me where Paul, or anybody in the Bible, says even to believe is a damnable work of self-righteousness. Then I will show you where it is the very 'work' we're commanded to do to be justified/ saved.

Don't put your words into my statements Jethro. I have already stated that the person who is predetermined to be saved, must come to Christ just like everyone else. I don't know where you get these ideas from, certainly not me! Salvation is by faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the Cross. EVERYONE must believe the Gospel, repent of their sin, call upon the Lord to be saved, and receive what Christ has done, then be Baptized. That includes everyone with absolutely no exception. Is that clear? or do you want more info. I'll be glad to cooperate.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro, I'll clarify anything you want. It just irritated me that I had previously entered Scripture to prove my points, and you were asking for them again. I don't like having to repeat myself.

Go ahead, what would you like me to prove from the Scriptures. Please list each one and I will answer each one.

Okay, good. This is what I was looking for, an explanation of the scriptures you posted.

Help me see how Ephesians 1 is not written to me (for the sake of your argument, I'm of the general call group).

And without me searching it out ahead of time, help me see that the 144,000 are predetermined to believe and obey and are not of the general call group.

This will help me understand your argument. I do this repeatedly in this forum for those discussing my doctrines. In fact, I probably do it to a fault.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Don't put your words into my statements Jethro. I have already stated that the person who is predetermined to be saved, must come to Christ just like everyone else. I don't know where you get these ideas from, certainly not me! Salvation is by faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the Cross. EVERYONE must believe the Gospel, repent of their sin, call upon the Lord to be saved, and receive what Christ has done, then be Baptized. That includes everyone with absolutely no exception. Is that clear? or do you want more info. I'll be glad to cooperate.

No, it's not clear, because you did not understand the question (it's a question, not the putting of words put into your mouth).

Why does your doctrine, if I understand your statement correctly, not acknowledge that the 'believing' in salvation comes from the person, not from God?

To get my point across, I ask you, "did God do your believing for you?" Is that how utterly of God salvation is?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Butch, whoever told you that the predestined are automatically saved? Do you have Scripture to that effect?

Chopper, I think the someone you are referring to in your other post says the outcome is automatic. Salvation being a vehicle that is set on autopilot and can not be reprogrammed for those who are 'predestined' for salvation.