Do you support OSAS(once saved always saved)?

[Jethro Bodine]

So where did we have differing views?

Before I answer that I'd like to review our discussion to avoid any further misunderstanding.


But to continue: The point that I made from Galatians is even more clear in Colossians:

The Colossians are saved:

"2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae..." (Colossians 1:2 NASB)

"...we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus..." (Colossians 1:4 NASB)

"...the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth..." (Colossians 1:5 NASB)
(Notice the parallel to Galatians)

"...since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth..." (Colossians 1:6 NASB)

21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, ..." (Colossians 1:21 NASB)



Then Paul says this to these faithful, saved brethren and saints now reconciled to Jesus Christ:

"...in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard..." (Colossians 1:21-23 NASB)

Paul is making it very clear. These saved people will be presented holy and blameless to God at the resurrection IF they continue in the faith they have and stay firm and steadfast in the hope they have received through the preaching of the gospel.

The hope they have is conditioned on their continued believing. And if they stop believing it doesn't mean they were never saved to begin with (we see clearly they are indeed saved). It means they forfeit the hope which they heard about and received in the gospel. Two things that OSAS says are not true, but which we see are very true.

 

[Deborah13]

Has nothing to do with Calvin,it was just a simple question.....When we accept Christ in our live's,we become saved,dosn't mean we become perfect,for as long as we are in the flesh,we will sin.....That is the purpose of repenting,it dosn't mean one get's saved again,else you crucify Christ anew.....However you can't keep on sinning,without repenting,and expect to remain saved....Thus my question,why do we need to repent,if we are always saved,point being,it's not possible,meaning OSAO,isn't either......

Stated very clearly and without being rude.
So are you saying that the only reason to repent, change your mind and therefore your actions will follow, is only so that you will be remain saved?

It is true for salvation and sanctification but also......
For me repenting or not is the difference in keeping a clear conscious in order to remain in communion with the Lord. How does one face someone that they have wronged? How does one speak openly and honestly with someone they have hurt? How does one speak to one they should honor while they are in disagreement? How does one look face to face with the Lord when they are ashamed? How does one ask this same one for help when their relationship is in this condition?

Hopefully someday the Lord can say that I am not just His wayward child but also His friend.

 

[Deborah13]

Before I answer that I'd like to review our discussion to avoid any further misunderstanding.

No, I want to discuss scripture with you. We have not agreed yet on what we came up with in Galatians and jumping around can just confuse things.

But to continue: The point that I made from Galatians is even more clear in Colossians:

The Colossians are saved:

"2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae..." (Colossians 1:2 NASB)

"...we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus..." (Colossians 1:4 NASB)

"...the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth..." (Colossians 1:5 NASB)
(Notice the parallel to Galatians)

"...since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth..." (Colossians 1:6 NASB)

21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, ..." (Colossians 1:21 NASB)


Then Paul says this to these faithful, saved brethren and saints now reconciled to Jesus Christ:

"...in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard..." (Colossians 1:21-23 NASB)

Paul is making it very clear. These saved people will be presented holy and blameless to God at the resurrection IF they continue in the faith they have and stay firm and steadfast in the hope they have received through the preaching of the gospel.

The hope they have is conditioned on their continued believing. And if they stop believing it doesn't mean they were never saved to begin with (we see clearly they are indeed saved). It means they forfeit the hope which they heard about and received in the gospel. Two things that OSAS says are not true, but which we see are very true.

 

[Chopper]

I'm not challenging your belief that the gospel must be believed. Nobody is that I know of.

What I'm asking you is, "did God do your believing for you?" Is that how utterly of God salvation is?

Don't you see the significance of my questions? I will explain it to you if you don't see.

Hey old Buddy, I think it's the way you pose your comment or question that throws me off.

Let's see if I can answer this; the answer to; did God do my believing, NO! The only thing God did, was to chose me as an individual. God does choose some to be a part of His remnant. Each person that He chooses must at some point in their life chose Him. It is not automatic. Lets say that God chose me before the world began, OK? Now, I was born July 17th 1940 it was my natural birth. I was a sinner, because I inherited a sin nature from Adam, you with me? Now, because I was chosen specifically by God, the Grace of Salvation was irresistible to me. Unfortunately, I put off Salvation until 1974. At the age of 34 I walked into a Baptist Church in Portland, Maine, heard the Gospel for the first time. I chose to believe the Gospel, that the preacher was presenting and experienced my Spiritual Birth.

Now, the only difference between me and a person that God has not chosen to be a part of the remnant is this....Now I have to be careful here because we are speaking about Holy Things. It is my thinking that this person who has not been "chosen" like me, goes about his/her normal life. I think, since God is not willing that this person should perish, He sees to it that this person hears the Gospel. Because God did not "choose" this individual, He still wants him/her to be saved.

As this person travels thru time, God has provided many times for him/her to hear the Gospel. The Scripture says that there is power to save a person in the massage of the Gospel, right? Now just like me, this person has the choice to accept or reject the Gospel. Now, I will admit to a difference (this is when I have to be careful) between the power of God to save this person and me. It is this; The call of the Holy Spirit to me was irresistible, I could have rejected it but didn't, because it was what I wanted deep inside of me....Now, this other person is not experiencing that irresistible call, He/She is coming in contact with someone who is preaching the Gospel. That is what God set up for that person, that they would hear the Gospel. Now there is enough power in the Gospel message to call that person to Salvation. Just like me, there is a decision to make, accept or reject.

You say, why the irresistible call to me and not the other person? Good question! Since God is not willing that any person on the planet perish at any time since time began, He needed to have people to represent Him to all others. You know the problems that Israel had. Initially, God wanted them to show the world that Yahweh was the only God that anyone could ever want. That turned out to be a disaster because Israel kept Yahweh to themselves and pride took over and Israel was out.

Since God already knew that Israel would fail to be His ambassadors, He chose men and women before the world came into being, to be a remnant of followers who would faithfully carry out God's plan for the Salvation of mankind. Now because God Almighty chose the remnant, he cannot fail to keep them on His side as a witness. There is no failure with God, only mankind fails. Praise God that He always has another plan, just with different folk than Israel.

OK, questions?

 

[gr8grace3]

Before I answer that I'd like to review our discussion to avoid any further misunderstanding.


But to continue: The point that I made from Galatians is even more clear in Colossians:

The Colossians are saved:

"2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae..." (Colossians 1:2 NASB)

"...we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus..." (Colossians 1:4 NASB)

"...the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth..." (Colossians 1:5 NASB)
(Notice the parallel to Galatians)

"...since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth..." (Colossians 1:6 NASB)

21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, ..." (Colossians 1:21 NASB)

Then Paul says this to these faithful, saved brethren and saints now reconciled to Jesus Christ:

"...in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard..." (Colossians 1:21-23 NASB)

Paul is making it very clear. These saved people will be presented holy and blameless to God at the resurrection IF they continue in the faith they have and stay firm and steadfast in the hope they have received through the preaching of the gospel.

The hope they have is conditioned on their continued believing. And if they stop believing it doesn't mean they were never saved to begin with (we see clearly they are indeed saved). It means they forfeit the hope which they heard about and received in the gospel. Two things that OSAS says are not true, but which we see are very true.

The conditional clause in verses 23, "If indeed" is tied to the nearest antecedent. And It is "The future presentation of the believer." It is not looking back in retrospect to the "past reconciliation of the believer."

The condition is the quality of the presentation not the fact of it happening or not.

Some believers will not be presented to the Lord Blameless and beyond reproach.

1 Cor 5:5~~I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Cor 3:15~~If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

I actually completely agree with your above post. they are saved and if they continue with the faith they will be presented holy and blameless. And if they don't, they will lose their subjective hope and their future presentation will be less than stellar. They never lost their presentation though.

 

[WIP]

Hey old Buddy, I think it's the way you pose your comment or question that throws me off.

Let's see if I can answer this; the answer to; did God do my believing, NO! The only thing God did, was to chose me as an individual. God does choose some to be a part of His remnant. Each person that He chooses must at some point in their life chose Him. It is not automatic. Lets say that God chose me before the world began, OK? Now, I was born July 17th 1940 it was my natural birth. I was a sinner, because I inherited a sin nature from Adam, you with me? Now, because I was chosen specifically by God, the Grace of Salvation was irresistible to me. Unfortunately, I put off Salvation until 1974. At the age of 34 I walked into a Baptist Church in Portland, Maine, heard the Gospel for the first time. I chose to believe the Gospel, that the preacher was presenting and experienced my Spiritual Birth.

Now, the only difference between me and a person that God has not chosen to be a part of the remnant is this....Now I have to be careful here because we are speaking about Holy Things. It is my thinking that this person who has not been "chosen" like me, goes about his/her normal life. I think, since God is not willing that this person should perish, He sees to it that this person hears the Gospel. Because God did not "choose" this individual, He still wants him/her to be saved.

As this person travels thru time, God has provided many times for him/her to hear the Gospel. The Scripture says that there is power to save a person in the massage of the Gospel, right? Now just like me, this person has the choice to accept or reject the Gospel. Now, I will admit to a difference (this is when I have to be careful) between the power of God to save this person and me. It is this; The call of the Holy Spirit to me was irresistible, I could have rejected it but didn't, because it was what I wanted deep inside of me....Now, this other person is not experiencing that irresistible call, He/She is coming in contact with someone who is preaching the Gospel. That is what God set up for that person, that they would hear the Gospel. Now there is enough power in the Gospel message to call that person to Salvation. Just like me, there is a decision to make, accept or reject.

You say, why the irresistible call to me and not the other person? Good question! Since God is not willing that any person on the planet perish at any time since time began, He needed to have people to represent Him to all others. You know the problems that Israel had. Initially, God wanted them to show the world that Yahweh was the only God that anyone could ever want. That turned out to be a disaster because Israel kept Yahweh to themselves and pride took over and Israel was out.

Since God already knew that Israel would fail to be His ambassadors, He chose men and women before the world came into being, to be a remnant of followers who would faithfully carry out God's plan for the Salvation of mankind. Now because God Almighty chose the remnant, he cannot fail to keep them on His side as a witness. There is no failure with God, only mankind fails. Praise God that He always has another plan, just with different folk than Israel.

OK, questions?

Hi Chopper. I'm a little confused so I'm trying to understand what you just wrote a little more clearly. You indicate that God doesn't choose everyone before the world began and yet God wants everyone to be saved.

Now, let me see if I understand correctly. Please bear with me as I am not trying to sound sarcastic although it may sound like it.

For those whom God has chosen since the beginning of time God will present them with the Gospel, the Holy Spirit will call, they will find the calling irresistible, and they will either choose or reject it.

This is different from someone that has not been chosen since the beginning of time. For them, God presents them with the gospel, the Holy Spirit calls, and in contrast to all the worldly temptation, human weakness, and desire they must either choose to accept it or reject it.

A couple thoughts/questions come out of this in my mind.

1. It seems you are saying those that have not been chosen need to respond just as those who are chosen.
2. The person that was not called and yet accepts the Gospel does it against all odds. This sure seems like an irresistible calling.
3. How does a chosen person know they were chosen rather than being one of the non-chosen who gave in to the irresistible calling of the Holy Spirit?

The concern that I have with #3 (I'm speaking generally here and in no way slinging accusation) is that even a called person is subject to human emotion and weakness which could result in the sin of pride getting in the way. In other words, they could think more highly of themselves because, "I was called." I have experienced this.

Your thoughts?

 

[Deborah13]

Hi Chopper. I'm a little confused so I'm trying to understand what you just wrote a little more clearly. You indicate that God doesn't choose everyone before the world began and yet God wants everyone to be saved.

Now, let me see if I understand correctly. Please bear with me as I am not trying to sound sarcastic although it may sound like it.

For those whom God has chosen since the beginning of time God will present them with the Gospel, the Holy Spirit will call, they will find the calling irresistible, and they will either choose or reject it.

This is different from someone that has not been chosen since the beginning of time. For them, God presents them with the gospel, the Holy Spirit calls, and in contrast to all the worldly temptation, human weakness, and desire they must either choose to accept it or reject it.

A couple thoughts/questions come out of this in my mind.

1. It seems you are saying those that have not been chosen need to respond just as those who are chosen.
2. The person that was not called and yet accepts the Gospel does it against all odds. This sure seems like an irresistible calling.
3. How does a chosen person know they were chosen rather than being one of the non-chosen who gave in to the irresistible calling of the Holy Spirit?

The concern that I have with #3 (I'm speaking generally here and in no way slinging accusation) is that even a called person is subject to human emotion and weakness which could result in the sin of pride getting in the way. In other words, they could think more highly of themselves because, "I was called." I have experienced this.

Your thoughts?

I would think we also need to define "irresistible". That means one Cannot resist. So the one who is called does not really have a choice because they Cannot resist the call.

 

[WIP]

That's partly why I was asking. If it is not possible for the chosen to resist then it is not possible to choose to accept or deny. Making the choice to be saved then is not even an option.

 

[JLB]

Hey old Buddy, I think it's the way you pose your comment or question that throws me off.

Let's see if I can answer this; the answer to; did God do my believing, NO! The only thing God did, was to chose me as an individual. God does choose some to be a part of His remnant. Each person that He chooses must at some point in their life chose Him. It is not automatic. Lets say that God chose me before the world began, OK? Now, I was born July 17th 1940 it was my natural birth. I was a sinner, because I inherited a sin nature from Adam, you with me? Now, because I was chosen specifically by God, the Grace of Salvation was irresistible to me. Unfortunately, I put off Salvation until 1974. At the age of 34 I walked into a Baptist Church in Portland, Maine, heard the Gospel for the first time. I chose to believe the Gospel, that the preacher was presenting and experienced my Spiritual Birth.

Now, the only difference between me and a person that God has not chosen to be a part of the remnant is this....Now I have to be careful here because we are speaking about Holy Things. It is my thinking that this person who has not been "chosen" like me, goes about his/her normal life. I think, since God is not willing that this person should perish, He sees to it that this person hears the Gospel. Because God did not "choose" this individual, He still wants him/her to be saved.

As this person travels thru time, God has provided many times for him/her to hear the Gospel. The Scripture says that there is power to save a person in the massage of the Gospel, right? Now just like me, this person has the choice to accept or reject the Gospel. Now, I will admit to a difference (this is when I have to be careful) between the power of God to save this person and me. It is this; The call of the Holy Spirit to me was irresistible, I could have rejected it but didn't, because it was what I wanted deep inside of me....Now, this other person is not experiencing that irresistible call, He/She is coming in contact with someone who is preaching the Gospel. That is what God set up for that person, that they would hear the Gospel. Now there is enough power in the Gospel message to call that person to Salvation. Just like me, there is a decision to make, accept or reject.

You say, why the irresistible call to me and not the other person? Good question! Since God is not willing that any person on the planet perish at any time since time began, He needed to have people to represent Him to all others. You know the problems that Israel had. Initially, God wanted them to show the world that Yahweh was the only God that anyone could ever want. That turned out to be a disaster because Israel kept Yahweh to themselves and pride took over and Israel was out.

Since God already knew that Israel would fail to be His ambassadors, He chose men and women before the world came into being, to be a remnant of followers who would faithfully carry out God's plan for the Salvation of mankind. Now because God Almighty chose the remnant, he cannot fail to keep them on His side as a witness. There is no failure with God, only mankind fails. Praise God that He always has another plan, just with different folk than Israel.

OK, questions?

Hi Chopper.

I would like to add something here along the lines of "predestination".

Paul writes -

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:2-6

The phrase I want to expound upon is He chose us in Him...

As far as the elect, they are elect because God saw who would choose His gift of Salvation through the sacrifice of His Son, before the foundation of the world.

In others words, God through His foreknowledge chose us In Christ.

He didn't choose anyone outside of Christ.

Jesus Christ is the Elect One.

"Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. Isaiah 42:1

Predestination and election is based on Jesus Christ, and those who are in Him.

You are elect because you are in Him.

You are in Him because you believe the Gospel message.

God foresaw who would chose to believe beforehand and chose them in Christ.

as the scripture says -

...just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself,

It seems that some teach that the predestined ones are a special group of people who were chosen by God to inherit salvation, and they can not fail at being saved.

This is simply not what the whole counsel of the scriptures teach.


JLB

 

[Chopper]

Hi Chopper.

I would like to add something here along the lines of "predestination".

Paul writes -

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:2-6

The phrase I want to expound upon is He chose us in Him...

As far as the elect, they are elect because God saw who would choose His gift of Salvation through the sacrifice of His Son, before the foundation of the world.

In others words, God through His foreknowledge chose us In Christ.

He didn't choose anyone outside of Christ.

Jesus Christ is the Elect One.

"Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. Isaiah 42:1

Predestination and election is based on Jesus Christ, and those who are in Him.

You are elect because you are in Him.

You are in Him because you believe the Gospel message.

God foresaw who would chose to believe beforehand and chose them in Christ.

as the scripture says -

...just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself,

It seems that some teach that the predestined ones are a special group of people who were chosen by God to inherit salvation, and they can not fail at being saved.

This is simply not what the whole counsel of the scriptures teach.

JLB

I agree with most of what you said. There is something you might want to consider. I personally don't believe that God looked into the future to see who would respond to the Gospel. I believe that He chose these people based on Him alone. God's prophets spoke of events that would happen in the future. Every one of them happened! Now there are people who believe that God simply planned all those events to take place. Then He placed those events in the prophets mind and they prophesied.

Now, this is what I'd like you to consider. It is my opinion that if what I just said were true, it would present to my mind a very weak God, Who was incapable of foretelling events with no knowledge of the future. That is an all powerful God! Same thing with the elect. He chose them without any future knowledge that they would respond. His power and authority caused them to respond. Same thing with the ones who are saved by the General Call of the Gospel, God placed power into the Gospel message so that the ones who would hear had an excellent chance to respond.

I have to believe that God is so powerful that He can predict the future without first looking into the future to see what would happen. To me, that would be cheating. We are supposed to believe in a God with limitless power and authority, and I believe that with all my heart.

 

[Gary]

Just in case you missed this.

Just what kind of a life would that person have if they lived like you just said. Guess what? If someone thought they were saved for always, and did whatever they wanted? They are deceived!! They are not saved at all. You can't live like that and be considered a true believer in Christ. Check out the "sin unto death" if a person did live doing anything he/she wanted to do? If they are a believer, they won't live long. God is not about to let a believer like that ruin His reputation.

So when exactly is an individual actually saved? When does an individual pass from unsaved to saved?
.

 

[Chopper]

Just in case you missed this.

Gary my friend, that is almost impossible to answer. I have seen men and women who I thought were saved. Just to watch them walk away from the narrow road and not give it a second look. I would say, "You know that is against what God would have you to do" they would reply "I don't care, I doing it anyway". And I would never see that person again.

Look at Matthew 7:21-23.
Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Wow, only when people are faced with Jesus at the resurrection and Great White Throne, will we know for sure who was truly saved.

 

[JLB]

I agree with most of what you said. There is something you might want to consider. I personally don't believe that God looked into the future to see who would respond to the Gospel. I believe that He chose these people based on Him alone. God's prophets spoke of events that would happen in the future. Every one of them happened! Now there are people who believe that God simply planned all those events to take place. Then He placed those events in the prophets mind and they prophesied.

Now, this is what I'd like you to consider. It is my opinion that if what I just said were true, it would present to my mind a very weak God, Who was incapable of foretelling events with no knowledge of the future. That is an all powerful God! Same thing with the elect. He chose them without any future knowledge that they would respond. His power and authority caused them to respond. Same thing with the ones who are saved by the General Call of the Gospel, God placed power into the Gospel message so that the ones who would hear had an excellent chance to respond.

I have to believe that God is so powerful that He can predict the future without first looking into the future to see what would happen. To me, that would be cheating. We are supposed to believe in a God with limitless power and authority, and I believe that with all my heart.

The reason the things happened, is that God foresaw them happening, just as God foresaw those who would believe, and He chose them in Him [Christ], the Elect One.

You are elect, because you are in The Elect One.

You are not elect, outside of The Elect One.

Once you have that unshakable foundation of Truth, then you can build successfully upon that.


JLB

 

[Mike S]

Gary my friend, that is almost impossible to answer. I have seen men and women who I thought were saved. Just to watch them walk away from the narrow road and not give it a second look. I would say, "You know that is against what God would have you to do" they would reply "I don't care, I doing it anyway". And I would never see that person again.

Look at Matthew 7:21-23.
Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Wow, only when people are faced with Jesus at the resurrection and Great White Throne, will we know for sure who was truly saved.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. - Philippians 2:12

Believe me, there are times when the fear and trembling part is very real.

 

[Chopper]

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. - Philippians 2:12

Believe me, there are times when the fear and trembling part is very real.

 

[Deborah13]

Gary my friend, that is almost impossible to answer. I have seen men and women who I thought were saved. Just to watch them walk away from the narrow road and not give it a second look. I would say, "You know that is against what God would have you to do" they would reply "I don't care, I doing it anyway". And I would never see that person again.

So I have questions again.
1)Did they say to you that they wanted to reject their salvation and that they didn't care?
2)Or did they say they were going to Do some sin that you told them was against what God would want them to do and they said they did care they were going to do it anyway?
3)And because you never saw them again does that mean they never walked with the Lord again?

Look at Matthew 7:21-23.
Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Wow, only when people are faced with Jesus at the resurrection and Great White Throne, will we know for sure who was truly saved.

 

[Gary]

Gary my friend, that is almost impossible to answer. I have seen men and women who I thought were saved. Just to watch them walk away from the narrow road and not give it a second look. I would say, "You know that is against what God would have you to do" they would reply "I don't care, I doing it anyway". And I would never see that person again.

Look at Matthew 7:21-23.
Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Wow, only when people are faced with Jesus at the resurrection and Great White Throne, will we know for sure who was truly saved.

Your statement there kinda puts the kibosh on the OSAS belief.

There's a very important message in that passage from Matthew and most people just gloss over it or ignore it all together.

It is my belief that salvation isn't determined until after the last breath of the individual.
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[JLB]

Gary said -

So when exactly is an individual actually saved?

At the end of their faith.

receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

If you still have faith, then you have not obtained the reality of the thing you are hoping for [Salvation].

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

and again -

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
Romans 8:24-25

and again -

3 We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of your love for all the saints; 5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, Colossians 1:3-5

The reality of our hope is the Salvation of our souls.

If you still have faith, then you haven't received the thing you are hoping for.


So when exactly are we saved?

When we hear these words and see the One who is speaking them - Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31-34


There are many who think that they will hears these words, but will hear these...

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 24:41


JLB

 

[JLB]

So I have questions again.
1)Did they say to you that they wanted to reject their salvation and that they didn't care?
2)Or did they say they were going to Do some sin that you told them was against what God would want them to do and they said they did care they were going to do it anyway?
3)And because you never saw them again does that mean they never walked with the Lord again?

These are the exact questions that went through my mind when I saw this post!

Well said Deb!

 

[Mike S]

So I have questions again.
1)Did they say to you that they wanted to reject their salvation and that they didn't care?
2)Or did they say they were going to Do some sin that you told them was against what God would want them to do and they said they did care they were going to do it anyway?
3)And because you never saw them again does that mean they never walked with the Lord again?

Do you think we really know those answers, most of the time? It's tragic when someone goes through this, but we can hope it's not permanent...a crisis of faith, a dark night of the soul. Sometimes we can be there for them, and sometimes they have a more lonely journey.